HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Why I think the Habs should try to play an offensive Vs. defensive system

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-04-2007, 03:55 PM
  #26
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
What i can't understand is why Hamilton has been succesful playing the same system, they score quite a bit as well. basically the entire team is in the plus column of the plus minus category. so how can it be the system?

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:02 PM
  #27
Ross MacLochness
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
What i can't understand is why Hamilton has been succesful playing the same system, they score quite a bit as well. basically the entire team is in the plus column of the plus minus category. so how can it be the system?
I don't know, maybe it's not the same identical system, maybe its the playing style of the players within the system, maybe they are a very talented AHL team.

I can't help but laugh when I picture Samsonov, Kovalev, Koivu, Ryder, Kostitsyn, Plekanec, and Perezhogin playing a "Physical defensive system". Hell, even our most responsible defensive players are as soft as butter (Bonk, Johnson)

Ross MacLochness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:03 PM
  #28
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
What i can't understand is why Hamilton has been succesful playing the same system, they score quite a bit as well. basically the entire team is in the plus column of the plus minus category. so how can it be the system?
Hamilton doesn't roll four-lines evenly. You can be assured the top two lines are being played when they want or need a goal. Add in the fact that they get timely goals from their defence plus third and fourth lines, and you are golden. Basically, Hamilton can score in any situation.. Chips and D'Ago shorthanded.. Powerplay.. 5 on 5 and Don Lever has more experience as a coach than Carbonneau, I believe. Lever knows his stuff.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:07 PM
  #29
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Hamilton doesn't roll four-lines evenly. You can be assured the top two lines are being played when they want or need a goal. Add in the fact that they get timely goals from their defence plus third and fourth lines, and you are golden. Basically, Hamilton can score in any situation.. Chips and D'Ago shorthanded.. Powerplay.. 5 on 5 and Don Lever has more experience as a coach than Carbonneau, I believe. Lever knows his stuff.
we don't roll 4 lines evenly either, look at the icetime numbers. i guess your suggesting don Lever is a better coach than Carbo or are you suggesting the players down there execute the system better? maybe both?

Carbo has some experience in coaching, he also has Jarvis and Gainey to confer with, both of whom have a wealth of coaching experience.

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:09 PM
  #30
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
we don't roll 4 lines evenly either, look at the icetime numbers. i guess your suggesting don Lever is a better coach than Carbo or are you suggesting the players down there execute the system better? maybe both?

Carbo has some experience in coaching, he also has Jarvis and Gainey to confer with, both of whom have a wealth of coaching experience.
Dude, we seriously roll four lines evenly..
The game starts, we have our third line out there.
First line will come out.
Second line will come out.
Fourth line will come out.
Back to the third line.

Then you can take account this..
Face-off in our own end 2nd line taking face-off with Dandy and Bouillon on defence
Offensive zone face off.. 3rd line.
Line after the goal.. 4th line.
Line after being scored on.. 4th line.

The 1st line is barely ever put out on a face-off situation.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:17 PM
  #31
Bronn
Registered Sellsword
 
Bronn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Highest Bidder
Posts: 11,123
vCash: 500
Carbo + Jarvis + Muller + Gainey = No offensive system

/Thread

Bronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:37 PM
  #32
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Dude, we seriously roll four lines evenly..
The game starts, we have our third line out there.
First line will come out.
Second line will come out.
Fourth line will come out.
Back to the third line.

Then you can take account this..
Face-off in our own end 2nd line taking face-off with Dandy and Bouillon on defence
Offensive zone face off.. 3rd line.
Line after the goal.. 4th line.
Line after being scored on.. 4th line.

The 1st line is barely ever put out on a face-off situation.

Dude your wrong the numbers don't lie. we don't roll 4 lines constantly. Lats played less than 10 minutes last night. Go look at ice time numbers.

or here


here's our 5 on 5 goal scoring for forwards, icetime and games played

Koivu 8 18:10 67
Ryder 8 16:08 68
Higgins 11 17:33 47
Pleks 11 15:52 67
Kovalev 8 18:48 61
Sammy 9 14:25 62
Bonk 10 16:27 63
Johnson 10 16:35 66
Perez 5 12:15 60
Lapierre 3 11:17 32
Lats 6 12:10 67
Begin 3 11:10 38

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:39 PM
  #33
LeMAD
Registered User
 
LeMAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,448
vCash: 500
Our offense is really bad, not sure playing a offensive system is a good idea with the level of talent of our players...

LeMAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 04:46 PM
  #34
Belso
Registered User
 
Belso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
You are on to something here.

As you said, most teams have defense-first systems. The issue is HOW they are executed.

We have seen many cases of two-man-in forecheck. But they come off plays where the forwards dump it in from just outside the blueline. Actually the fourth line is VERY good at this.

The Habs typically play 1-2-2 when they shoot the puck in off a guy barely reaching the red line while an opponent is in hot pursuit. We have no chance to recover the puck, so we set up in 1-2-2. What happens next is that, too often, when the opponents hit their own blue line, the Habs do NOT do what the system is meant to do, which is swarm the puck carrier, trapping him and forcing one of two things:
a) turnover; or
b) long shoot-in with no chance of recovery

In order to accomplish the swarm, the forwards have to be alert and moving their feet, and the defence cannot back up too fast. Unfortunately, when the confidence level is down, the D are collapsing quickly and the forwards don't see the opportunity to trap. The result is that the opponents hit our blueline with the puck and with speed and either carry it in, or shoot it in and recover a high percentage versus some of our vulnerable D-men.

Some possible remedies:

a) Improve the breakout system execution so that we don't so often settle for a desperation shoot-in from a guy barely making the red line. Here the replacement of Rivet and Bouillon/Dandenault with Streit and Gorges will probably be a big help. Passing skills and vision are what is needed.

b) Work with the defencemen to STOP backing up so much in the neutral zone. This tactic may be necessary when faced with a 3-on-2, but if we are in 1-2-2 trap, the 5-man unit has to minimize the gaps big time.

c) With the D standing up more, get the forwards to attack the puck more, and finish their checks more often. Make it harder for teams to play against us.

d) If Doug Jarvis can't do a stellar job of defence coach, don't be shy to hire one like we used to have in Jacques Laperriere. There is only so much the GM can do in a cap world to stockpile talent. The coaching staff then has the very important job of MOULDING this talent, and resources should be put into the staff.

In the NHL, a good defensive system can be one of the best offensive weapons in a team's arsenal. Neutral zone turnovers create the odd-man rushes that yield high-percentage scoring chances. Turnovers in the opponents' zone also create good scoring chances.

Let's hope the Habs will move to a more aggressive defensive pattern SOON.
You make a good point about the Habs not playing their Defensive game properly. And I do agree they could be faster. Kovalev nor Koivu have the best knees in the leauge. Koivu is not slow though. Ryder isn't the fastest but he's not considered slow. Latendress will be faster when he gets older. Kostitsyn will only get faster and Grabovsky might be one of the fastest players on the team next year. But you are right. I do not compare them to the Sabres, Redwings, or Senantors, but they are still a good skating team with above average speed and more offensive upside to a defensive upside. There are so many young players in Montreal that they can afford to push their players and get more energy out of then as opposed to older and slower teams.

Maybe a 2-1-2 system is not recomended yet. But I still think that if there's room for more attack that it should be adjusted into their system.

My main point is that they are a young eager team who want to score goals and they have the potential to do so unlike other less talented and slower teams. The coaching staff is not capable to make enough of their players buy into this system.

Motivation (according to Cabonneau) 3 out of 4 nights is not there. And it's hard to motivate someone who believes he can do better in a more offensive system. You can't buy happiness. I don't care how much these guys make, once you get on the ice, you forget how much you are earning. And even if the players are at fault for that, they will never change. They are human. So if you can adjust the system and make it more exciting for the players, it will make them work harder without even having to blast them after every game.

Have any of you stayed up to watch Carbonneau's after game interviews since Christmas? 3 of 4 games he says that they have to work harder to win games.. sometimes the habs have a bad period, get scored on, find a way to come back, win and Carbonneau still says they have to play a full 60 min game. So if I've heard it almost every game for 2 months, how many times have the players heard it? Before the game, during the game, every other intermission, after the game, etc. If it hasn't changed in 2 months, it's not going to change. You don't have the luxury to change the wole team over night. Sometimes you have to admit that saying it just isn't enough..

So if you can bring out the best in your players, take advantage of the youth (is Kovalev the oldest at 34?), speed and skill just and make them work twice as hard just buy changing their system and giving them more opportunities to score, it could pay off.

