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Erik Gustafsson (2012-13 season and beyond)

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04-28-2014, 04:35 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Of COURSE you think he's overrated. You think the fanbase here adores him as much as they do Giroux. You're incredibly wrong on both counts.
Lol. Come on, I've clearly said repeatedly that I am using the term "love" in reference to the amount of people. For ease of reference, here is me repeatedly explaining it and you ignoring it:

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I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by love. I do not mean people actually "love" him like they want to marry him. I also don't mean that they think he is better than Giroux or Timonen. But the amount the guy is promoted, defended, generally talked about positively, is more than pretty much any other player. People love Giroux, but when something goes wrong, a lot of people point to him and criticize, sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. Same with Timonen. But that's about it. Gus seems to be the topic of conversation on everyone's mind throughout the season. Some brought up on its own, some brought up in defense of someone else (possible me), some warranted, some unwarranted. But the folks who love Gus are in greater number and in greater force than with a Giroux or a Timonen. I mean, can you really not see that?
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I'm not talking about who has the best jersey sales my posts have all very clearly stated that he gets a lot of love on these boards.
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Yes, and I explained that I didn't mean that he was literally loved in the sense that people want to marry him, or that people think Gus is as good as Giroux, or that people wear his jersey as much. Only that he is loved on HFBoards in the sense that he constantly talked about as either (a) a promising young defenseman; (b) part of, if not the solution to the team's defense; and (c) deserving of more starts, ice time, whatever; and anyone that disagrees is met with vehement opposition. Without touching on whether or not the purported "lovers" are correct or the detractors are correct, the fact is that the guy is the constant subject of high praise across these boards.
I don't know, maybe I am not being as clear as I could be. Do those above statements not make sense to you? Can you not see that I am saying emphatically that I am using the word in a specific manner, as explained above ad nauseum?

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04-28-2014, 04:38 PM
  #377
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And clearly, you're not understanding how he's viewed here if you think he's overrated.

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04-28-2014, 04:38 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
This one always gets me. If players go on to have success elsewhere, but couldn't do it here, isn't that an indictment on the organization?
It can be, yes. But it can also be an indictment on the player. Sometimes guys need a swift kick in the ass/ wake up call to straighten up and fly right. See Seguin.

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04-28-2014, 04:47 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by MP92 View Post
It can be, yes. But it can also be an indictment on the player. Sometimes guys need a swift kick in the ass/ wake up call to straighten up and fly right. See Seguin.
I'm not sure that was Seguin's doing. The Bruins couldn't decide how to use him. They had Krejci, they had Bergeron, and they wanted him on the ice more than a 3rd line would be, and he couldn't make the switch to the wing. They had a surplus and got value for him.

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04-28-2014, 04:50 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
And clearly, you're not understanding how he's viewed here if you think he's overrated.
I guess so, which again is perhaps the fault of all the "love" the guy gets around here. I know, I know, that is a confusing term and I haven't really explained at all what I meant by that, but what I mean (now pay attention, because I know stuff like this is confusing) is simply that with the amount people talk about the guy and complain about his lack of ice time, lack of starting, lack of whatever, it would seem that we're talking about a guy that is much better than a 5/6 defender. I'm really sorry for feeling that way, but it seems weird that a 5/6 defenseman is talked about so much around here, and then people say he is not overrated or there is no "love" for him or whatever you are saying. I don't know of too many other 5/6 defensemen that are the constant topic of debate (and hell apparently proof of condemnation of an entire organizations failure to develop a defenseman, reason to fire a coach, etc). It just seems like all of that put together might give the impression that a guy is overrated. But hey, you say he isn't, so he isn't.

I mean, he's just a 5/6 defenseman, right?

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04-28-2014, 04:50 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I'm not sure that was Seguin's doing. The Bruins couldn't decide how to use him. They had Krejci, they had Bergeron, and they wanted him on the ice more than a 3rd line would be, and he couldn't make the switch to the wing. They had a surplus and got value for him.
There were reports that Chara had meet with Seguin on numerous occasions to try and change they way he approaches the game. They were not happy with his lifestyle up there and the leadership group of that team couldn't get through to him. He wasn't traded because they couldn't find room for him, they moved him because of his attitude.

