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So the quebecois vs. Europeans debate is brought back again...

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Old
03-03-2007, 01:30 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I agree.

Whether there is such thing as local player intensity or not, the problem is simply a question of demographics. With the globalization of hockey, the Habs would be shooting themselves in the foot to disproportionately look for what local (quebecois? canadian ?) hockey players are left on the market while other teams go after the top talent everywhere in the world.

Here a 3 Football League Championships:

1) Spain:
1st place- F.C. Barcelone: 15 foreign players
Last place- Nastic Tarragona: 7 foreign players

2) Italy:
1st place-Inter Milan: 21 foreign players
Last place- Ascoli: 8 foreign players

3) France:
1st place- Lyons: 12 foreign players
Last place- Sedan: 7 foreign players


Habs management would act at their own peril to follow the advice of a couple of whiners on 110% who make Don Cherry look like the Humanitarian of the Year Award Winner.
+1

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03-03-2007, 01:38 PM
  #52
Claimed Off Waivers
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Where exactly are people getting this notion that Don Cherry hates Quebecers? Is it that incident on HNIC 3 years ago? He likes Yanic Perreault, Martin Lapointe, Ian Lapperiere, Vincent Lecavalier, Daniel Briere, Andre Roy, Martin Brodeur, Guy Lafleur, Mario Tremblay, Mario Lemieux, and Gilles Gilbert to name a few.

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03-03-2007, 01:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BAOT View Post
+1
If we would have Ovechkin, Forsberg, Sundin, Malkin, Chara and Kovalchuk instead of Samsonov, Kovalev, Perezhogin, Niinimmaa, Koivu and Bonk, nobody would complain... We have bad or average European players. That's all.

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03-03-2007, 01:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I agree.

Whether there is such thing as local player intensity or not, the problem is simply a question of demographics. With the globalization of hockey, the Habs would be shooting themselves in the foot to disproportionately look for what local (quebecois? canadian ?) hockey players are left on the market while other teams go after the top talent everywhere in the world.

Here a 3 Football League Championships:

1) Spain:
1st place- F.C. Barcelone: 15 foreign players
Last place- Nastic Tarragona: 7 foreign players

2) Italy:
1st place-Inter Milan: 21 foreign players
Last place- Ascoli: 8 foreign players

3) France:
1st place- Lyons: 12 foreign players
Last place- Sedan: 7 foreign players


Habs management would act at their own peril to follow the advice of a couple of whiners on 110% who make Don Cherry look like the Humanitarian of the Year Award Winner.
They have the money to afford the BEST ! Nobody in Montreal would complain if we would have Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Chara, Lidstrom or Forsberg (to name a few) instead of Samsonov, Kovalev, Perezhogin, Aebishear, Niinimaa or Bonk !

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03-03-2007, 01:51 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I agree.

Whether there is such thing as local player intensity or not, the problem is simply a question of demographics. With the globalization of hockey, the Habs would be shooting themselves in the foot to disproportionately look for what local (quebecois? canadian ?) hockey players are left on the market while other teams go after the top talent everywhere in the world.

Here a 3 Football League Championships:

1) Spain:
1st place- F.C. Barcelone: 15 foreign players
Last place- Nastic Tarragona: 7 foreign players

2) Italy:
1st place-Inter Milan: 21 foreign players
Last place- Ascoli: 8 foreign players

3) France:
1st place- Lyons: 12 foreign players
Last place- Sedan: 7 foreign players


Habs management would act at their own peril to follow the advice of a couple of whiners on 110% who make Don Cherry look like the Humanitarian of the Year Award Winner.
Barcelona is built around Carles Puyol, he's the heart and soul of team and not only spanish, but catalan. Add to this Xavi, victor valdes and iniesta. the club has had for years traditions of briniging in the best brazilian players and dutch ones before that. they've stayed true to their identity, and when a player puts on the shirt he knows what the stakes are.

I understand the nature of your comparison, but in european football, the richest teams usually has the most foreign players, because they're the most expensive. So it's no coincidence that the teams in last place has more local players, it's no indication of performance or a correlation between local and success but of financial means.

The economics are completly different, they don't have a CBA or a draft like we do and it's in no way as regulated as the NHL. It's therefore really hard to establish a credible comparison between the NHL and european football.

But let's do it anyway, for the sake of it's saturday afternoon and i'm too lazy to go shovel my driveway.

Lyon: tons of brazilians, built around juninho, emblematic, not moody, best FK taker in europe probably. they've won five straight championships, formed some of the best players to come out of France formation centres. The team has an identity and stays true to it and has built around true talent over the years, although it's not as deep a tradition as the other two you've mentionned.