But we both agree that a change in the system is not out of the question or an unreasonable solution to an unmotivated and loosing team.

I would have never started this thread before Jan 1...

Belso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 06:41 PM
  #35
x-bob
Registered User
 
x-bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,000
vCash: 500
We should get a coach that wants to paly this style too. Carbonneau (Muller and Jarvis) and Julien are very defensive coachs and they just don't suit our team. We have to start using what we have and stop turning our team into a defensive team because frankly, our D can't cut it.

x-bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:03 PM
  #36
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
Dude your wrong the numbers don't lie. we don't roll 4 lines constantly. Lats played less than 10 minutes last night. Go look at ice time numbers.

or here


here's our 5 on 5 goal scoring for forwards, icetime and games played

Koivu 8 18:10 67
Ryder 8 16:08 68
Higgins 11 17:33 47
Pleks 11 15:52 67
Kovalev 8 18:48 61
Sammy 9 14:25 62
Bonk 10 16:27 63
Johnson 10 16:35 66
Perez 5 12:15 60
Lapierre 3 11:17 32
Lats 6 12:10 67
Begin 3 11:10 38
But, still pay attention next time.
The second line (worst defensively) will be out with Dandenault and Bouillon (worst defensive pairing).
The second or first line will be out in defensive zone face-offs.
Third and Fourth line out to start periods, after goals, after scoring, in the offensive zone.

All very bad ideas, yet, Carbonneau does it fluently. Methodically, every game.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:26 PM
  #37
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
But, still pay attention next time.
The second line (worst defensively) will be out with Dandenault and Bouillon (worst defensive pairing).
The second or first line will be out in defensive zone face-offs.
Third and Fourth line out to start periods, after goals, after scoring, in the offensive zone.

All very bad ideas, yet, Carbonneau does it fluently. Methodically, every game.
I do pay attention thanks. the first line is the worst defensively if stats mean anything. The problem with Dandy/Boullion combo is you can't play them with our so called checking line because they usual play against the other teams top players. I really don't know what to do with those 2 ,breaking them up is a good start though.

The third line is out to start periods, obviously if your line matching you are going to play your checking line against the other teams top line. So that's why they take faceoffs when to start the periods, after goals, after scoring, in the offensive zone.

if you don't factor in line matching some of the things you mentioned look odd.

maybe you need to pay a little more attention next time.

BTW our entire team outside of the Bonk/Johnson and Markov/Komisarek pairings is poor defensively right now.

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:30 PM
  #38
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
I do pay attention thanks. the first line is the worst defensively if stats mean anything. The problem with Dandy/Boullion combo is you can't play them with our so called checking line because they usual play against the other teams top players. I really don't know what to do with those 2 ,breaking them up is a good start though.

The third line is out to start periods, obviously if your line matching you are going to play your checking line against the other teams top line. So that's why they take faceoffs when to start the periods, after goals, after scoring, in the offensive zone.

if you don't factor in line matching some of the things you mentioned look odd.

maybe you need to pay a little more attention next time.

BTW our entire team outside of the Bonk/Johnson and Markov/Komisarek pairings is poor defensively right now.
You got the wrong impression, I was not saying you weren't paying attention. I was more saying, "Hey, look at this!".. Not "Gosh, would you just LOOK in front of your face."

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:36 PM
  #39
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
You got the wrong impression, I was not saying you weren't paying attention. I was more saying, "Hey, look at this!".. Not "Gosh, would you just LOOK in front of your face."
no worries, i think line matching may account for alot of it.

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:38 PM
  #40
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
no worries, i think line matching may account for alot of it.
Yes, and I understand that. However, I hate when say the 2nd line comes out.. 10 seconds into their shift, they score a goal.. then we put out the 4th line. Come right back at them with the 2nd line, reward them for the goal. Put the other team on their heels. Not say, look our here's our defensive line, come back and gain some momentum!

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:44 PM
  #41
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Yes, and I understand that. However, I hate when say the 2nd line comes out.. 10 seconds into their shift, they score a goal.. then we put out the 4th line. Come right back at them with the 2nd line, reward them for the goal. Put the other team on their heels. Not say, look our here's our defensive line, come back and gain some momentum!
Much easier to get the matchups you want at home, alot of people have the philosophy not to keep the same line on the ice after they score. I don't agree with this Philosophy either, but of course it all depends on how long the line has been on the ice.