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04-28-2014, 04:51 PM
  #382
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There were some really bizarre stories about Seguin.

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04-28-2014, 04:56 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I guess so, which again is perhaps the fault of all the "love" the guy gets around here. I know, I know, that is a confusing term and I haven't really explained at all what I meant by that, but what I mean (now pay attention, because I know stuff like this is confusing) is simply that with the amount people talk about the guy and complain about his lack of ice time, lack of starting, lack of whatever, it would seem that we're talking about a guy that is much better than a 5/6 defender. I'm really sorry for feeling that way, but it seems weird that a 5/6 defenseman is talked about so much around here, and then people say he is not overrated or there is no "love" for him or whatever you are saying. I don't know of too many other 5/6 defensemen that are the constant topic of debate (and hell apparently proof of condemnation of an entire organizations failure to develop a defenseman, reason to fire a coach, etc). It just seems like all of that put together might give the impression that a guy is overrated. But hey, you say he isn't, so he isn't.

I mean, he's just a 5/6 defenseman, right?
You're flat out too stubborn to understand. You aren't willing to understand, going back to the days where you couldn't wrap your head around the fact that MAYBE, just MAYBE, Gus should be playing ahead of Mez back in the mid-season when Gus had been outplaying Mez. Or even the offseason, after Gus had outplayed Mez.

Fact: D group is slow, struggles to move the puck, doesn't provide much offensively.

Fact: Gus can move the puck and provide offense, has great chemistry with Schenn where he played over his head and he and Schenn were the second pairing for a stretch, and generally just fills a need.

Fact: Despite those facts, the organization refuses to play him for the dinosaurs they have an incurable love affair with, willfully making the team worse. Then they trade assets for MacD, who they sign to a largeish contract, despite him not being much of an upgrade over Gus.

Can you maybe understand why there is controversy? And therefore, DISCUSSION?

Somewhere, you get ridiculously confused by these three really simple facts. So you flip out and engage in all sorts of strawman hyperbole to invent a different argument you can actually throw something at, even though it's not anything anybody is actually saying.

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04-28-2014, 05:05 PM
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
There were reports that Chara had meet with Seguin on numerous occasions to try and change they way he approaches the game. They were not happy with his lifestyle up there and the leadership group of that team couldn't get through to him. He wasn't traded because they couldn't find room for him, they moved him because of his attitude.
Yeah, I'm aware of the stories. I question how real some of them are, much like Richards & Co. Bruins won a Cup though, they could last year and could this year. When you have the success the Bruins have, disposing of the bad egg is not nearly as polarizing.

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04-28-2014, 05:10 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're flat out too stubborn to understand. You aren't willing to understand, going back to the days where you couldn't wrap your head around the fact that MAYBE, just MAYBE, Gus should be playing ahead of Mez back in the mid-season when Gus had been outplaying Mez. Or even the offseason, after Gus had outplayed Mez.

Fact: D group is slow, struggles to move the puck, doesn't provide much offensively.

Fact: Gus can move the puck and provide offense, has great chemistry with Schenn where he played over his head and he and Schenn were the second pairing for a stretch, and generally just fills a need.

Fact: Despite those facts, the organization refuses to play him for the dinosaurs they have an incurable love affair with, willfully making the team worse. Then they trade assets for MacD, who they sign to a largeish contract, despite him not being much of an upgrade over Gus.

Can you maybe understand why there is controversy? And therefore, DISCUSSION?

Somewhere, you get ridiculously confused by these three really simple facts. So you flip out and engage in all sorts of strawman hyperbole to invent a different argument you can actually throw something at, even though it's not anything anybody is actually saying.
He also seems to ignore that it seemed many wanted Ghost to start in the playoffs over Grossman, Gus, and Gill if he would have been eligible as well as ignoring that when people are talking about Gus they are simply discussing upgrading the team, just like if Laughton doesn't play in Game 6.

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04-28-2014, 05:11 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by bauerhockey02 View Post
He also seems to ignore that it seemed many wanted Ghost to start in the playoffs over Grossman, Gus, and Gill if he would have been eligible as well as ignoring that when people are talking about Gus they are simply discussing upgrading the team, just like if Laughton doesn't play in Game 6.
Seriously. It's not so much a "Gus" thing, as it is a "What makes the team better?" thing.

