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Old
04-24-2014, 10:23 AM
  #376
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Nice try...

no they shouldn't shoot their load on these types of players anymore especially at a position that is already crowded...

Holmgren wasted part of his get out of jail free card from the Bryz buyout on a washed up one dimensional geezer....
This signing may not have worked out (at least in some people's opinion) but I don't think they should totally abandon trying to sign free agents that are veterans. It's a case by case basis and I don't think it's fair to say they should avoid EVERY veteran.

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04-24-2014, 10:29 AM
  #377
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This signing may not have worked out (at least in some people's opinion) but I don't think they should totally abandon trying to sign free agents that are veterans. It's a case by case basis and I don't think it's fair to say they should avoid EVERY veteran.
That is not necessarily what I'm saying. What I'm saying is don't make long term commitments to these types. If you are going to get them then do so maybe around the trade deadline as a lower cost rental if possible. Locking up a dude like Vinny who was bought out for a reason (not wanting to commit long term) was just plain shortsighted. Another case of not doing their homework. Holmgren got dazzled by the name and the PR ploy after falling on his face the previous season. Streit and to some extent Emery made some sense....Vinny was just another case of Holmgren going overboard and having his token overpayment every season...

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04-24-2014, 10:36 AM
  #378
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Vinny was bought out because he was due to count $7.7m against the cap for seven more seasons with recapture penalties if he retired early.

I didn't mind the signing at the time because I thought they were committed to moving BSchenn to the wing and leaving him there. Vinny really hasn't been the same since the back injury.

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04-24-2014, 10:50 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Per Bill...

Good job Holmgren....

I hope this is the last expired aged superstar the Flyers sign. It has to stop...wasted cap space.
Ehh, Bill's article just makes me think he needs a possession/set-up kind of guy on his line. Either he should be on G's RW so he can be setup for those one-timers or Voracek should be on his wing so he can draw defenders with his speed. He's not going to succeed with Schenn and Simmonds because neither are good possession players. Rinaldo and Hall as linemates speaks for itself.

Either way, G and Voracek should be split up so we can spread their similar play style throughout the lineup and they can setup our shooters. Also get our two best players split up so they aren't both up against McD and Girardi.

Dude still paced to be a ~25 goal scorer when he was playing with a back injury for part of the season, out of his natural position and with two linemates who don't suit his style of play. He's been misused the entire season.

He needs linemates who can set him up and cover him for him defensively. That doesn't mean he's useless though, we just need to play to his strengths. He has the best shot on our team and needs to be put in a position where he can use it, instead of getting weak minutes at ES and PP with misfit linemates. He either needs to play with G or Jake at ES or on the first PP unit. He'd be good in Jake's spot on the PP for that one timer since G and Kimmo are allergic to shooting. Need someone on the umbrella who can shoot, either Vinny or Streit IMO. And putting Voracek on the 2nd unit would at least give it someone who can control and dish the puck well and make it dangerous, instead of him sitting useless on the right side while G and Kimmo play catch.

This is Vincent freaking Lecavalier, he should have a shot somewhere (either PP or ES) with our best setup guys (G/Jake). It's criminal how we've misused him, he can still be useful even though he's not the all-around player he was. Schenn too, these are guys that need a guy like G/Jake to set them up, but instead G and Jake waste their time passing to each other and not shooting while our best shooters have no one to dish them the puck.

Oh, and obligatory Hartnell sucks. That first line and first PP unit needs a shakeup, and Vinny could be a perfect fit for either G or Jake. W need to utilize that shot.

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04-24-2014, 10:56 AM
  #380
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Ehh, Bill's article just makes me think he needs a possession/set-up kind of guy on his line. Either he should be on G's RW so he can be setup for those one-timers or Voracek should be on his wing so he can draw defenders with his speed. He's not going to succeed with Schenn and Simmonds because neither are good possession players. Rinaldo and Hall as linemates speaks for itself.

Either way, G and Voracek should be split up so we can spread their similar play style throughout the lineup and they can setup our shooters. Also get our two best players split up so they aren't both up against McD and Girardi.

Dude still paced to be a ~25 goal scorer when he was playing with a back injury for part of the season, out of his natural position and with two linemates who don't suit his style of play. He's been misused the entire season.

He needs linemates who can set him up and cover him for him defensively. That doesn't mean he's useless though, we just need to play to his strengths. He has the best shot on our team and needs to be put in a position where he can use it, instead of getting weak minutes at ES and PP with misfit linemates. He either needs to play with G or Jake at ES or on the first PP unit. He'd be good in Jake's spot on the PP for that one timer since G and Kimmo are allergic to shooting. Need someone on the umbrella who can shoot, either Vinny or Streit IMO. And putting Voracek on the 2nd unit would at least give it someone who can control and dish the puck well and make it dangerous, instead of him sitting useless on the right side while G and Kimmo play catch.