I also think our shifts are far too long and not nearly hard enough.
is shift length stats available anywhere?

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 07:47 PM
  #42
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,534
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
Much easier to get the matchups you want at home, alot of people have the philosophy not to keep the same line on the ice after they score. I don't agree with this Philosophy either, but of course it all depends on how long the line has been on the ice.

I also think our shifts are far too long and not nearly hard enough.
is shift length stats available anywhere?
I think they may be, but I have no idea where.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 08:14 PM
  #43
Belso
Registered User
 
Belso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
But, still pay attention next time.
The second line (worst defensively) will be out with Dandenault and Bouillon (worst defensive pairing).
The second or first line will be out in defensive zone face-offs.
Third and Fourth line out to start periods, after goals, after scoring, in the offensive zone.

All very bad ideas, yet, Carbonneau does it fluently. Methodically, every game.
Hummm.. Change the mentality of most of the team or change the coaches. Which one is easier? Agian, you can't turn a snake into a lamb.. A snake will always be a snake.

In my eyes, what makes a good coach is one that is able to win using his team efficiently. Trying to turn an offensive team into a two-way team beacause that is what YOU are good at is not the way win..

How do you make your team efficient? You use your players in the most efficient way you can.. This means Carbonneau must learn to play his offensive players offensively..

Ok let me say everyone should understand and know how to play responsibly in their own end. And everyone should be aware of how to play a defensive game. You can't keep your lead if you don't know how it's done.

Kovalev, Ryder, Samsonov, Perezhogin, Grabovski, and Souray should NEVER be asked to play any defensive role. Unless everyone else is dead or injured.

Who has the potential to play good two-way hockey and should be taught "a la Carbonneau"? Higgins, Plekanec and Johnson can. They have displayed that they can do that effiecently. Higgins can win the Frank J. Selke Trophy.

I like Carbonneau. It's normal for him to make mistakes. It's his first year Coaching. You can't expect a player, coach, manager, president, etc to be their best in their first few years. That's just the way it is. If Carbonneau is going to be a good coach he will have to find what he is doing wrong or see what he is not good at and get better.. I say give him two more years and see if he becomes a great coach.. If the habs always get new coaches, they will get this. Tremblay, Vigneault, Therrin, Juilen were all new coaches. They are all doing fine today. I know Treamblay is a assistant, but he says he loves what he does. Gainey was the coach in charge when the Habs forced their way into the playoffs last year.. New coaches always make a sudden impact. The great ones stay great with time...

Hopefully Carbonneau can turn this team around or he and Gainey will get more heat. But I still agree with Gainey not trading the youth just to squeeze into the play-offs.

Belso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 08:26 PM
  #44
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Hummm.. Change the mentality of most of the team or change the coaches. Which one is easier? Agian, you can't turn a snake into a lamb.. A snake will always be a snake.

In my eyes, what makes a good coach is one that is able to win using his team efficiently. Trying to turn an offensive team into a two-way team beacause that is what YOU are good at is not the way win..

How do you make your team efficient? You use your players in the most efficient way you can.. This means Carbonneau must learn to play his offensive players offensively..

Ok let me say everyone should understand and know how to play responsibly in their own end. And everyone should be aware of how to play a defensive game. You can't keep your lead if you don't know how it's done.

Kovalev, Ryder, Samsonov, Perezhogin, Grabovski, and Souray should NEVER be asked to play any defensive role. Unless everyone else is dead or injured.

Who has the potential to play good two-way hockey and should be taught "a la Carbonneau"? Higgins, Plekanec and Johnson can. They have displayed that they can do that effiecently. Higgins can win the Frank J. Selke Trophy.

I like Carbonneau. It's normal for him to make mistakes. It's his first year Coaching. You can't expect a player, coach, manager, president, etc to be their best in their first few years. That's just the way it is. If Carbonneau is going to be a good coach he will have to find what he is doing wrong or see what he is not good at and get better.. I say give him two more years and see if he becomes a great coach.. If the habs always get new coaches, they will get this. Tremblay, Vigneault, Therrin, Juilen were all new coaches. They are all doing fine today. I know Treamblay is a assistant, but he says he loves what he does. Gainey was the coach in charge when the Habs forced their way into the playoffs last year.. New coaches always make a sudden impact. The great ones stay great with time...

