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Old
04-30-2014, 09:45 AM
  #401
FourthLineGoon
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Vinny "the line killer" played only 9:28 and that still was probably too much. I supported the signing, but after painfully watching this year he has to go this offseason before anyone else, including Grossmann.
I sincerely doubt that he'll be bought out or traded by the end of this season (even though that would be a pretty logical move), but there's no way that he'll be in Philly for the entirety of his contract.

What i'm most worried about is how Laughton will be treated. The guy's a natural center, right? I'm concerned that they'll try and shoehorn him into a winger spot to cater to Vinny's strengths over Laughton's.

Best case scenario for next year's 4th line:
Hall or Rinaldo - Laughton - Vinny or Rinaldo

What i'm expecting next year's line to look like:
Rinaldo - Vinny - Laughton

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04-30-2014, 10:15 AM
  #402
blinds
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Originally Posted by TRADE EVERYONE PLZ View Post
I sincerely doubt that he'll be bought out or traded by the end of this season (even though that would be a pretty logical move), but there's no way that he'll be in Philly for the entirety of his contract.

What i'm most worried about is how Laughton will be treated. The guy's a natural center, right? I'm concerned that they'll try and shoehorn him into a winger spot to cater to Vinny's strengths over Laughton's.

Best case scenario for next year's 4th line:
Hall or Rinaldo - Laughton - Vinny or Rinaldo

What i'm expecting next year's line to look like:
Rinaldo - Vinny - Laughton
I don't know, people are expecting way too much of Laughton. Do you really expect him to walk onto this team and be better than Vinny off the bat? That seems pretty unlikely, even with how Vinny has played. Laughton's good, but he's a young undersized rookie who hasn't seen all of 10 NHL games yet.

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04-30-2014, 10:59 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by TRADE EVERYONE PLZ View Post
I sincerely doubt that he'll be bought out or traded by the end of this season (even though that would be a pretty logical move), but there's no way that he'll be in Philly for the entirety of his contract.

What i'm most worried about is how Laughton will be treated. The guy's a natural center, right? I'm concerned that they'll try and shoehorn him into a winger spot to cater to Vinny's strengths over Laughton's.

Best case scenario for next year's 4th line:
Hall or Rinaldo - Laughton - Vinny or Rinaldo

What i'm expecting next year's line to look like:
Rinaldo - Vinny - Laughton
Given Schenn is more comfortable at center and vinny has forced him away from that position at times this season, you can say vinny has likely somewhat hurt Schenn's development. Laughton might only be comfortable at center for all we know and the same will occur.

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04-30-2014, 12:06 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Given Schenn is more comfortable at center and vinny has forced him away from that position at times this season, you can say vinny has likely somewhat hurt Schenn's development. Laughton might only be comfortable at center for all we know and the same will occur.
That's a pretty big stretch, it's not like Schenn is losing ice time or opportunities. Maybe it hurt his development as a center, but it's not clear Schenn has a future as a center here anyway. Many people here would tell you they hope Couturier will take over 2C in the future (he essentially is by ice time anyway), and I'm one of them.

I think what's hurt his development more is not having any certainty about his position. Berube should have said from the start of the season, "you're going to be a [LW/C/RW]." And with his faceoff performance, he probably shouldn't be our 2C anyway. I've wanted him on G's wing from the start, Hartnell's done nothing all season to prove he deserves to be there.

And in that vein, I think most people would agree that breaking up G and Voracek would be a good thing to help spread that skill set around the lineup and to make match ups harder (and if Schenn remained at 2C, he and Voracek had chemistry before), but Berube just keeps trucking along with Laviolette's lineup anyway.

If anyone's hurt Schenn's development, it's Berube by asking him to lead an inept line and putting him on an inept powerplay unit. Guy should be eased into it by playing with better players before being thrown into a role where he's asked to lead a line. You know, like Giroux got playing on a line with Carter.


Last edited by blinds: 04-30-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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04-30-2014, 12:53 PM
  #405
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Homer signed Vinny hoping he could play wing. If Vinny fit in on the G line, he would not have had any affect on Schenn's development. Problem is Schenn has played both center and wing with Vinny at times. I agree if they wanted Schenn at wing they should have played him with G all season, just leaving him there. The game of finding where to play Vinny has left uncertainty in the lineup throughout the season. To me that is more on Homer than Berube.