This is Vincent freaking Lecavalier, he should have a shot somewhere (either PP or ES) with our best setup guys (G/Jake). It's criminal how we've misused him, he can still be useful even though he's not the all-around player he was. Schenn too, these are guys that need a guy like G/Jake to set them up, but instead G and Jake waste their time passing to each other and not shooting while our best shooters have no one to dish them the puck.
So what you are saying is that the Flyers need to find a way to accomodate a one dimensional player who only has a shot from a stationary position? And how much are we paying this dude and for how many years? Nah....the guy's best days are behind him similar to him being behind opposing team's players....

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04-24-2014, 11:02 AM
  #381
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So what you are saying is that the Flyers need to find a way to accomodate a one dimensional player who only has a shot from a stationary position? And how much are we paying this dude and for how many years? Nah....the guy's best days are behind him similar to him being behind opposing team's players....
So what? You could say the same about ovi and he's obviously not useless. He may be one dimensional but he brings what this team is lacking desperately in a goal scorer. We have a lot of guys that can grind out goals or make some nice passes/dekes, but none with a shot like vinny. One dimensional doesn't mean bad, he just needs to be a complimentary player and he'd fit perfectly with g or Jake, the only guys he hasn't had a shot with.

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04-24-2014, 11:07 AM
  #382
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So what? You could say the same about ovi and he's obviously not useless. He may be one dimensional but he brings what this team is lacking desperately in a goal scorer. We have a lot of guys that can grind out goals or make some nice passes/dekes, but none with a shot like vinny. One dimensional doesn't mean bad, he just needs to be a complimentary player and he'd fit perfectly with g or Jake, the only guys he hasn't had a shot with.
Yeah I agree.

4.5M isn't a HUGE salary, it's somewhat high but I think the way FP is making it sound is that he's paid like Crosby, where he should be able to create offense on his own.

I don't think Vinny can do that anymore and that's ok, the majority of players in the NHL can't do that.

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04-24-2014, 11:23 AM
  #383
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I dunno, I thought Vinny looked pretty good until he hurt his back and, as it seems, was rushed back.

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04-24-2014, 11:29 AM
  #384
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So what? You could say the same about ovi and he's obviously not useless. He may be one dimensional but he brings what this team is lacking desperately in a goal scorer. We have a lot of guys that can grind out goals or make some nice passes/dekes, but none with a shot like vinny. One dimensional doesn't mean bad, he just needs to be a complimentary player and he'd fit perfectly with g or Jake, the only guys he hasn't had a shot with.
Que?

Comparing Vinny to Ovie and Crosby is a ridiculous false equivalency. What part about him being a slow zeppelin and a defensive liability don't people get? It is similar to the Briere argument about giving up more than he scored (hence his buyout). Actually, Briere at least was more of a catalyst in the playoffs (including now with the Habs) than what Vinny has shown thus far.

With the money he's getting and term we could have gotten way better value than what Vinny is going to provide the Flyers. I hope I'm wrong but I mean the dude can barely keep up with the play anymore. Nobody should be complImenting or trying to complEment him ..it's futile

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04-24-2014, 12:02 PM
  #385
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Que?

Comparing Vinny to Ovie and Crosby is a ridiculous false equivalency. What part about him being a slow zeppelin and a defensive liability don't people get? It is similar to the Briere argument about giving up more than he scored (hence his buyout). Actually, Briere at least was more of a catalyst in the playoffs (including now with the Habs) than what Vinny has shown thus far.

With the money he's getting and term we could have gotten way better value than what Vinny is going to provide the Flyers. I hope I'm wrong but I mean the dude can barely keep up with the play anymore. Nobody should be complImenting or trying to complEment him ..it's futile
What part about him having our best shot don't you get? It's a waste not to use it. Not every player in the league is an all-around player, there's a ton of one-dimensional players that are used right and benefit their teams greatly. That's why Ovechkin is relevant, he's one-dimensional, but when used correctly can be a game-changing offensive spark.

Yes, Vinny is slow and a defensive liability. That doesn't make him useless. Jagr is slow and not exactly a defensive savant. You're acting like he's getting $7.7mil a year still and should be playing like a 1C. He's making $4.5mil a year, that's certainly not very much for a 25-goal scorer with the experience, leadership and skill that he brings. That's also $2mil less than Briere was while the cap is expected to rise a lot over the next few years. Temper your expectations a little.