Hopefully Carbonneau can turn this team around or he and Gainey will get more heat. But I still agree with Gainey not trading the youth just to squeeze into the play-offs.
Unfortunatley we are not an offensive team no matter what anyone suggests. so what do you suggest Carbo do? with our so called offensive players? they Play on the PP, the play more minutes than any other forwards, they just aren't scoring or shooting enough for whatever reason. the only players who are asked to play a defensive role are Bonk and Johnson. you are advacating responsible being responsible defensively, so what do you suggest Carbo should do?
a harder forecheck? our so called offensive players aren't built for a good forecheck at all.

How bout you suggest a solution, saying let them play more offensive is easy to say, how bout you tell us how without compromising "defensive responsibilty". how many more coaches do we need to go through here. Therrien was a more offensive coach he didn't suceed here, but is elsewhere... does this suggest maybe its the players or we just don't have the top end talent yet.

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 09:10 PM
  #45
Belso
Registered User
 
Belso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
Unfortunatley we are not an offensive team no matter what anyone suggests. so what do you suggest Carbo do? with our so called offensive players? they Play on the PP, the play more minutes than any other forwards, they just aren't scoring or shooting enough for whatever reason. the only players who are asked to play a defensive role are Bonk and Johnson. you are advacating responsible being responsible defensively, so what do you suggest Carbo should do?
a harder forecheck? our so called offensive players aren't built for a good forecheck at all.

How bout you suggest a solution, saying let them play more offensive is easy to say, how bout you tell us how without compromising "defensive responsibilty". how many more coaches do we need to go through here. Therrien was a more offensive coach he didn't suceed here, but is elsewhere... does this suggest maybe its the players or we just don't have the top end talent yet.
I guess I wrote a lot to try and back up my opinions.

how many more coaches do we need to go through here? I don't know. And I think (like I wrote above) that we are not giving Montreal's coach a chance to get good. So I said Carbo needs to get better to stay in Montreal. I didn't say to replace Carbonneau.

does this suggest maybe its the players or we just don't have the top end talent yet? Montreal is not the best team. I never said they did either. I said they have an above average speed and skill team with a potentially more offensive upside. I also said they are not playing like a motivated team. If I had to see it as a psychologist, I would say it was normal for a team who want and can play more offensive to be unmotivated to have to play defensive. So this problem can maybe be fixed by adjusting their system to take advantage of their assests and this may bring their motivation up, they might start playing with heart, passion and you'll see more goals go in.

You can't look at the players stats this season and say, "See, they are not offensively good". I say fix the system, maybe not 2-1-2, to make it more offensive and see how they react.

So in essence, my ideaology is show them they can score and get high numbers and they will try and attain those high numbers by working harder. Then those goals will start going in and your team will BECOME an offensive team naturally.

Let me ask you one thing? If your a player and your goal is to win the art ross trophy, or maurice richard trophy, or you simply want to beat your high score, you will NEVER be happy unless you play on a team that will let you do this. You'll do what your coach does and hope to get traded or sign elsewhere when free agency comes up. They will NEVER give their 110%. only 90% or some nights 70% which is what Carbonneau and fans see and why they loose now as opposed to the begining of the season. At the begining everything is possible So they work hard. At the end of the season, you can't win or beat your highest pts total when you are too far away from your goal. So your motivation is gone. Begin get his chance to beat records. In hits maybe but he doesn't think he can get anywhere near the art ross. Perezhogin does. Maybe Kovalev in his little world does too. These guys want to win, but not at the expense of their personal goals. That's normal. A lot of these guys have tons of trophys they've aquired in the minors. They are there because they believe in their abilities. Doesn't it make any sense?

Kovalev is twice the player he is when motivated. If you can motivate him by giving him the chance to beat his highest pts total, you'll get a super Kovalev. When Perezhogin played along side Jagr in the RSL during the lockout, Jagr had 38 pts in 32 games with a +1. Perezhogin had 33 pts in 43 games with +14. The RSL was the strongest league apparently that year and Perez was great! He wasn't as good as Jagr, but who is? Where's that fire power in Monteal? I read an interview where he said that he put pride in his his role in Montreal but said he's not playing anywhere close to his potential yet. I don't think he meant that he's not trying. Just that he can do a lot more if put in a different system. I think it's partly both. Not trying as hard, not in the right system. He even mentioned wishing he could play in a system like Detroit (but I may be wrong on this, don't quote me . Samsonov averages 50 pts a season. I seen his highlight reels. This is not the Samsonov of old. did he just start to suck out of the blue too? He wanted out because of the way he was being used also stating he would produce more if used porperly. Another unhappy camper. Even Carbonneau admited to having done an error on his part.