Inter Milan : One of the richest club in europe and it has a tradition of brigning in foreign players. The other italian clubs at the time didn't want to hire foreignt players, so some people decided to create a new club and call it... Internazionale de Milano.

Barcelona I already told you about.

My point is that these teams stay true to their roots and traditions, and ours happen to be a local flavoured one, that's all i'm saying.

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03-03-2007, 01:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HABS456 View Post
No. Signing Theo to the awful contract was much worse.
Theo was, or at least had been, an elite goalie.

Bouillon was never more than a #5 or 6 d-man.

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03-03-2007, 01:55 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I agree.

Whether there is such thing as local player intensity or not, the problem is simply a question of demographics. With the globalization of hockey, the Habs would be shooting themselves in the foot to disproportionately look for what local (quebecois? canadian ?) hockey players are left on the market while other teams go after the top talent everywhere in the world.

Here a 3 Football League Championships:

1) Spain:
1st place- F.C. Barcelone: 15 foreign players
Last place- Nastic Tarragona: 7 foreign players

2) Italy:
1st place-Inter Milan: 21 foreign players
Last place- Ascoli: 8 foreign players

3) France:
1st place- Lyons: 12 foreign players
Last place- Sedan: 7 foreign players


Habs management would act at their own peril to follow the advice of a couple of whiners on 110% who make Don Cherry look like the Humanitarian of the Year Award Winner.
Sorry bro, but this point is stupid.

The reason those 1st place teams have more Foreign players than the Last place teams is simple...Money.

Soccer is a very different game than hockey. Those last place teams have more hometown (country) players due to not having enough money to go out and signing bigger names. Hockey isn't that way.

Ps: This doesn't mean that I believe that we should get more NA players than Euros, it was just to say that you can't compare both sports given the financial side (In Soccer they don't go out to draft players, they sign them).

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03-03-2007, 02:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Sorry bro, but this point is stupid.

The reason those 1st place teams have more Foreign players than the Last place teams is simple...Money.

Soccer is a very different game than hockey. Those last place teams have more hometown (country) players due to not having enough money to go out and signing bigger names. Hockey isn't that way.

Ps: This doesn't mean that I believe that we should get more NA players than Euros, it was just to say that you can't compare both sports given the financial side (In Soccer they don't go out to draft players, they sign them).
+1...

a lot of these transactions/transfers to acquire high priced foreign talent are simply monetary transfers... allowing the rich to get richer... our league owners have adopted a cap with parity in mind... we can't buy all the financailly challenged teams best players... it'd be nice if we could though.

the nhl is communal... most high profile soccer leagues are very captialist... ha ha

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03-03-2007, 02:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CHiggs View Post
Where exactly are people getting this notion that Don Cherry hates Quebecers? Is it that incident on HNIC 3 years ago? He likes Yanic Perreault, Martin Lapointe, Ian Lapperiere, Vincent Lecavalier, Daniel Briere, Andre Roy, Martin Brodeur, Guy Lafleur, Mario Tremblay, Mario Lemieux, and Gilles Gilbert to name a few.

why does NHL.com have Andre Roy listed that he was born in Port Chester, NY? is that just where he was born or is he American?

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03-03-2007, 02:11 PM
  #60
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It's sad but I think if we have no french canadians, we would have a better shot at winning. What are the chances of building a united international club agaisnt the odds of building a united half french-canadian/half international club? Of course there is going to big cliques as long that there is too much of a nation. The only solution is to keep the Russians and the french canadians apart on the ice:


Ryder - Koivu - Higgins
Samsonov - Kovalev - Perezhogin
Plekanec - Bonk - Johnson
Begin - Lapierre - Latendresse

Streit - Markov
Souray - Gorges
Dandenault - Bouillon

And the funniest part is, our french canadians players are almost all overpaid fourth-liners/third defensive pairs, did anyone notice that?

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03-03-2007, 02:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by slava View Post
why does NHL.com have Andre Roy listed that he was born in Port Chester, NY? is that just where he was born or is he American?
André Roy, like Bouillon and Brashear are born in the USA, but were raised in Quebec since their early childhood.

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03-03-2007, 02:15 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
Barcelona is built around Carles Puyol, he's the heart and soul of team and not only spanish, but catalan. Add to this Xavi, victor valdes and iniesta. the club has had for years traditions of briniging in the best brazilian players and dutch ones before that. they've stayed true to their identity, and when a player puts on the shirt he knows what the stakes are.

I agree
I understand the nature of your comparison, but in european football, the richest teams usually has the most foreign players, because they're the most expensive. So it's no coincidence that the teams in last place has more local players, it's no indication of performance or a correlation between local and success but of financial means.