An aside: Vinny was also crap this season at faceoffs:

13/14 44.6%
12/13 54.4%
11/12 47.8%
10/11 50.9%
09/10 53.2%
08/09 50.9%
07/08 48.8%
06/07 46.6%

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04-30-2014, 01:39 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I don't know, people are expecting way too much of Laughton. Do you really expect him to walk onto this team and be better than Vinny off the bat? That seems pretty unlikely, even with how Vinny has played. Laughton's good, but he's a young undersized rookie who hasn't seen all of 10 NHL games yet.
Depends on the role.
As the 4th center, without a doubt, Laughton is faster and a better defensive player (who isn't?).
As the 2nd line center, no. But that isn't going to be Vinnie's role, I think they've realized that Schenn is a center, not a winger.

Sometimes you just have to move on, but I'm all for dumping veterans over 33 unless they're performing at a high level, because they're not going to get any better. At that point, you're better off betting on a kid to improve than a veteran to bounce back.

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04-30-2014, 01:59 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Homer signed Vinny hoping he could play wing.
He was signed to play 2C, and that's where he played till he broke his back.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...Steps/45/52510

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04-30-2014, 02:37 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I don't know, people are expecting way too much of Laughton. Do you really expect him to walk onto this team and be better than Vinny off the bat? That seems pretty unlikely, even with how Vinny has played. Laughton's good, but he's a young undersized rookie who hasn't seen all of 10 NHL games yet.
First off, Laughton isn't undersized. He's built solid. Hell, I'd even use Vandevelde at this point. He'd give you better defense. I laugh at anyone who still even attempts to stick up for Vinny. The guy is nothing but a detriment. He has been given chance after chance and continues to fail horribly.

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04-30-2014, 02:38 PM
  #409
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Okay, this is gonna be a long one.

I've been thinking about Vinny's play lately and while he's been bad, I can't help but think we've treated the guy kind of bad too. Don't forget that he was our best player other than Mason when the team was struggling early on, up until his injury at which point G was heating up.

Before the injury, he bounced between 2C and Giroux's wing and put up a respectable 14 points in 22 games while our team couldn't score if their lives depended on it. This was mostly goals too, a pure scorer being something we lack.

He hasn't done much to help himself since getting injured, but there's been occasional flashes of brilliance. He was signed thinking he'd play big minutes, possibly with Giroux, and since his injury we've given him effectively third line minutes with two inconsistent young guys on his worst forward position.

I mean, it was a complete blunder to play Vinny on left wing. Here's a quote from Meltzer's blog back in October: "Lecavalier said yesterday that while he by no means is a natural winger, especially after spending the vast majority of his NHL career at center, he feels more comfortable on his off-wing than he would if deployed on the left side."

So this guy comes in after being wooed by management thinking he'll either play big minutes on G's wing or center his own line. He's our best forward up until G's first goal and he gets injured shortly after. He comes back early from injury and instead of getting those same minutes he gets put on Schenn and Cout's wings. One is a defensive role that he's not good at, the other is his worst position with 3rd line minutes (since the Couts line gets more minutes).

This is a guy that thrived on being the driving force of a team. I thought we should have kept him with Giroux, give him spotlight minutes and give Giroux a guy with skill and real finish. Vinny is a kind of guy that isn't going to be motivated or play well if he's a secondary act, and that's what happened (in conjunction with injuries + age) in Tampa Bay with Stamkos taking over, and I think that's a huge part of what we've seen since his injury and subsequent disappointing play.

Dont forget Vinny's best game of the season came on one of the few games he got on G's line and he got a hat trick against NYI (also G's first multi point game of the season, back when he had like 1 assist). They had chemistry the few times they played together, Vinny's shot and finesse is perfect for G's set up style of play. Then they had a grinder in Hartnell to forecheck and try to get the puck to one of the other two. Voracek fills the role too, but he doesn't have the same kind of shot as Vinny and he could have thrived being the driving possession player on his own line instead of splitting the role with G.

Then he had his non-displaced back fracture, came back too early and got tossed around the lineup in a secondary role, both on the PP and at ES. This was December, and he played bad until after the Olympic break when he started potting a few goals when they put him back at center on the 4th. I don't think its coincidental that he started playing a little better when he had some attention focused on him for the demotion. He's a guy that thrives on attention.