Guy was lured to our organization with the idea of playing with Giroux and hasn't even gotten a chance at it. For someone who went through a rough back injury that he was rushed back from, who plays on our worst line (not including the 4th, although he played there) with young players that are poor complements while playing a position he's never played in his 14 year career, I'd say a 20-goal-in-69-GP campaign was pretty good. This guy has been horribly mismanaged.

He needs to be put with either G or Jake at RW or C respectively, it's that simple. That's how you maximize his skill set, get someone who can control the puck and find him with an open shooting lane. Schenn and Simmonds are the two worst of our top 9 forwards at this role (other than Hartnell) because they need someone to do the same thing for them to be successful.

With the right linemates or 1st unit PP time, this guy could be our only 30-goal scorer. Instead we just get a 2nd line thrown together of all the pieces that don't fit elsewhere and we're surprised when he can't produce. He's not a guy that will produce on his own anymore, he needs the right situation and we certainly aren't making it easy for him.

People had way too high of expectations for Vinny but he can still be very useful if we just use him right. Doubt we will though.

Edit: Oh and congrats on being a grammar ******, sorry I used the wrong homophone once, I was posting from my phone.


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04-24-2014, 12:35 PM
  #386
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Vinny is playing with a broken back. hopefully he can get healthy again.

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04-24-2014, 01:13 PM
  #387
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Blinds, you are making it sound like he never played on the top pp or top line. I like the guy but thats flat out wrong. He got moved off the line with Giroux because he was too slow. Vinny has struggled all season long playing wing whether it was Giroux, or Schenn.

The most ideal situation is playing him at center with Voracek on the wing. That will not happen though since the Flyers are in love with Giroux and Voracek being on the same line.

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04-24-2014, 01:18 PM
  #388
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Vinny is playing with a broken back. hopefully he can get healthy again.
Looks more like he's playing with "two broken feet."

Anyway, he may be still playing injured and has been "misused" to some extent but I really don't see much that is redeeming. These excuses are overstated. As more time passes it will become self-evident that his "Best by" date has been exceeded already..similar to Lavi whose shelf life was completely expired. I think we'll see what we are seeing with Vinny if he sticks around. Berube should actually have him on an even shorter leash ...he should be sitting outright not just having his minutes cut or getting line demotions. 4.5M is still way too much money for a "shooting specialist" who simply can't keep up with the game

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04-24-2014, 01:20 PM
  #389
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Blinds, you are making it sound like he never played on the top pp or top line. I like the guy but thats flat out wrong. He got moved off the line with Giroux because he was too slow. Vinny has struggled all season long playing wing whether it was Giroux, or Schenn.

The most ideal situation is playing him at center with Voracek on the wing. That will not happen though since the Flyers are in love with Giroux and Voracek being on the same line.
What? He got a couple shifts with Giroux in one game IIRC, he never had a legitimate shot there. Wasn't it right after he returned from injury as well?

I remember it because they had some good chemistry on one particular play, rapidly moving the puck back and forth and setting up a scoring chance. He was never on the top PP though except for 5-on-3's.

I agree that he and Voracek would be a good match though.


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04-24-2014, 02:12 PM
  #390
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LTIR him and be done with it

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04-24-2014, 02:15 PM
  #391
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What? He got a couple shifts with Giroux in one game IIRC, he never had a legitimate shot there. Wasn't it right after he returned from injury as well?

I remember it because they had some good chemistry on one particular play, rapidly moving the puck back and forth and setting up a scoring chance. He was never on the top PP though except for 5-on-3's.

I agree that he and Voracek would be a good match though.
According to dobberhockey he played with giroux around 8-10% of the time. He played with Couturier around 12% of the time. He actually has played more with Giroux than with Hall/Rinaldo/other 4th line plug.

Also he played around 27% of his PP time with Giroux. On the top pp with Giroux, Simmonds, etc he played around 10% of his pp time

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04-24-2014, 02:55 PM
  #392
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Looks more like he's playing with "two broken feet."

Anyway, he may be still playing injured and has been "misused" to some extent but I really don't see much that is redeeming. These excuses are overstated. As more time passes it will become self-evident that his "Best by" date has been exceeded already..similar to Lavi whose shelf life was completely expired. I think we'll see what we are seeing with Vinny if he sticks around. Berube should actually have him on an even shorter leash ...he should be sitting outright not just having his minutes cut or getting line demotions. 4.5M is still way too much money for a "shooting specialist" who simply can't keep up with the game
Yeah let's just buy out every player that's 30, because, you know, hockey's FUTURE not hockey's PAST!
Hartnell
Kimmo
Lecavalier
Streit

All we need is the core of the team, let's not support them in any way. Minutes are so critical to young players development, but not practicing with future hall of famers.

