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Old
03-05-2007, 03:15 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim View Post
You can be a great leader and great team guy and never be suited to wearing the C.

You don't even have to like your Captain. He doesn't have to say anything. You just look at him and know he's going to lead you into battle and you have to play your part.

(very simplified explanation.)
I agree...however, teams have different types of makeups that are suitable for different types of captains.

For example.

In Detroit while Yzerman was captain for all those years, they had a veteran team with guys like Larionov, Murphy, etc, so they didn't need Yzerman to be a rah'rah type of captain.

In New York, while Messier was captain, they had alot of different personalities including our very own Kovalev, so they probably needed a guy with clout, who could be an extension of the coach on and off the ice by being vocal. Which is exactly what Messier did.

Koivu has neither clout nor is he the vocal type (by all accounts) so his leadership comes from giving the example, and when the team is struggling with effort, motivation and discipline...Koivu going out and getting lazy penalties and putting his head down or yelling at the ref gives a bad example to the rest of his team.

Koivu is great at leading by example, but he hasn't been doing that this second half.

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03-05-2007, 03:37 PM
  #27
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anyone else think we should remove Koivu and give Slip Slidin' Slim the C? I mean, after all, when people look him in the eye they know he's ready for battle. The players will then know their parts.

Koivu has zero influence anymore on this team. Besides that stretch where his line pulled out some points a few weeks ago he has disappeared since December.
I like Koivu, always have. The reality is that we need to turn the page.

You people and your terrible comparisons to your own time playing ice hockey make me laugh. The season starts and there are 15 new players that a captain has to be chosen form and they usually pick the most polite or most talented. The majority of the time friends are chosen and when they are not chosen they try to pick some guy who looks like he cares a lot.

To start comparing that captaincy to the leader of an NHL team is a joke. It takes a special type of character to properly lead a team. Not everyone has these qualities. Koivu was chosen years ago but at this point he no longer has it. That's if he ever did. Look at Calgary. Iginla fires that team up all the time. I hate the Leafs but Sundin still plays with more fire and passion than Koivu ever has. Pittsburgh has Crosby who is loved and respected on that team. San Jose has Marleau. Sakic. Lecavalier wasn't the captain when they won the cup but he played like one. The guy was fearless out there. He fought, scored and he did it all. When other players see that, they know they have to keep up.

With Koivu you'll see him play 3 games and the he disappears. He has the same, if not a worse work ethic than Kovalev nowadays but you'll never hear anybody say that because of what he's been through.

It's his job to lead and, like mentioned above, anybody can talk to the ref as long as they don't have a short fuse and can speak english.

In any case, the comparisons between a Bantam captain and an NHL captain are ridiculous. Those who actually believe the role is the same have their heads too far up their colon.

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03-05-2007, 03:42 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I read alot of posts here on this site about what people expect from Koivu as the captain of the Canadiens.

After a while, it gets pretty tiresome, especially seeing as the majority of people here are completely misguided in what the captain's role is on the team.

In a strictly rulebook context, the captain is simply there to represent the players to referees. The captain, and the alternate captains, are the only players who are technically allowed to talk to the refs when it comes to penalties and such. In practice this isn't always the case of course, but that's what it says in the rulebook.

From many of the posts here, it seems people expect the captain to be a guy who stands up in the locker room during intermissions and gives a rah-rah speech that is somehow supposed to motivate the team to do better.

Where does this thinking come from?

I have played many team sports in my life. I can tell you that a captain who gets up there every intermission and gives a rah-rah speech all the time is ignored. That kind of stuff doesn't motivate anyone, it just looks stupid. There are key moments where it does help, but for the most part it's rare.

The rah-rah speeches that have actually succeeded in motivating my teams do not come from the captain. They come from the coach. I never played in the NHL, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works there too.

The captain is expected to say a few words before the game. This much I know. But aside from "let's go out there, let's win this game, we can do it," there's not much else the captain can say without sounding corny. The captain is the captain ON the ice. The coach is the captain OFF the ice.

The coach is the guy who makes sure the players are in line and willing to give it their all. The best coaches in hockey are the ones that can do this, the ones that can motivate the unmotivated.

