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Old
05-01-2014, 01:59 PM
  #451
hockeyfreak7
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Hartnell had 48 points in 81 games as a 22 year old. Guess what? He didn't develop much higher than that. He plateaued.

What aspect of Schenn's game screams "I will meet my potential?" There is a lot more about his game that screams "I'm not getting much better than this!"
I could easily go back and find posts about JVR saying, "What makes you think he'll ever put it all together and be a consistent threat?" I'll trust that you remember those posts, instead.

Yes, BSchenn has been frustrating. No arguments there. But the only reason he has been frustrating is because around the league, you have players developing quickly. Well, the reality is that not all players are close to their finished product by the age of 22. That's what's frustrating to me, but I realize it's one of the things that comes with the territory. Not all players operate on the same trajectory.


JVR took a leap in development when he went to Toronto not because he became better or more consistent, but because he got more opportunity and ice time. I refuse to give up or hate on BSchenn until he gets 16-18 minutes of ice time alongside Giroux and/or Voracek. But continue playing him minimal ES ice time with 5v5 disasters, and you shouldn't be surprised that he doesn't get much better than this.


So here's the thing, if you trade him and he breaks out, we complain just like we did with JVR. If we don't trade him, and he doesn't break out, we still complain and say, "the writing was on the wall when he was 22". It's so easy to make these decisions from a distance, then forget about them when things actually play out. Right now, patience is really all there is. Unless we're going to get a Roman Josi type defender in a deal for BSchenn, it is extremely short-sighted to give up on him like you have.

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05-01-2014, 01:59 PM
  #452
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Schenn for Weber.

Everyone's problem is solved. Thank me later.

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05-01-2014, 02:00 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Wow, too many posts to reply to.

1) I haven't given up on the kid. I don't want him traded. But I no longer have any hope that he'll be the impact player we thought we acquired. It looks now like he's a complimentary player. Teams need those too, but it does throw a large wrench into the planned running rebuild since our 2C plans are a mess.

2) BRAYDEN SCHENN SUCKS.
I don't think it's an issue at all. Putting a winger like Voracek out there with him makes it a non issue in my eyes.

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05-01-2014, 02:02 PM
  #454
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I think trading Brayden Schenn would be a mistake. He could score 30 goals if he was on a line with Giroux and got PP time. I think we should re-sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal around $2.5-$3 million per year and see how he does in a couple years.

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05-01-2014, 02:06 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by south jersey flyer View Post
I think trading Brayden Schenn would be a mistake. He could score 30 goals if he was on a line with Giroux and got PP time. I think we should re-sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal around $2.5-$3 million per year and see how he does in a couple years.
I agree. He scored 20 and most complain that he looked like **** in the process. Well with better linemates at ES and top PP minutes there is no doubt in my mind he becomes a 50+ player as he gets physically stronger (I think one of his biggest weaknesses is his strength which will improve over the next few years).

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05-01-2014, 02:08 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I agree. He scored 20 and most complain that he looked like **** in the process. Well with better linemates at ES and top PP minutes there is no doubt in my mind he becomes a 50+ player as he gets physically stronger (I think one of his biggest weaknesses is his strength which will improve over the next few years).
I still think with Berube's system being fully in place now and going into the pre-season/camp, it should be better as a whole for the team.

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05-01-2014, 02:08 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
I don't think anyone's forgotten that
the issue is that we've barely seen anything but mere glimpses of that kind of play from bschenn since then
There's been some inconsistencies & next year is definitely a defining year for him but let's be honest the coaching staff's haven't exactly put him in position to maximize his talents, not only do they not know what position they want him to play, they also don't exactly put him with the best of linemates that mesh well with his skill set. The best Brayden has played in these past two seasons was last year when they had him centering Voracek before Voracek got bumped up to jump start Giroux's play.

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05-01-2014, 02:09 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I could easily go back and find posts about JVR saying, "What makes you think he'll ever put it all together and be a consistent threat?" I'll trust that you remember those posts, instead.

Yes, BSchenn has been frustrating. No arguments there. But the only reason he has been frustrating is because around the league, you have players developing quickly. Well, the reality is that not all players are close to their finished product by the age of 22. That's what's frustrating to me, but I realize it's one of the things that comes with the territory. Not all players operate on the same trajectory.


JVR took a leap in development when he went to Toronto not because he became better or more consistent, but because he got more opportunity and ice time. I refuse to give up or hate on BSchenn until he gets 16-18 minutes of ice time alongside Giroux and/or Voracek. But continue playing him minimal ES ice time with 5v5 disasters, and you shouldn't be surprised that he doesn't get much better than this.


So here's the thing, if you trade him and he breaks out, we complain just like we did with JVR. If we don't trade him, and he doesn't break out, we still complain and say, "the writing was on the wall when he was 22". It's so easy to make these decisions from a distance, then forget about them when things actually play out. Right now, patience is really all there is. Unless we're going to get a Roman Josi type defender in a deal for BSchenn, it is extremely short-sighted to give up on him like you have.
It amuses me when people write serious posts about my Schenn hate because I have repeatedly stated that I have an unreasonable level of hatred for him. Why are people dealing with someone who has unreasonable views?