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04-28-2014, 05:38 PM
  #387
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Here, let's make this really simple.

Basic scale of 1 to 10

Gus = 5/10

Grossmann = 3/10


So we all know that Gus isn't amazing, but he is better than the other options that have been played more than him. We, being Flyers fans, want the best people possible in every spot, why have a 3 when you can have a 5? It makes no sense. Especially when that 3, if needs of the team are taken into account, looks more like a 1 and the 5 looks more like a 7.

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04-28-2014, 07:49 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
Here, let's make this really simple.

Basic scale of 1 to 10

Gus = 5/10

Grossmann = 3/10


So we all know that Gus isn't amazing, but he is better than the other options that have been played more than him. We, being Flyers fans, want the best people possible in every spot, why have a 3 when you can have a 5? It makes no sense. Especially when that 3, if needs of the team are taken into account, looks more like a 1 and the 5 looks more like a 7.
I would say they are both 5/10 , maybe even a slight nod to,Gross. But when it comes to team needs and where the league is going, Gus 7/10 and Gross 3/10. Gill is. 1/10 in all categories.

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04-28-2014, 07:57 PM
  #389
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I said it before, Grossmann can still be a quality defender on the right team. That team is not the Philadelphia Flyers though and that is painfully clear to most.

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04-28-2014, 08:11 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I said it before, Grossmann can still be a quality defender on the right team. That team is not the Philadelphia Flyers though and that is painfully clear to most.
The fact that he's been walking around in a soft cast for the past 2 moths or so, doesnt help

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04-28-2014, 08:34 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're flat out too stubborn to understand. You aren't willing to understand, going back to the days where you couldn't wrap your head around the fact that MAYBE, just MAYBE, Gus should be playing ahead of Mez back in the mid-season when Gus had been outplaying Mez. Or even the offseason, after Gus had outplayed Mez.
You think anyone offered a 3rd that could become a 2nd for Gus?
In fact, have you heard a rumor that any other team expressed ANY interest in Gus?

So as much as Mez struggled at times, I'd say the league verdict is pretty straightforward, he was a more talented player than Gus.

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04-28-2014, 08:36 PM
  #392
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You think anyone offered a 3rd that could become a 2nd for Gus?
In fact, have you heard a rumor that any other team expressed ANY interest in Gus?

So as much as Mez struggled at times, I'd say the league verdict is pretty straightforward, he was a more talented player than Gus.
Mez earned that based on old reputation and an unsustainable hot offensive streak (That barely saw him breaking even in +/-) alone. He is now a defensive nightmare and a big liability unless he's scoring at very, very high rates. Boston honestly would have been better off trading for Gus, since he is the better overall defenseman at this point.

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04-28-2014, 08:40 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Mez earned that based on old reputation and an unsustainable hot offensive streak (That barely saw him breaking even in +/-) alone. He is now a defensive nightmare and a big liability unless he's scoring at very, very high rates. Boston honestly would have been better off trading for Gus, since he is the better overall defenseman at this point.
So, you're basically saying the Boston GM is dumber than Holmgren?

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04-28-2014, 08:45 PM
  #394
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So, you're basically saying the Boston GM is dumber than Holmgren?
No, I'm saying Chiarelli, not having the advantage of being able to watch and study every player on our team like we do, wasn't aware there was a more useful guy sitting around.