The captain is nothing more than an experienced, respected player. He helps the team in other ways. He helps the rookies feel more comfortable. He helps the younger guys fit into the major leagues. He offers his experience to the young guys and he helps them out on the ice. Players can look up to the captain, and many do.

Being the captain doesn't mean it's your sole responsibility to bring order to the team. If there are problems with the lockerroom, every single player is equally responsible to fix it. Having a C or an A on your sweater doesn't mean you're the only one allowed to talk. If something needs to be said, you don't keep it to yourself because you aren't "the captain."

There are lots of stories out there about captains doing miraculous things. Alot of them are just that: stories. Messier is often thought of as one of the best, but aside from his prediction, was he really that great of a leader? He was disliked by many of his teammates, and I seriously doubt they would go out and play real hard just because he yelled at them before the game.

In the end, I really think that the perception of what a captain should be doing is distorted by stories and myths passed down over the years. It's true that behind every great team, there is a great captain.

What some people forget is that behind every great captain is a great coach, and behind every great coach is a great team, with players that are already motivated with a desire to win.

Hockey is a team sport. It always has been. One great captain isn't going to fix anything if the rest of the team is rotten.
Anything to protect Koivu...

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03-05-2007, 03:49 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marioroberge View Post
anyone else think we should remove Koivu and give Slip Slidin' Slim the C? I mean, after all, when people look him in the eye they know he's ready for battle. The players will then know their parts.

Koivu has zero influence anymore on this team. Besides that stretch where his line pulled out some points a few weeks ago he has disappeared since December.
I like Koivu, always have. The reality is that we need to turn the page.

You people and your terrible comparisons to your own time playing ice hockey make me laugh. The season starts and there are 15 new players that a captain has to be chosen form and they usually pick the most polite or most talented. The majority of the time friends are chosen and when they are not chosen they try to pick some guy who looks like he cares a lot.

To start comparing that captaincy to the leader of an NHL team is a joke. It takes a special type of character to properly lead a team. Not everyone has these qualities. Koivu was chosen years ago but at this point he no longer has it. That's if he ever did. Look at Calgary. Iginla fires that team up all the time. I hate the Leafs but Sundin still plays with more fire and passion than Koivu ever has. Pittsburgh has Crosby who is loved and respected on that team. San Jose has Marleau. Sakic. Lecavalier wasn't the captain when they won the cup but he played like one. The guy was fearless out there. He fought, scored and he did it all. When other players see that, they know they have to keep up.

With Koivu you'll see him play 3 games and the he disappears. He has the same, if not a worse work ethic than Kovalev nowadays but you'll never hear anybody say that because of what he's been through.

It's his job to lead and, like mentioned above, anybody can talk to the ref as long as they don't have a short fuse and can speak english.

In any case, the comparisons between a Bantam captain and an NHL captain are ridiculous. Those who actually believe the role is the same have their heads too far up their colon.
Yeah Iginla is such a great leader that the Flames are udnerachieiving and can barely win on the road. NHL hockey is the best hockey in the world, but it's still hockey. The skillset might different, the mental aspects more complex but the game remains the same.

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03-05-2007, 03:55 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
Yeah Iginla is such a great leader that the Flames are udnerachieiving and can barely win on the road. NHL hockey is the best hockey in the world, but it's still hockey. The skillset might different, the mental aspects more complex but the game remains the same.
nah you're right. I rather have Koivu as captain than Iginla. What was I thinking?

All these arguments supporting Koivu and what he doesn't have to do. Why don't people actually support him with things that he has done? When you get to that let me know.

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03-05-2007, 04:01 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marioroberge View Post
nah you're right. I rather have Koivu as captain than Iginla. What was I thinking?

All these arguments supporting Koivu and what he doesn't have to do. Why don't people actually support him with things that he has done? When you get to that let me know.
Iginla is the superior player, I don't think anyone can deny that. The comparison was illustrate how even a superior player can't do it all by himself.

Hmmm what has Koivu done besides give his heart and soul to the team?

Well I remember him leading this team past the bruins twice, giving us our only playoffs wins this side of the millenium. The second time, he owned Jumbo Joe and led the league in scoring with a punctured lung. Of course you'll blame him for not getting us past the Bolts right?