JVR repeatedly showed flashes of potential. He showed promise of hitting his projections. When he was traded I thought "well, we could regret that." If Schenn is traded my only regret will be that it will be difficult to forget his name before he retires. Is that so unreasonable?

I gave Schenn 2.5 years to show anything at all. Aside from one playoff series, he hasn't. And I don't mean I expected him to put up 70 points and be dominant, I just wanted to see anything to indicate he could be a high-level player. Maybe it's the concussions, but he just hasn't shown that on the ice. He fails the eyeball test badly and looks completely overwhelmed at both ends of the ice way, way too often...regardless of Vinny's presence on his line. I no longer consider him a core player. I am in the process of accepting that he is a secondary player. That process produces a lot of rage as exhaust in my model; I was built pre-catalytic converter.

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05-01-2014, 02:12 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Wow, too many posts to reply to.

1) I haven't given up on the kid. I don't want him traded. But I no longer have any hope that he'll be the impact player we thought we acquired. It looks now like he's a complimentary player. Teams need those too, but it does throw a large wrench into the planned running rebuild since our 2C plans are a mess.

2) BRAYDEN SCHENN SUCKS.

3) Perhaps he would improve if we hired Stevens to bake him things after good games. Give him incentive.
Would you rather him be Giroux's LW or would you rather Schenn be the 2C with Voracek on his RW?

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05-01-2014, 02:12 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It amuses me when people write serious posts about my Schenn hate because I have repeatedly stated that I have an unreasonable level of hatred for him. Why are people dealing with someone who has unreasonable views?
I wish others could admit it. Not just about B Schenn but some other players as well.

**cough**Luke Schenn**cough**

Those individuals know who they are.

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05-01-2014, 02:13 PM
  #461
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The incessant *****ing about BSchenn just frustrates me more than BSchenn's play frustrates me.

We're upset that he can't perform 5v5 by himself. Yes, I wish he could, but only the best players are capable of being consistent 5v5 when they are tied to weak 5v5 players.

Thought experiment: Run a Schenn-Giroux-Voracek line, and replace Hartnell with BSchenn on the top unit.

What's his output then? Probably around 55-60 points.

What's his value then? A lot higher than we perceive it now.

What's the frustration level then? Probably nonexistent.


I wish Schenn could be a dynamic 2C that can carry dead weight, but those expectations are not reasonable. Frustration is often nothing more than a product of unreasonable expectations. BSchenn is a good player, but he's not a guy who can generate consistent offense all by himself. But who really is capable of that?

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05-01-2014, 02:14 PM
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by south jersey flyer View Post
Would you rather him be Giroux's LW or would you rather Schenn be the 2C with Voracek on his RW?
For a while I wanted Schenn at 2C with Voracek at RW, but for now I'd rather see him on Giroux's LW. His decision making has been too bad to hack it at C.

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05-01-2014, 02:15 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It amuses me when people write serious posts about my Schenn hate because I have repeatedly stated that I have an unreasonable level of hatred for him. Why are people dealing with someone who has unreasonable views?
Though we all know this, we continue arguing because it eliminates the need for us to construct straw man arguments. Instead you build it for us, to which we all thank you for saving us from using logical fallacies.

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05-01-2014, 02:18 PM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I wish Schenn could be a dynamic 2C that can carry dead weight, but those expectations are not reasonable. Frustration is often nothing more than a product of unreasonable expectations. BSchenn is a good player, but he's not a guy who can generate consistent offense all by himself. But who really is capable of that?
I would say those expectations are thoroughly reasonable, since that's what he was supposed to become. He didn't project to be a Batman, but a solid Nightwing. Now he looks like he's more likely to become Krypto the Superdog.

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05-01-2014, 02:19 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I wish Schenn could be a dynamic 2C that can carry dead weight, but those expectations are not reasonable.
sure are a whole heck of a lot of people who have short memories re: bschenn's scouting reports
best player in the world not in the league to a decent complimentary player?

your point about him playing better if paired with #28 & #93 is akin to making an argument that water is indeed wet

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05-01-2014, 02:20 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by MickeyMelchiondo View Post
sure are a whole heck of a lot of people who have short memories re: bschenn's scouting reports
best player in the world not in the league to a decent complimentary player?

your point about him playing better if paired with #28 & #93 is akin to making an argument that water is indeed wet
We have to stop using the label "best prospect in the world" because one person used it and everyone ran with it. It's the same with people saying Richards and Carter were traded because of our media. It's silly.

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05-01-2014, 02:20 PM
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Though we all know this, we continue arguing because it eliminates the need for us to construct straw man arguments. Instead you build it for us, to which we all thank you for saving us from using logical fallacies.
I assure you my real views of Schenn are a lot more reasonable, but using him as a whipping boy is surprisingly cathartic and it gives me something to do until we have something more substantial to discuss in the offseason.


Though "whipping boy" might be too light a term for the smear campaign I've been running for the last two weeks .

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05-01-2014, 02:22 PM
  #468
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Are superhero references gonna become like a thing on HF now?