And that's what I mean when I say we've misused him, we bounce him between roles, linemates and positions, all on secondary lines and the 2nd PP unit. He needs to be a central part of the team. Some people would argue he isn't deserving of the big minutes and it's hard to contest that the way he's played lately. I just don't think we're going to get the best out of Lecavalier unless he is in a central role, preferably on G's RW or at least centering the second line with 1st unit PP minutes.

He's shown a couple times this season that he can still play well but since coming back from injury he's not been playing 100%, he's been bounced around in different roles (Schenn vs Couts line), he's in different positions (mostly LW, his worst position), he's been put on the terrible 2nd PP, and he's really lost all confidence as a result.

We've seen him motivated and confident a few times and he's succeeded, and it's almost always when the attention is on him. When he was new to the team and people wanted to see how he played, when he got minutes with G and the 1st PP, in big games like against his former team, and again when he got attention shifted to him for his demotion to the 4th.

I'm just saying guys, he can still play well and he's shown it in flashes. I won't argue that he's been god awful and the worst forward in the top 9 for long stretches of the season, but this is Vincent Lecavalier. He's been used inconsistently and inappropriately on a team he's just coming on to and this is after more than a decade of having a consistent, central role on a Tampa Bay team that was his.

He's lost confidence, but I think if the team showed some confidence in him and gave him some decent minutes in some kind of central role (either G's wing or 1st PP), he could deliver. He has before. Vinny's a big game player and it's harder to step up for those games when he's an afterthought on the team. He's got a pretty unique skill set that we could still utilize.

I mean, he still got 20 goals with the ridiculous season he had. People are way too harsh on the guy, especially after he came back early from a back fracture. He paced for more points than all of our forwards but Giroux, Voracek, Hartnell and Simmonds. I don't think its a coincidence those are all the guys on the 1st PP.

Just some thoughts for going forward with Vinny, it's obviously too late to make any changes like these now.


Last edited by blinds: 04-30-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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04-30-2014, 02:43 PM
  #410
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Just tell him to waive his NTC and they'll send him somewhere he wants to go - if you have to motivate a "leader" what good is he?

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04-30-2014, 03:01 PM
  #411
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Let him play somewhere else. Let his agent talk to another team, then trade him for a 7th or "future considerations" and be done with it. We aren't going to get much for him and he doesn't have a place here, so lets thank him for his service and find a place he will be happy.

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04-30-2014, 03:07 PM
  #412
blinds
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Originally Posted by deadhead View Post
Just tell him to waive his NTC and they'll send him somewhere he wants to go - if you have to motivate a "leader" what good is he?
It's not about motivating him, it's about giving him the space to succeed. That's like giving Giroux 12 minutes a game with less than ideal circumstances and being angry he doesn't play well. He's not in a position to succeed. He's bad defensively, but that's not the position you want him in in the first place. He's an offensive player.

Alex Ovechkin is bad defensively, but he can still be one of the biggest game breakers in the league. Vinny isn't at his 50-goal scoring peak, but he can still turn a game. You just have to put them in the right situation to succeed.


I really don't understand the rush to get rid of him, he's played ONE SEASON on a new team after being on the same team his whole career.

He's gotten mediocre minutes and played in a new position.

He had a pretty significant injury mid season, when he played great before it. He also came back from said injury early.

He paced for more points than any forward not on the first PP unit.

Guy gets no leeway. I'd at least like to see how he does with another season here. If it's more of the same, I don't have a problem shipping him off. Who do we have to replace him? Raffl? He paced for almost half the points Vinny did, not exactly another 20-goal scorer right there. Raffl has no business in the top 6 (although he's a fantastic bottom 6 guy).


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04-30-2014, 04:31 PM
  #413
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Lets hope he has a monster game tonight, 2 PP goals for Vinsanity !!!

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04-30-2014, 04:48 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
It's not about motivating him, it's about giving him the space to succeed.

I really don't understand the rush to get rid of him, he's played ONE SEASON on a new team after being on the same team his whole career.

He's gotten mediocre minutes and played in a new position.

He had a pretty significant injury mid season, when he played great before it. He also came back from said injury early.

Guy gets no leeway. I'd at least like to see how he does with another season here. If it's more of the same, I don't have a problem shipping him off.
He's aging, he's slow, he can't stay healthy (been a problem for years). If his cap hit was $2M you could keep him around as the 13th forward for big games and the playoffs, but you'll never get 80 games plus another 20 playoff games out of him.