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04-28-2014, 09:09 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're flat out too stubborn to understand. You aren't willing to understand, going back to the days where you couldn't wrap your head around the fact that MAYBE, just MAYBE, Gus should be playing ahead of Mez back in the mid-season when Gus had been outplaying Mez. Or even the offseason, after Gus had outplayed Mez.
I said I was fine with Gus playing over Mez earlier in the season. The only time I said he shouldn't be was going into camp I didn't think the spot was his to lose based on the 60 NHL games he had played vs. Mez's last 11 NHL games and when Mez was in the midst of a hot streak scoring at a very high rate for a defender. I said repeatedly heading into the season that if Gus ouplayed Mez in camp or if Mez faltered out of the gate, go ahead and put him in there. My argument was simply that 60 mediocre games spread out over three seasons does not unseat a 400 or 500+ game veteran coming off an injury. Then when Mez got back in the game and was on an offensive tear, I didn't think he should be benched right in the midst of that tear. These aren't really shocking or off-the-wall ideas. (I know, I know, Mez is 28 and he got injured and no one will ever recover from that. It's weird, Mez is not good enough to play on the Flyers but he is good enough to play on the Bruins (I know, I know, he has a better defensive partner now which is why it is ok), I wonder why the Bruins didn't try to get Gus? They went for the lesser player who makes a lot more money? That is really weird, the Bruins scouts and GM don't really know what they are doing anyway.).

Quote:
Fact: D group is slow, struggles to move the puck, doesn't provide much offensively.

Fact: Gus can move the puck and provide offense, has great chemistry with Schenn where he played over his head and he and Schenn were the second pairing for a stretch, and generally just fills a need.

Fact: Despite those facts, the organization refuses to play him for the dinosaurs they have an incurable love affair with, willfully making the team worse. Then they trade assets for MacD, who they sign to a largeish contract, despite him not being much of an upgrade over Gus.

Can you maybe understand why there is controversy? And therefore, DISCUSSION?
And that is fine. I have no problem with people wanting Gus out there. I don't even have a problem with all the Gus "love." I am in complete shock that you can't even acknowledge it for some reason. This really is the most ridiculous discussion I've ever had on these boards (and there have been some doozies).

Also, much of the discussion of which you speak has been going on for long before these examples that are mentioned.

Quote:
Somewhere, you get ridiculously confused by these three really simple facts. So you flip out and engage in all sorts of strawman hyperbole to invent a different argument you can actually throw something at, even though it's not anything anybody is actually saying.
I'm not confused at all. I'm not even really arguing about Erik Gustafsson. What started out as a joke that I figured would get a laugh or two has turned into something absurd. I was pointing out that there was a lot of love for the kid and you didn't agree for some reason, and have been vehemently defending your position all day (which is really strange when just looking at other threads and seeing how often Gus's name comes up makes it plainly evident that the kid is loved around here...it really makes it seem like you are feeling guilty or something about liking Gus that you have to rationalize it because I dare to say people love him).

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Originally Posted by bauerhockey02 View Post
He also seems to ignore that it seemed many wanted Ghost to start in the playoffs over Grossman, Gus, and Gill if he would have been eligible as well as ignoring that when people are talking about Gus they are simply discussing upgrading the team, just like if Laughton doesn't play in Game 6.
This dates back much further than last week.

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04-28-2014, 09:11 PM
  #396
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Meszaros also wasn't a bad pickup for the Bruins. He was insurance considering they had two D on IR before playoffs even started. He provided depth for them going into the playoffs and had shown earlier in the season that he could turn it on at times. He played in their first two games but didn't dress in the other three. Chiarelli got himself an offensive D who can be paired with Chara in order to minimize defensive mistakes and who had 46 games of playoff experience when traded for. I am sure that all factored into that trade. Boston now has an extra couple D to choose from and unlike a couple of their other D Mesz has the experience. Yes most of the Bruins team has experience but having an extra depth guy with 46 prior games of playoff experience is a nice thing to have.

Gus is kind of an unknown outside of the Flyers with 98 games of pro experience if you combine his regular season and post season games played. Combine that with him being a healthy scratch for more than half the season and you end up with most GMs trading for Mesz over him in that situation.

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04-28-2014, 09:22 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
This dates back much further than last week.
I know that. My point was that people would bring up Gus because it was a way to discuss how to improve the team using what was available on the roster at the time. By bringing up the Ghost and Laughton examples I was providing evidence of how it was not Gus love, rather it was a want to improve the team.

The singular example of Ghost, during the period of time where it was believed that Ghost on the ice was a possibility making Gus truly just a depth option in case of injury, alone shows that it is not a "love" of Gus but rather people just discussing how to improve the team.

Edit: If/When Gus is gone this offseason most people here probably won't care too much. Some will be angry about it however as I remember having a disagreement with someone on here earlier this season who thought Gus was or could be a #3 or 4 D at some point or something like that.

