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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, expansion and relocation, and NHL revenues.

Shoalts on Expansion: At least 3 years away; Imbalance favors Seattle, Vegas

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04-17-2014, 04:17 PM
  #176
cutchemist42
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So how does this change with the recent Milwaukee news? In any way?

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04-17-2014, 04:22 PM
  #177
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So, does have anyone here have Trademark pending for Las Vegas Thunder or Las Vegas Rollers? You know, in case the NHL comes calling and they wish to "acquire" the trademark through negotiation?

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04-17-2014, 04:37 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
So how does this change with the recent Milwaukee news? In any way?
For Seattle ya, serious game changer. Last potential NBA (that were aware of) relocation off the table & expansion seemingly well beyond the horizon.... for the NHL a setback if indeed Seattle was seriously in-play which it certainly appeared to have been.... and no, Im having a real hard time taking Vegas even remotely serious... IMO, not happening. Its something that instills discussion, grabs peoples attention, and thatsexactly why Shoalts & others trot it out from time-time. New arena in Sin City notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So, does have anyone here have Trademark pending for Las Vegas Thunder or Las Vegas Rollers? You know, in case the NHL comes calling and they wish to "acquire" the trademark through negotiation?
Trademark Squatting huh?

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04-17-2014, 07:34 PM
  #179
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For Seattle ya, serious game changer. Last potential NBA (that were aware of) relocation off the table & expansion seemingly well beyond the horizon.... for the NHL a setback if indeed Seattle was seriously in-play which it certainly appeared to have been.... and no, Im having a real hard time taking Vegas even remotely serious... IMO, not happening. Its something that instills discussion, grabs peoples attention, and thatsexactly why Shoalts & others trot it out from time-time. New arena in Sin City notwithstanding.



Trademark Squatting huh?



As far as Vegas, I've said it before, I really would love to see the experiment of season tix owned by Casinos as part of hotel/gamble packages-of course losses of 10s of millions of dollars may be a poor excuse to satisfy my curiosit

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04-17-2014, 10:56 PM
  #180
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What about a cascadia team Seattle/Vancouver

21 games each

Split the risk in case or until they actually build a new arena in Seattle.

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04-17-2014, 11:09 PM
  #181
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^^^ I think you might have a hard time convincing the Aquilini's to do that, never mind the NHL & NHLPA.

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04-17-2014, 11:41 PM
  #182
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Revisionist history on Phoenix sure is fun. Revenues & attendance were growing at a rate consistent with the rest of the league before Jerry Moyes ran the team into the ground and made a mockery of the team via bankruptcy.

Fans stay away when the team is in bankruptcy. Saying Las Vegas would be a terrible hockey market because of what happened in Phoenix is like saying Butte, Montana would be a great market because, like Toronto, it's cold in the winter there.

The best comparison of NHL city for Las Vegas would be Nashville. Not Phoenix.

PHX - four-sport city (9th largest of the 12), with the shortest history of sports (1969 NBA, 1988 NFL, 1996 NHL, 1998 MLB)

NASH - one long-season sport franchise (NHL), medium-sized market of 1.7 million people (#36)
Vegas- NHL would be one long-season franchise, medium-sized market of 2.0 million people (#31)
Portland - one long-season sport franchise (NBA), medium sized market of 2.3 million people (#24)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Its funny to speak about population and NHL. What is a small market, what is a big market.

Its funny because the 30ish millions of potential viewers in Canada generate more revenue for the NHL than the 300ish millions of potential viewers in USA.
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Not really. There's a metric that can measure market potential and actual spending. From the Coyotes bankruptcy hearing, the NHL legal team disclosed that for each US fan, say that being 1.0 in value, a Canadian fan was worth 1.29-1.34-ish, going from memory. One of the megathreads vets can put in the exact metric as it was some years ago.
Which is all the more reason the NHL can easily support more teams than the NBA or MLB.

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Originally Posted by MarkMM View Post
Yeah, alignment is surely a consideration, but not likely the be-all and end-all.
I strongly suspect the NHL by 2030 will have 36 teams, 18 Eastern time zone, 18 non-Eastern Time Zone with Seattle, Las Vegas, Portland, Quebec, Houston and GTA2 (in that order).