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03-05-2007, 04:04 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Canindian View Post
Anything to protect Koivu...
Anything to shift the blame onto someone you don't like.

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03-05-2007, 04:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marioroberge View Post

With Koivu you'll see him play 3 games and the he disappears. He has the same, if not a worse work ethic than Kovalev nowadays but you'll never hear anybody say that because of what he's been through.

It's his job to lead and, like mentioned above, anybody can talk to the ref as long as they don't have a short fuse and can speak english.

In any case, the comparisons between a Bantam captain and an NHL captain are ridiculous. Those who actually believe the role is the same have their heads too far up their colon.
You have no idea how far off the mark you are.

And for the record, I'm not defending Koivu. I believe that no person has the right to comment on another person's abilities as captain, unless you are a part of that team. I passed no judgement on Koivu as a captain. I have no idea what he's like, and neither does anyone else in the world except for those who have played for him. But I find it curious that a 23-year old Koivu was named Captain of Finland in 1998, look at some of the names on that team, and a 3rd year kid is named Captain. That team did okay, so did the one in Turino.

Hockey is Hockey. No matter where or when.

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03-05-2007, 04:07 PM
  #34
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Last I remember Theo pretty much stole both Bruins' series.
The second one was turned around by kovalev's brilliant play more than anyone else's.

I cna think of three moments where Koivu led and a hundred where he didn't. I can even list them.

2002 playoffs - We're down by 2 goals in the 3rd. Koivu gets the guys together during a timeout and they go on to win it.

Last year's playoffs - Not so much that he led us, just that we fizzled after he got hurt. We can't automatically assume that his lack of fantastic leadership is what made us lose.

This year against TO when he scored both those goals in the 3rd to tie it.

Everyone bases his whole career on these 3 moments.

Can anyone else add to this?

Do not use his personal battles as an example as they have nothing to do with his leadership in the dressing room.

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03-05-2007, 04:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marioroberge View Post
Last I remember Theo pretty much stole both Bruins' series.
The second one was turned around by kovalev's brilliant play more than anyone else's.

I cna think of three moments where Koivu led and a hundred where he didn't. I can even list them.

2002 playoffs - We're down by 2 goals in the 3rd. Koivu gets the guys together during a timeout and they go on to win it.

Last year's playoffs - Not so much that he led us, just that we fizzled after he got hurt. We can't automatically assume that his lack of fantastic leadership is what made us lose.

This year against TO when he scored both those goals in the 3rd to tie it.

Everyone bases his whole career on these 3 moments.

Can anyone else add to this?

Do not use his personal battles as an example as they have nothing to do with his leadership in the dressing room.
Your memory is pretty defective then. Theodore did steal at least two games in our first meetings with the Bs but Zednik (until the injury) and Koivu picked up the slack
when he was average.

As for the second meeting with the Bruins, it was all Koivu with the help of Kovalev and Zednik. Theodore played like a sieve and was the only reason it even went to 7 games (He was a wall in the 7th game though. We dominated the Bruins that series).

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03-05-2007, 04:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Anything to shift the blame onto someone you don't like.
I don't blame Koivu. I am just saying that some of you think he is the most perfect player/captain in the whole NHL. Take off your rosy glasses.

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03-05-2007, 06:12 PM
  #37
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Notice how the likes of Yzerman and Sakic became great leaders as they finally got a supporting cast. Both were nearly traded out of Detroit and Quebec at one point or another, and had their leadership questioned until they got a supporting cast of stars around them and they started winning.

Also, if anyone knew Mark Messier in Vancouver, he was anything but what you would call a good leader/captain.

Players are good leaders only when their team wins, however to have your team win, you need good players. So what is it, are they great captains, or do they just have better teams.

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03-05-2007, 06:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marioroberge View Post
Last I remember Theo pretty much stole both Bruins' series.
The second one was turned around by kovalev's brilliant play more than anyone else's.

I cna think of three moments where Koivu led and a hundred where he didn't. I can even list them.

2002 playoffs - We're down by 2 goals in the 3rd. Koivu gets the guys together during a timeout and they go on to win it.

Last year's playoffs - Not so much that he led us, just that we fizzled after he got hurt. We can't automatically assume that his lack of fantastic leadership is what made us lose.