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04-28-2014, 09:30 PM
  #398
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Meszaros also wasn't a bad pickup for the Bruins. He was insurance considering they had two D on IR before playoffs even started. He provided depth for them going into the playoffs and had shown earlier in the season that he could turn it on at times. He played in their first two games but didn't dress in the other three. Chiarelli got himself an offensive D who can be paired with Chara in order to minimize defensive mistakes and who had 46 games of playoff experience when traded for. I am sure that all factored into that trade. Boston now has an extra couple D to choose from and unlike a couple of their other D Mesz has the experience. Yes most of the Bruins team has experience but having an extra depth guy with 46 prior games of playoff experience is a nice thing to have.
Chiarelli was in the Ottawa organization when both Chara & Mez where there & the best defensive pairing they had at that time as well. He had a previous relationship with Mez which was also a factor.

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04-28-2014, 09:30 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by bauerhockey02 View Post
I know that. My point was that people would bring up Gus because it was a way to discuss how to improve the team using what was available on the roster at the time. By bringing up the Ghost and Laughton examples I was providing evidence of how it was not Gus love, rather it was a want to improve the team.

The singular example of Ghost, during the period of time where it was believed that Ghost on the ice was a possibility making Gus truly just a depth option in case of injury, alone shows that it is not a "love" of Gus but rather people just discussing how to improve the team.

Edit: If/When Gus is gone this offseason most people here probably won't care too much. Some will be angry about it however as I remember having a disagreement with someone on here earlier this season who thought Gus was or could be a #3 or 4 D at some point or something like that.
But the difference is that people bring up Ghost, it gets discussed, there is rational discussion on both sides, and it passes without a lot of notice. Gus has been consistently brought up basically since he showed up in Philly, and if someone says something like, oh I don't know, he doesn't deserve to be given the spot after 30 NHL games and that he has not earned a starting job yet, it is met with forceful opposition and ridiculous discussions like the one that is taking place right now. If that happened with Ghost or Laughton or another player, then I would see your point. But it doesn't. Most people are on the same page regarding the likes of Ghost and Laughton and if someone disagrees in some way (either saying one is not ready or needs to gain size or whatever), it is usually a pretty simple discussion that comes and goes. Make a comment about Gus? Watch out. Case and point...this ****ing discussion.

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04-28-2014, 10:38 PM
  #400
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But the difference is that people bring up Ghost, it gets discussed, there is rational discussion on both sides, and it passes without a lot of notice. Gus has been consistently brought up basically since he showed up in Philly, and if someone says something like, oh I don't know, he doesn't deserve to be given the spot after 30 NHL games and that he has not earned a starting job yet, it is met with forceful opposition and ridiculous discussions like the one that is taking place right now. If that happened with Ghost or Laughton or another player, then I would see your point. But it doesn't. Most people are on the same page regarding the likes of Ghost and Laughton and if someone disagrees in some way (either saying one is not ready or needs to gain size or whatever), it is usually a pretty simple discussion that comes and goes. Make a comment about Gus? Watch out. Case and point...this ****ing discussion.
I don't want to get in the middle of this discussion, but I've been a Gus advocate all season so I figure I could chime in.

Personally, I don't know if I'd say he earned a spot or not, it's not really about that. I want him in because he's the player we need right now since he's been better than Grossmann and he is the type of player we need to stop some of the recurring problems we're having defensively (getting stuck in the zone specifically). He adds an element we need, it's that simple. I don't recall ever arguing about Gus with you, but if you did argue against putting him in because he hasn't "earned it" I'd say you're missing the point. First, you don't always have to earn your way into the lineup, you just have to make the team better and he does that. And second, just getting rid of Grossmann or Gill would be an improvement, and this has been 90% of the reason I want Gus in anyway... just to get them out. If there was someone else on the team with even a slight chance of coming in to play right now (Alt, Hagg, Ghost) I'd pick them over Gus for sure.

I'm just saying I think one of the things that you and the people you argue with don't see eye to eye on is the motivation of why people want him in. Basically, it's not Gus vs Grossmann it's the possible replacement vs Grossmann and Gus just happens to be the most likely replacement.

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