I'd just rather see Laughton get the ice time, he has more ability, just needs experience, and unless you trade Schenn, there ain't room enough for both Laughton and Vinnie (and don't move Laughton to the wing, if you want wingers, trade for, sign or draft wingers).

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05-04-2014, 12:14 PM
  #415
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As much as it hurts to say, because it means chalking this up to ANOTHER free agent bust for the flyers, i think buying Vinny out of his contract would be the best thing to do for the team.

Yes, the guy scored 20 goals. But he's clearly the odd-man out in our center logjam. When it got the point that i felt better with Raffl at center than Vinny, even on the 4th line, i knew there was a serious problem.

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05-04-2014, 01:53 PM
  #416
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They can't afford the cap penalties.

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05-04-2014, 03:04 PM
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinds View Post
It's not about motivating him, it's about giving him the space to succeed. That's like giving Giroux 12 minutes a game with less than ideal circumstances and being angry he doesn't play well. He's not in a position to succeed. He's bad defensively, but that's not the position you want him in in the first place. He's an offensive player.

Alex Ovechkin is bad defensively, but he can still be one of the biggest game breakers in the league. Vinny isn't at his 50-goal scoring peak, but he can still turn a game. You just have to put them in the right situation to succeed.


I really don't understand the rush to get rid of him, he's played ONE SEASON on a new team after being on the same team his whole career.

He's gotten mediocre minutes and played in a new position.

He had a pretty significant injury mid season, when he played great before it. He also came back from said injury early.

He paced for more points than any forward not on the first PP unit.

Guy gets no leeway. I'd at least like to see how he does with another season here. If it's more of the same, I don't have a problem shipping him off. Who do we have to replace him? Raffl? He paced for almost half the points Vinny did, not exactly another 20-goal scorer right there. Raffl has no business in the top 6 (although he's a fantastic bottom 6 guy).
I just think it is knee-jerk to get rid of him after just one season. I don't think Philly knows how to be anything but knee-jerk, so I am not surprised.

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05-04-2014, 03:25 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by TRADE EVERYONE PLZ View Post
As much as it hurts to say, because it means chalking this up to ANOTHER free agent bust for the flyers, i think buying Vinny out of his contract would be the best thing to do for the team.

Yes, the guy scored 20 goals. But he's clearly the odd-man out in our center logjam. When it got the point that i felt better with Raffl at center than Vinny, even on the 4th line, i knew there was a serious problem.
Kinda hard to label it a bust after one yr. He was injured and used incorrectly and still managed to score 20. He was frustrating as all he'll to watch but I think thing turn around next season.

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05-05-2014, 10:08 AM
  #419
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No I'm pretty sure Vinny is a square peg in a round hole. Bill's write up today convinced me even more.

What is curious is that Vinny was recruited by Lavi (per Holmgren) because he would fit his run and gun style yet Bill last year said he thought Vinny wasn't Lavi's type of player but didn't say why. I suspect it is because his skating blows. How do you play run and gun if you are a slow skater? I'm not even sure if getting a player on his line to complement his sucky D and slow @ss will make a difference either. What we have is another Briere situation of sorts even if he is younger and paid less.

I blame Holmgren for this b/c he should have dumped Lavi in the first place in the offseason so somebody like Berbue could get his type of players. This is a prime example of Holmgren not doing his homework and now we have a semi-useless holdover player on our roster.

Maybe they'll package Schenn and help some this logjam but again I don't think Vinny is worth accomodating or keeping. I think they should move him and I don't care how much of a locker room and vet presence he may be....what did that do for us on the ice versus the Rangers? We need horses that can run not stationary lame horses that just take dumps and eat (cap space).

Quote:
Lecavalier was a team-worst minus-16 at even strength during the regular season. This was largely due to his skating issues. Once he got on the wrong side of the puck, he struggled mightily to get back into the play and assist on the backcheck. His defensive zone coverages have never been one of Lecavalier's strengths, anyway.

As the season went along, it became clear that Lecavalier was effective primarily in stationary situations. He still has a fearsome one-timer from the right circle and can finish plays when he uses his anticipation to get open near the right post and the puck comes to him. The more skating he has to do, the less effective he is.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...alier/45/59863

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05-05-2014, 11:25 AM
  #420
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It looks like Homer agrees with my sentiment: He scored 20 goals being horribly situated, but he can't have the same type of year next year.