I agree the richest teams usually have the most foreign players, because they're the most expensive. But they're not adding more expensive foreign players because they're more expensive, they're adding them because they are the players they feel will help their team the most.
(...)

My point is that these teams stay true to their roots and traditions, and ours happen to be a local flavoured one, that's all i'm saying.

No disagreement here

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03-03-2007, 02:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Iron Horse 4 View Post
+1...

a lot of these transactions/transfers to acquire high priced foreign talent are simply monetary transfers... allowing the rich to get richer... our league owners have adopted a cap with parity in mind... we can't buy all the financailly challenged teams best players... it'd be nice if we could though.

the nhl is communal... most high profile soccer leagues are very captialist... ha ha
That's not the whole thing. Soccer teams can go out and sign anyone...They don't have a draft to follow.

It's like if we would go out and sign Tavares right now and develop him until he was ready to play with the big club.

If we would use the same system as Soccer, we'd have Crosby. I'm starting to get bitter

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03-03-2007, 02:20 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
That's not the whole thing. Soccer teams can go out and sign anyone...They don't have a draft to follow.

It's like if we would go out and sign Tavares right now and develop him until he was ready to play with the big club.

If we would use the same system as Soccer, we'd have Crosby. I'm starting to get bitter
lol, i've had this fantasy too. Not good for any sane mind!

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03-03-2007, 02:26 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Sorry bro, but this point is stupid.

No

The reason those 1st place teams have more Foreign players than the Last place teams is simple...Money.

Agreed

Soccer is a very different game than hockey. Those last place teams have more hometown (country) players due to not having enough money to go out and signing bigger names. Hockey isn't that way.

Agreed

Ps: This doesn't mean that I believe that we should get more NA players than Euros, it was just to say that you can't compare both sports given the financial side (In Soccer they don't go out to draft players, they sign them).
Fine. But because a team has a bigger bankroll, it doesn't just spend money for the sake of spending money. It spends more money because it feels the extra money spent will better their club. And it doesn't go and get those foreign players ahead of the available local players because they want to have an exotic face to their club, but because they are the best players they can afford.

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03-03-2007, 02:27 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SpreeEndaz View Post
It's sad but I think if we have no french canadians, we would have a better shot at winning. What are the chances of building a united international club agaisnt the odds of building a united half french-canadian/half international club? Of course there is going to big cliques as long that there is too much of a nation. The only solution is to keep the Russians and the french canadians apart on the ice:


Ryder - Koivu - Higgins
Samsonov - Kovalev - Perezhogin
Plekanec - Bonk - Johnson
Begin - Lapierre - Latendresse

Streit - Markov
Souray - Gorges
Dandenault - Bouillon

And the funniest part is, our french canadians players are almost all overpaid fourth-liners/third defensive pairs, did anyone notice that?
Well, I don't see how Maxim Lapierre is overpaid, nor Steve Begin for all he can bring. As for Lats, well, his draft status and showing at preseason made it that he couldn't really be signed for lower than he was actually signed.

And Lats is really getting bashed on these boards. It was unrealistic to expect a 25 goals season, and he was drafted, and signed, mainly because he could bring something that no other player could bring - a big body presence. Whether that "something" is overvalued, we needed that big guy, but expecting Latendresse to play like Joe Thornton is at 27 makes absolutely no sense at all. He actually ended up having stats pretty much in line with Thornton's one at 19 - while having one season less under his belt at NHL level. Pretty nice when you consider Lats is a 45th draft pick, and Thornton a 1st.

For the record, I think Latendresse will end up being the player Brad Isbister or Alexei Ponikarovsky or even Chad Kilger (well, Kilger has insane foot speed for a guy of his size, but he also has the hockey sense of a Baboon, thus making Lats and Kilger completely different players) never were -- a 60 pts guy in average, playing on a 2nd line and sometimes a 1st during rough times, and that should score 20 goals about every year.

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03-03-2007, 02:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Fine. But because a team has a bigger bankroll, it doesn't just spend money for the sake of spending money. It spends more money because it feels the extra money spent will better their club. And it doesn't go and get those foreign players ahead of the available local players because they want to have an exotic face to their club, but because they are the best players they can afford.
And the whole "football" game is much less concerned with intangibles than hockey.

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03-03-2007, 02:31 PM
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Well, I don't see how Maxim Lapierre is overpaid, nor Steve Begin for all he can bring. As for Lats, well, his draft status and showing at preseason made it that he couldn't really be signed for lower than he was actually signed.