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05-01-2014, 02:24 PM
  #469
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We have to stop using the label "best prospect in the world" because one person used it and everyone ran with it. It's the same with people saying Richards and Carter were traded because of our media. It's silly.
I prefer the "Worst Player Not In the AHL" label.


OK I promise I'm stopping for the day, now.

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05-01-2014, 02:24 PM
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sure are a whole heck of a lot of people who have short memories re: bschenn's scouting reports
best player in the world not in the league to a decent complimentary player?
My point is that your unmet expectations should not define your perception of him.

Erik Johnson is not the Norris defender he was drafted to be, but that doesn't mean he's not an incredibly good player to have on your team.

Just because BSchenn isn't the stud he once was thought to be, doesn't mean he can't fill a very useful role on the team.

Quote:
your point about him playing better if paired with #28 & #93 is akin to making an argument that water is indeed wet
Okay, and yet we find ourselves *****ing about how 28 and 93 don't have a legitimate winger on the other side.

JVR didn't improve when he went to Toronto. He just got to play with Phil Kessel. And yet, his reputation skyrocketed. Is that akin to water being wet, too? Because it's the same damn thing.

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05-01-2014, 02:25 PM
  #471
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We have to stop using the label "best prospect in the world" because one person used it and everyone ran with it. It's the same with people saying Richards and Carter were traded because of our media. It's silly.
I once heard of some guy named Jiri Dopita. He was the best player in the world that wasn't in the NHL, I think. Turns out he wasn't very good.

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05-01-2014, 02:32 PM
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Yeah, I don't know about B Schenn... The numbers he put up are great for a 22 year old, but he just doesn't drive the play like you want him to. Especially for a center. It just doesn't make sense to me why he doesn't look as good on the wing.

What I heard about Schenn before we got him led me to believe we were getting a very different player than what we're seeing now. I was expecting a replacement for Carter/Richards down the line, and he just doesn't look like he can carry that mantle. It doesn't mean he's going to be a bust - he just looks like he's going to fit in as more of a complimentary player here. Which would be fine, except he apparently can't play wing for whatever reason.

I know he's only 22, but he's just not what I expected. I don't think he's a piece that you can build around for the future.

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05-01-2014, 02:38 PM
  #473
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To help others understand the frustration with Schenn looking like he won't meet expectations, I'll try to present a hypothetical situation justify our feelings of woe and doom.

Imagine you paid for a mystery burrito, billed as the "Best Burrito Not In Your Stomach." The mystery burrito menu option generally has good, positive reviews on Yelp, so you are confident you probably have rice, beans, and succulent meat inside this burrito wrapping. But, then you bite into it and discover it's nothing but wet dog hair and rat teeth. That burrito was not what you expected and hoped for. Chances are good you're going to be frustrated. Sure, you can still have it bronzed and turn it into a solid and very functional paperweight or mantelpiece decoration. But before that happens, you're probably still gonna be frustrated that you didn't get what was expected.

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05-01-2014, 03:11 PM
  #474
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My point is that your unmet expectations should not define your perception of him.
they aren't really my expectations-the scouting reports etc
my perception(s) of him as a player come from nothing more than the eye test

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Just because BSchenn isn't the stud he once was thought to be, doesn't mean he can't fill a very useful role on the team.
of course. but what is that role? centre? wing? playing on a top line? playing on a 3rd line? do we need to look at getting another 2nd line centre? [if you're not keen on Vinny there and bschenn isn't the answer] both the player and the org share some responsibility here...

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05-01-2014, 07:50 PM
  #475
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Considering the Flyers' situation at the time, yes, I think they were honestly hoping that Schenn would be able to step into the shoes of either Richards or Carter down the road. He was considered a top prospect (with a highly stupid label), and they had just traded two centers for two wingers. I have to think the org had hopes he would take one of their spots down the line behind Giroux...if not, then I don't get why they bother getting him, or what their logic could possibly have beeen; especially since they had no idea they were getting Couturier. As I recall Schenn was the centerpiece of the trade based on his assumed potential and Simmonds was the add-on.
Expecting Schenn to be a 2C and expecting him to be a Richards/Carter replacement are two different things. Richards and Carter were both high-end 2C's or middle of the road 1C's when they were here. I don't expect Schenn to reach their level. He might reach 70 points and hit 30 goals a few times, which is great for a 2C, but he probably won't hit 40 like Carter or be the kind of leader Richards was. Those guys are pretty damn hard to replace.

People are so negative around here. Schenn literally just played his first full season while being asked to carry his own line and not getting top PP minutes and he still put up 40 points and 20 goals. That's not bad for a first full season of a 22 year old, look at the list of comparable guys at his age. His development is perfectly fine and you people suggesting he's already peaked or doesn't have potential are bat **** insane. You're the bane of this franchise and the reason we have so much turnover. Settle down and watch this kid grow, I guarantee he'll improve.

I really just can't believe the vitriol Schenn is getting on here for having a perfectly acceptable season for someone his age and with his experience. But since he's not Mike Richards 2.0 we should ship him out. Makes me embarrassed to be a fan of this franchise.

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