That being said: They need to figure out what to do with him. If keep him, find a way to make it work. He's a good guy, but his injuries are dogging his career now.

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05-05-2014, 07:08 PM
  #421
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It looks like Homer agrees with my sentiment: He scored 20 goals being horribly situated, but he can't have the same type of year next year.

That being said: They need to figure out what to do with him. If keep him, find a way to make it work. He's a good guy, but his injuries are dogging his career now.
This. If they keep him, he needs to be at C. If that's the case thugh Schenn can't be his LW and Simmonds his RW. It just doesn't work, we've all seen it.

That's actually part of the reason why I would like to see him moved. I can all but guarantee if Schenn and Vinny are here next season we'll see that line combo again.

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05-06-2014, 04:18 AM
  #422
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Move Couturier as the 2C, flanked by Read and Simmonds/Voracek. Read and Couts already see the 2nd most minutes among forward lines just behind Giroux, so why not just treat it how it is? Any line with Vinny is more of a 'secondary scoring line' and perhaps Hartnell, Vinny and an offensively creative RW (Akeson?) could provide that. Brayden Schenn/a new acquisition penciled into the top line LW slot.

xxx (Schenn) - Giroux - Voracek/Simmonds
Read - Couturier - Voracek/Simmonds
Hartnell - Lecavalier - Akeson
Raffl - Laughton/xxx - xxx

Minutes distributed as such:

Giroux - #1 5v5, #1 PP ... 20+mins a game
Couturier - #2 5v5, #1 PK, #2 PP ... 20+mins a game
Voracek - #1 5v5, #1 PP ... 18+mins a game
Read - #2 5v5, #1 PK ... 18+mins a game
Simmonds - #2 5v5, #1 PP ... 17mins a game
Schenn - #1 5v5, #1 PP ... 17mins a game
Hartnell - #3 5v5, #2 PP ... 15mins a game
Lecavalier - #3 5v5, #2 PP ... 15mins a game
Akeson - #3 5v5 ... 13mins a game
Raffl - #4 5v5, #2 PK ... 13mins a game
Laughton - #4 5v5, #2 PK ... 12+mins a game
...

PP #1:
Schenn - Giroux - Simmonds
Streit - Voracek
#2:
Hartnell - Couturier - Lecavalier
MacDonald - Timonen

PK units led by Couturier and Read, with Raffl, Laughton, Giroux and maybe even Schenn and whoever else dresses on the 4th line likely as a defensive specialist.

That's the only way the Vinny situation will be solved, IMO. Schenn moved to LW with G or traded for a solution at LW. Hartnell and Vinny should see similar production and I see that line working similarly to what Montreal does with their vets in Gionta and Bourque and uses their 3rd line as secondary scoring with Plekanec on the 2nd line as their 'shutdown' C. Makes sense.

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05-06-2014, 06:22 AM
  #423
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http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...bers-next-year

Interesting article and quotes from Vinny. Guy deserves another shot.

“I believe in myself,” Lecavalier said. “I believe in what I can do. I’ve gotten kind of a freak injury this year with the cracked vertebrae. I’ve got crosschecked there about 500 times in my career if not more, and for some reason it cracks. It’s not because of old age, you know what I mean?

“I believe in what I can do. I missed 13 games. I believe I can bring [better] numbers for sure.”

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05-06-2014, 07:15 AM
  #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
xxx (Schenn) - Giroux - Voracek/Simmonds
Read - Couturier - Voracek/Simmonds
Hartnell - Lecavalier - Akeson
Raffl - Laughton/xxx - xxx
Vinny and Hartnell on the same line? Akeson would quit the team and kill himself.

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05-06-2014, 07:50 AM
  #425
FLYERSFAN18
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What is he supposed to say? "I'm older now and my body is breaking down. Hopefully these injuries won't continue to pester me throughout my career. I don't skate as fast as I used to which really hurts what were my strengths on the ice when I was young."

Lightning fans came to our board when we first signed him saying we would be disappointed because he was slowing down and was injured frequently throughout the last couple of seasons. The dude sucks. Let's just move on and trade him for whatever turd sandwhich is coming our way and be done with it.

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