This year against TO when he scored both those goals in the 3rd to tie it.

Everyone bases his whole career on these 3 moments.

Can anyone else add to this?

Do not use his personal battles as an example as they have nothing to do with his leadership in the dressing room.
Actually if i remember correctly, especiall in the second series versus the Bruins, the series should never even have went as far as it did. Theodore stunk the first 4 games are so i believe.

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03-05-2007, 06:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I read alot of posts here on this site about what people expect from Koivu as the captain of the Canadiens.

After a while, it gets pretty tiresome, especially seeing as the majority of people here are completely misguided in what the captain's role is on the team.

....

and

....

and finally the last " . "
All that long essay , just to prove that your belove Saku is a good captain . Sadly , you are just wrong about the role of a captain . Captain isn't just there to wear a C on his jersey , because it 's cute . Neither than for just have a talk with Frazer , here and there . He's there to regroup all his people , so that they can go in the same direction .

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03-05-2007, 06:57 PM
  #40
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The Habs have 2 captains behind the bench, and another one at the 7th level. They're probably the best positioned to know if Koivu does the job.

I'll let them judge his work. Nobody here has the knowledge to figure this out.

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03-05-2007, 08:02 PM
  #41
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I'm ready to see the organization pull a curveball and name someone young as captain within the coming years.

I'm not sure if captaincy should be awarded based on skill (kovalev) or leadership (souray), hopefully we'll have someone who is both (koivu?), but either way the captain of the team should embody the image of the team. Fast-tempo team, fast tempo captain. Slow and old, toronto maple leafs.

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03-05-2007, 08:16 PM
  #42
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The problem is, you shouldn't have to rely on your Captain to be the only leader. Everyone on the team has the ability to be the leader, someone on this team needs to be a leader whether or not there's an A or C on the front of their jersey or not. Someone needs to take this team and drag it through the mud and straight back to glory.

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Old
03-05-2007, 08:23 PM
  #43
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Being a Captain is a symbolic and somewhat meaningless tradition. Often it's a popularity contest. It's all pretty arbitrary and silly. Maybe I have a bias since I never really cared who was Captain in any sport I participated in during high school and college. I played some basketball, some hockey, some soccer and did quite well in track [ 100m 200m and 400m]. I found myself internally driven in all my sporting events and the Captain meant pretty much nothing to me. I was actually voted team Captain on a number of occasions and the most inspirational I ever got was to tell people to do their best. I always did, and that was about it.

If a professional athlete can't motivate him/herself that's his or her own problem and in no way related to some other person on the team with a C on his/her jersey. I really do believe the whole Captain thing is overdone. Now, leadership, that's a very different subject and unrelated to the "C".

Just my two cents.

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03-06-2007, 02:30 PM
  #44
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Aside from the capability/qualities that a Hockey Team Captain should have, it is my understanding that for Les Habs, the captain is selected by the current players.

For most NHL teams, I am of the understanding that most team captains are picked by team management [coach & GM], with little or no input from the players unless the coach or GM does a survey?

I would be interested to find out if the Habs team captain is elected every year by the players or once it is initially done; the person remains the captain until he 1) requests to be relieved of his captaincy 2) retires or 3) is traded?

Anyone know?


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03-06-2007, 02:42 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by chitownhabsfan View Post
Aside from the capability/qualities that a Hockey Team Captain should have, it is my understanding that for Les Habs, the captain is selected by the current players.

For most NHL teams, I am of the understanding that most team captains are picked by team management [coach & GM], with little or no input from the players unless the coach or GM does a survey?

I would be interested to find out if the Habs team captain is elected every year by the players or once it is initially done; the person remains the captain until he 1) requests to be relieved of his captaincy 2) retires or 3) is traded?

Anyone know?

He's the captain until he leaves the team, or asks to be relieved of it.

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03-06-2007, 02:44 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
Yeah Iginla is such a great leader that the Flames are udnerachieiving and can barely win on the road. NHL hockey is the best hockey in the world, but it's still hockey. The skillset might different, the mental aspects more complex but the game remains the same.
The flames are in the playoffs and Iginla is a big reason for that.

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