And Lats is really getting bashed on these boards. It was unrealistic to expect a 25 goals season, and he was drafted, and signed, mainly because he could bring something that no other player could bring - a big body presence. Whether that "something" is overvalued, we needed that big guy, but expecting Latendresse to play like Joe Thornton is at 27 makes absolutely no sense at all. He actually ended up having stats pretty much in line with Thornton's one at 19 - while having one season less under his belt at NHL level. Pretty nice when you consider Lats is a 45th draft pick, and Thornton a 1st.

For the record, I think Latendresse will end up being the player Brad Isbister or Alexei Ponikarovsky or even Chad Kilger (well, Kilger has insane foot speed for a guy of his size, but he also has the hockey sense of a Baboon, thus making Lats and Kilger completely different players) never were -- a 60 pts guy in average, playing on a 2nd line and sometimes a 1st during rough times, and that should score 20 goals about every year.

Eww, go take a shower. Thats a McGuire'ism.

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03-03-2007, 02:34 PM
  #69
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Eww, go take a shower. Thats a McGuire'ism.
I know this... but you have something else?
BTW, I'm french so Pierre McGuire, to me, is like a dark hole, although he seems to be such for english people anyways...

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03-03-2007, 02:36 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Fine. But because a team has a bigger bankroll, it doesn't just spend money for the sake of spending money. It spends more money because it feels the extra money spent will better their club. And it doesn't go and get those foreign players ahead of the available local players because they want to have an exotic face to their club, but because they are the best players they can afford.
Without a doubt, however...If we could go out and sign guys like Kovalchuk or Havlat or Ovechkin or what have you, before another team drafted him...This point would make sense.

But we're forced to get older, much worse euro's than what we could get if there wasn't a draft.

There also isn't any UFA/RFA bull ****.

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03-03-2007, 02:36 PM
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Well, I don't see how Maxim Lapierre is overpaid, nor Steve Begin for all he can bring. As for Lats, well, his draft status and showing at preseason made it that he couldn't really be signed for lower than he was actually signed.

And Lats is really getting bashed on these boards. It was unrealistic to expect a 25 goals season, and he was drafted, and signed, mainly because he could bring something that no other player could bring - a big body presence. Whether that "something" is overvalued, we needed that big guy, but expecting Latendresse to play like Joe Thornton is at 27 makes absolutely no sense at all. He actually ended up having stats pretty much in line with Thornton's one at 19 - while having one season less under his belt at NHL level. Pretty nice when you consider Lats is a 45th draft pick, and Thornton a 1st.

For the record, I think Latendresse will end up being the player Brad Isbister or Alexei Ponikarovsky or even Chad Kilger (well, Kilger has insane foot speed for a guy of his size, but he also has the hockey sense of a Baboon, thus making Lats and Kilger completely different players) never were -- a 60 pts guy in average, playing on a 2nd line and sometimes a 1st during rough times, and that should score 20 goals about every year.
Lapierre and Lats, we can't judge their low salary because they are still at rookie-entry level. For Begin, I think a lot of players in the league can do the same job for cheaper and Bouillon and Dandy are clearly overpaid.

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03-03-2007, 02:41 PM
  #72
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Lapierre and Lats, we can't judge their low salary because they are still at rookie-entry level. For Begin, I think a lot of players in the league can do the same job for cheaper and Bouillon and Dandy are clearly overpaid.
You're darn right. We should have a team with NO Quebec born players at all. They are useless and lazy, overpaid and over media hyped. And let's move the team to Hamilton, Winnipeg or Halifax and rename them the CanadiAns !!!

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03-03-2007, 02:42 PM
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You're darn right. We should have a team with NO Quebec born players at all. They are useless and lazy, overpaid and over media hyped. And let's move the team to Hamilton, Winnipeg or Halifax and rename them the CanadiAns !!!
Well, we need a united team and I don't see how it's possible while having french canadians thinking they are better than everyone because they are superstars in Montreal.

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03-03-2007, 02:48 PM
  #74
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Well, we need a united team and I don't see how it's possible while having french canadians thinking they are better than everyone because they are superstars in Montreal.
You are wrong. That is your interpretation because French media are chasing them all over the place. These guys don't think they are superior or anything. The media is just focusing too much on them. You should look elsewhere to find reasons for lack of unity. You should start with Kovalev and the Captain !

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03-03-2007, 02:49 PM
  #75
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Well, we need a united team and I don't see how it's possible while having french canadians thinking they are better than everyone because they are superstars in Montreal.
Well... Not quite Lapierre or Begin attitude at all, and the Lats benching lets us beleive that he isn't like this, either.

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