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04-18-2014, 06:53 AM
  #183
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As far as Vegas, I've said it before, I really would love to see the experiment of season tix owned by Casinos as part of hotel/gamble packages-of course losses of 10s of millions of dollars may be a poor excuse to satisfy my curiosit
How could they ever develop a fan base, when all the tickets are given to Guests of the Casinos who stay a week or less? Melnyk thinks Ottawa atmosphere is bad for the home team when the Leaf fans take over his building. Why would a casino pay to take people away from the tables? The magic acts, the singers are one thing since they keep patrons in the building and for the most part can only be seen in Vegas. Backing a hockey team would be akin to offering free trips to the Grand Canyon and Hoover dam.

I can just see the owners of the Bellagio. Hey whats with all the buses out front...


Last edited by Confucius: 04-18-2014 at 07:05 AM.
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04-18-2014, 07:38 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Brick City View Post
Potential smoke and mirrors aside, it is disgusting that Las Vegas is even being considered before Quebec City. The Canadian teams need to form a voting alliance (one American team would also be needed - sure Toronto could get Buffalo on board) to block any 2 team expansion that does not include Quebec City. Especially when the second rumored candidate is so ridiculous that it should insult any halfway decent hockey market that is currently without a team.
I'm not sure Toronto and Buffalo would participate in this kind of activity.

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04-18-2014, 07:48 AM
  #185
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For what it's worth, on the Toronto FAN590 Bob McCown and a guest both spoke about how the Las Vegas and Seattle rumours won't go away and that they felt it was a "sooner than later" scenario. Again both acknowledged the NHLs denial that expansion discussions were seriously taking place.

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04-18-2014, 07:52 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Flukeshot View Post
Again both acknowledged the NHLs denial that expansion discussions were seriously taking place.
Even if they were taking place, they'd say that. Admitting anything weakens their bargaining position.

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04-18-2014, 08:37 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I strongly suspect the NHL by 2030 will have 36 teams, 18 Eastern time zone, 18 non-Eastern Time Zone with Seattle, Las Vegas, Portland, Quebec, Houston and GTA2 (in that order).
you honestly think that the league would prefer two vulnerable franchises in the PNW before it decides to reach down and pick up some of the billion dollars it has left on the table in hamilton/gta2? one maybe, but not two. its seattle or portland, not both. that would achieve nothing. and seattle's dreams got dumped with a big nba bucket of very cold lake michigan water this week.

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04-18-2014, 10:18 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
How could they ever develop a fan base, when all the tickets are given to Guests of the Casinos who stay a week or less? Melnyk thinks Ottawa atmosphere is bad for the home team when the Leaf fans take over his building. Why would a casino pay to take people away from the tables? The magic acts, the singers are one thing since they keep patrons in the building and for the most part can only be seen in Vegas. Backing a hockey team would be akin to offering free trips to the Grand Canyon and Hoover dam.

I can just see the owners of the Bellagio. Hey whats with all the buses out front...
The Bellagio comment seems a little out of whack, beings as it's owned and operated by MGM.

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04-18-2014, 10:37 AM
  #189
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Las Vegas shouldn't even be in any discussion - that idea is ridiculous.

There's a reason the NBA, NFL and MLB avoided that market - and those sports are more popular in Las Vegas than hockey is.

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04-18-2014, 11:14 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
Las Vegas shouldn't even be in any discussion - that idea is ridiculous.
Oh I agree, however its a useful Red Herring for the league & it generates hits, audiences for pundits, talk radio hosts etc.

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04-18-2014, 11:20 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you honestly think that the league would prefer two vulnerable franchises in the PNW before it decides to reach down and pick up some of the billion dollars it has left on the table in hamilton/gta2?
yes. look at history.