So that's it. I'll stop here or I'll go on for days...


Last edited by Belso: 03-04-2007 at 10:08 PM.
Belso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2007, 11:33 PM
  #46
biggie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 96
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Ever since I've been watching the Habs play, they have used a defensive system..

The team just can't get motivated. I've been reading in many places how different player at different times have complained or at least mention their dislike to the defensive system.

Now I can understand that IF you are winning and IF your team has no scoring potential that you may as well use a defensive system. But think about who the Habs have drafted and went to get through trades and free agency.

Koivu, Samsonov, Plekanec, are all speedy players who like to play offence even though I agree that even though Pleks is fast he is very good defensively.

Kovalev wants to score goals.. He's hard to motivate.

Perezhogin played with Jagr. He doesn't complain much and says he takes his role seriously playing on the third line against other top lines. But he did say he liked to contribute more having an offensive role. I beleive Markov is one to want to please his coach, but man does he have great hockey sence. I say he'd be even better playing an offensive game.

Bonk has had much success in an offensive system in Ottawa.. 70pts one season, +27 an other. Johnson can score. He can score 20+ goals for sure if he was asked to in an offensive system.

Higgins can play both. Ryder seems more of an offensive player being a sniper. Latendresse is slower but can still drive the net and get rebounds.

Kostitsyn is full of offensive potential.. Why squeeze a defensive game out of him when you can let his offensive game blossom?

Souray has NO defensive game, Streit and Dandenault have both been asked to play as forwards by Carbo and Bouillion in my opinion is better offensively then defensively.

I don't think they have ever had a great defensive game, all the players I named would be more confortable in an offensive system, the team would be much more motivated (which is a problem for at least one period each game in the last 2 years) playing that system and They don't have a real No 1 goalie to depend on to keep the scoring low.

So I say, let them skate, fly, plow their way to the net. Let them score goals. Let them enjoy the game more. If you want a working defensive system, you need to built around a defensive minded team. You can't get offensive minded (who's assests are offense) players and try and squeeze a defensive game out of them.

As a fan, I'd rather them be motivated and win 6-5 or 6-4 as opposed to trying and play defensive and loose 4-1 or 3-2. It might be more exciting for us fans too. Who agrees with me?

The only problem I see now is Carbonneau's not going to want to change his system at this point in the season. It's maybe too late. Too risky. But let's hope they think about next year if they don't change it now. The habs should have realized way before now that they were playing the wrong systems for the players they had...
couldnt said it better myself

biggie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2007, 05:47 AM
  #47
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Montreal is not the best team. I never said they did either. I said they have an above average speed and skill team with a potentially more offensive upside. I also said they are not playing like a motivated team. If I had to see it as a psychologist, I would say it was normal for a team who want and can play more offensive to be unmotivated to have to play defensive. So this problem can maybe be fixed by adjusting their system to take advantage of their assests and this may bring their motivation up, they might start playing with heart, passion and you'll see more goals go in.

You can't look at the players stats this season and say, "See, they are not offensively good". I say fix the system, maybe not 2-1-2, to make it more offensive and see how they react.

So in essence, my ideaology is show them they can score and get high numbers and they will try and attain those high numbers by working harder. Then those goals will start going in and your team will BECOME an offensive team naturally.
I think this is, frankly, ass-backwards. Our "system" is not telling players to stop skating when they have a 2-on-1 or 3-on-2. Our system is not telling players not to cycle down low or compete for the puck in the offensive zone. Our system is not holding up the offense. hat is holding up the offense is that we don't have the puck enough.

Is there a solution? Yes. We have all observed that when the players play the defensive system we currently have with passion and aggression, they generate more turnovers and score more goals.

When they go through the motions and allow the opponents an easy ride into our end of the rink, they get hemmed into our own zone, give up goals, and puck possession time drops to 40% or even less. BUT THIS GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS IS NOT OUR SYSTEM. It is exactly what the coaching staff is complaining about when they say that the effort is not always there for 60 minutes.