We can use all that cap space to buy millions of animal costumes, like penguin bow ties. Because that's what cap management means, saving with no option.

And when we do spend for a UFA, it should be per diem. The UFAs will play for one day contracts so we can cut them when they slump. They don't care about other teams' offers, because I am teh uber smartz GM who's never managed anything but a bag of Doritos.

Yeah..HFB

I bet you wanted Jagr gone too...Because he's slow and old and injury prone.

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04-24-2014, 03:05 PM
  #393
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Vinnie should go because he's a center, and you're not trading a center who's ten years younger with a similar skill set (Schenn) to accommodate him. Trade him for a winger, I'm sure he'd be happy to go to a team where he can play center with some speedy wingers who can set him up, and the Flyers could use a true winger with some speed.

He's just a bad fit with Laughton coming up next year.

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04-24-2014, 03:27 PM
  #394
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Yeah let's just buy out every player that's 30, because, you know, hockey's FUTURE not hockey's PAST!
Hartnell
Kimmo
Lecavalier
Streit

All we need is the core of the team, let's not support them in any way. Minutes are so critical to young players development, but not practicing with future hall of famers.

We can use all that cap space to buy millions of animal costumes, like penguin bow ties. Because that's what cap management means, saving with no option.

And when we do spend for a UFA, it should be per diem. The UFAs will play for one day contracts so we can cut them when they slump. They don't care about other teams' offers, because I am teh uber smartz GM who's never managed anything but a bag of Doritos.

Yeah..HFB

I bet you wanted Jagr gone too...Because he's slow and old and injury prone.
Do you think Vinny has been worthwhile?


And how exactly did you springboard from his post, to "you want all 30+ players bought ought?"

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04-24-2014, 03:40 PM
  #395
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Yeah let's just buy out every player that's 30, because, you know, hockey's FUTURE not hockey's PAST!
Hartnell
Kimmo
Lecavalier
Streit

All we need is the core of the team, let's not support them in any way. Minutes are so critical to young players development, but not practicing with future hall of famers.

We can use all that cap space to buy millions of animal costumes, like penguin bow ties. Because that's what cap management means, saving with no option.

And when we do spend for a UFA, it should be per diem. The UFAs will play for one day contracts so we can cut them when they slump. They don't care about other teams' offers, because I am teh uber smartz GM who's never managed anything but a bag of Doritos.

Yeah..HFB

I bet you wanted Jagr gone too...Because he's slow and old and injury prone.
You write good fiction...

As far as Jagr.....nope I have been arguing since day 1 that letting Jagr go was a bad idea. I have coupled it with the argument against Holmgren for chasing the "pipe dream" of Parise and Suter and letting both Jagr and Carle stew and eventually walk away...

PS: Let's not talk about the merits of Carle leaving..this thread will explode

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04-24-2014, 07:25 PM
  #396
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Do you think Vinny has been worthwhile?


And how exactly did you springboard from his post, to "you want all 30+ players bought ought?"
Because this website, actually by its very existence, discredits veterans vs youth.

My bigger point is that every time the off-season rolls around, this board lights up with contract "suggestions". These are usually completely unrealistic terms and hits -- believing that having cap space wins you cups.

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04-24-2014, 07:49 PM
  #397
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Because this website, actually by its very existence, discredits veterans vs youth.

My bigger point is that every time the off-season rolls around, this board lights up with contract "suggestions". These are usually completely unrealistic terms and hits -- believing that having cap space wins you cups.
Those are blanket generalizations that don't apply to many individuals, especially the people you're currently talking to.

Please find me one post on this board that says "saved cap space wins cups." Every roster put together here has the Flyers as close to the cap as possible, not hoarding space.

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04-30-2014, 04:49 AM
  #398
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Vinny "the line killer" played only 9:28 and that still was probably too much. I supported the signing, but after painfully watching this year he has to go this offseason before anyone else, including Grossmann.

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04-30-2014, 05:03 AM
  #399
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Wouldn't be surprised if he has surgery on the back once the season is done.

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04-30-2014, 08:06 AM
  #400
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Ehh I'd like to see him get another season, this one's been fluky since his back injury. Also I'd like to see Schenn get a full season at wing (hopefully Giroux's), let Vinny have the 2C with some real linemates. As Couts progresses and Vinny declines, they can switch spots.

I'd at least like to give him that opportunity to start (maybe ~20 game trial) to see if he's capable of holding down the 2C spot. If not, try him at a top 6 RW so he doesn't have the defensive responsibilities (we know LW was a fail, but he's said himself he's more comfortable at RW). If that doesn't work, move him down to the 4th and try to ship him somewhere that needs a center, maybe Toronto or Montreal would be interested.

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