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04-18-2014, 11:34 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
How could they ever develop a fan base, when all the tickets are given to Guests of the Casinos who stay a week or less? Melnyk thinks Ottawa atmosphere is bad for the home team when the Leaf fans take over his building. Why would a casino pay to take people away from the tables? The magic acts, the singers are one thing since they keep patrons in the building and for the most part can only be seen in Vegas. Backing a hockey team would be akin to offering free trips to the Grand Canyon and Hoover dam.

I can just see the owners of the Bellagio. Hey whats with all the buses out front...
The atmosphere would really be dreadful for the team.

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04-18-2014, 11:37 AM
  #193
kmad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you honestly think that the league would prefer two vulnerable franchises in the PNW before it decides to reach down and pick up some of the billion dollars it has left on the table in hamilton/gta2? one maybe, but not two. its seattle or portland, not both. that would achieve nothing. and seattle's dreams got dumped with a big nba bucket of very cold lake michigan water this week.
The league has a track record of preferring growth over revenue.

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04-18-2014, 12:20 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Vancouver Blazers View Post
The league has a track record of preferring growth over revenue.
yes, and that has proven quite problematic in hindsight. regardless, how does putting teams in both seattle and portland achieve growth? the marginal return on growth by putting a second team in the PNW approaches zero. and nbc could care less.

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04-18-2014, 12:27 PM
  #195
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MGM announced breaking ground on their arena May 1.

This, of course, creates the new standard by which other public monies for arenas shall be extracted... unless the bluff is called and nobody has an answer, anyway.

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04-18-2014, 12:30 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
yes. look at history.
Ya, sadly that theory is entirely plausible MM. Another team in Southern Ontario, which could actually handle 2 more teams (Hamilton & somewhere in the northeasterly section ideal) along with Quebec would seriously affect the Cap. Water rising in the basement causing some serious problems for at least 10 teams or more. If the Leafs werent so incompetent, a powerhouse with Conference Final appearances, actual Final appearances & dare to dream winning a Cup, the amount of $$$ that would generate in & of itself would cause no end of problems to the leagues entirely artificial economic model. So imagine adding one or two right out of the box financial juggernauts in Southern Ontario to the mix, and Man, youve got a serious problem on your hands. As nice as they are, neither combined NBC's & Rogers, TVA etc deals yet come close to providing the kind of actual dollars required to spread the wealth evenly enough to entirely eradicate the bleading of red ink. Not even halfway close to it. Franchises already with difficulties would be left absolutely gasping for breath. Just couldnt compete. Basement flooded, no scuba gear, and there simply isnt a big enough lifebuoy to save them short of absolutely humongous public subsidies, and were already seeing that movie play out in several markets, totally untenable.

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04-18-2014, 12:38 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
MGM announced breaking ground on their arena May 1.

This, of course, creates the new standard by which other public monies for arenas shall be extracted... unless the bluff is called and nobody has an answer, anyway.
I'm not sure what you mean, can you explain please?

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04-18-2014, 12:47 PM
  #198
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Las Vegas shouldn't even be in any discussion - that idea is ridiculous.

There's a reason the NBA, NFL and MLB avoided that market - and those sports are more popular in Las Vegas than hockey is.
Sweet souvenirs of the CFL's Vegas venture: Custom Oh Canada!



Last edited by QcBlizzard: 04-18-2014 at 01:04 PM. Reason: typo
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04-18-2014, 12:55 PM
  #199
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I believe within the next 15 years we are going to see a 34 team NHL. that will include both relocation & expansion . This is how I think its going to happen we will see the Coyotes & Panthers relocate along with 4 expansion teams .

Hamilton
Seattle
Portland
Quebec City
Houston
Kansas City

You probably notice I left Las Vegas off the list for good reason because believe an NHL. team in Las Vegas won't work & is disaster waiting to happen & lets not forget Las Vegas is a Basketball town & if they are building an arena its to get an NBA. team not an NHL. team .

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04-18-2014, 01:18 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by QcBlizzard View Post
Sweet souvenirs of the CFL's Vegas venture: Custom Oh Canada!

Oh my!

If you're tapped to sing a country's national anthem which you're unfamiliar with, you figure it'd be wise to do a smidge of research on that anthem.

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