When the team is playing confidently and aggressively, they can and DO win most of their games. While at this stage of the five-year plan, they are not yet Stanley Cup favourites due to a lack of puck-moving talent on the blue line, we have already seen that there is enough firepower up front to do the job against most teams.....when the players put their hearts in it.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2007, 08:48 AM
  #48
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,751
vCash: 500
Just by looking at the standings its obvious it doesnt work... is it the players fault ? the coach ?

doesnt matter, but you do expect the coach to change/modify the things that arent working...

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2007, 09:07 AM
  #49
Kostitsyn404*
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
Ever since I've been watching the Habs play, they have used a defensive system..

The team just can't get motivated. I've been reading in many places how different player at different times have complained or at least mention their dislike to the defensive system.

Now I can understand that IF you are winning and IF your team has no scoring potential that you may as well use a defensive system. But think about who the Habs have drafted and went to get through trades and free agency.

Koivu, Samsonov, Plekanec, are all speedy players who like to play offence even though I agree that even though Pleks is fast he is very good defensively.

Kovalev wants to score goals.. He's hard to motivate.

Perezhogin played with Jagr. He doesn't complain much and says he takes his role seriously playing on the third line against other top lines. But he did say he liked to contribute more having an offensive role. I beleive Markov is one to want to please his coach, but man does he have great hockey sence. I say he'd be even better playing an offensive game.

Bonk has had much success in an offensive system in Ottawa.. 70pts one season, +27 an other. Johnson can score. He can score 20+ goals for sure if he was asked to in an offensive system.

Higgins can play both. Ryder seems more of an offensive player being a sniper. Latendresse is slower but can still drive the net and get rebounds.

Kostitsyn is full of offensive potential.. Why squeeze a defensive game out of him when you can let his offensive game blossom?

Souray has NO defensive game, Streit and Dandenault have both been asked to play as forwards by Carbo and Bouillion in my opinion is better offensively then defensively.

I don't think they have ever had a great defensive game, all the players I named would be more confortable in an offensive system, the team would be much more motivated (which is a problem for at least one period each game in the last 2 years) playing that system and They don't have a real No 1 goalie to depend on to keep the scoring low.

So I say, let them skate, fly, plow their way to the net. Let them score goals. Let them enjoy the game more. If you want a working defensive system, you need to built around a defensive minded team. You can't get offensive minded (who's assests are offense) players and try and squeeze a defensive game out of them.

As a fan, I'd rather them be motivated and win 6-5 or 6-4 as opposed to trying and play defensive and loose 4-1 or 3-2. It might be more exciting for us fans too. Who agrees with me?

The only problem I see now is Carbonneau's not going to want to change his system at this point in the season. It's maybe too late. Too risky. But let's hope they think about next year if they don't change it now. The habs should have realized way before now that they were playing the wrong systems for the players they had...
Not reading it all. Just wanted to say though: The habs have horrible defense. Markov/Komisarek are the only good d-men we have (defensively speaking). Streit is pretty much a forward now, Ninimaa is a nobody, Rivet is gone, Gorges is nothing, Bouillon is dece, etc

No kidding we should be playing offensively:

All supposed to be minimum 20+ goal scorers who took WAY longer to reach 20g this season (some of whom haven't even):

Kovalev
Koivu
Ryder
Samsonov
Plekanec (will be a 20+ goal scorer)
Souray (duh)

Others who should score more but don't:

Johnson
Bonk(Has been playing better as of recent)
Perezhogin(*sigh* speed but no skill?)
Kostitsyn(if he's up)
Lapierre(what happened after the first 4 games he played?)
Latendresse(coming from the guy who earlier this season was set to have a 20g+ season, he's been playing terrible)
Markov (should at least be setting up more goals)

This is a team that shouldn't have any trouble finishing, yet they do.

This is a team that is supposed to be primarily offensive. Their d men are horrible. Sorry but you have Sheldon Souray and Dandy defending infront of a rookie goalie or abeischer but you expect to win a game against buffalo? I'm sorry but, in the NHL these days where teams play a fast paced high-scoring strategy, there's no room for crappy defense in the new NHL.

Kostitsyn404* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2007, 04:27 PM
  #50
Reuben
Registered User
 
Reuben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Victoria B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,816
vCash: 500
I am still yet to hear any tangible on ice solution, all i hear is the need to play more offensive, well suggest what they can do on the ice to be more "offensive".

1) when you have the puck.("offensive")
2) when you don't have the puck.("defensive")

those are the "basics" for 5 on 5 play.

Reuben is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.