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Which Norris finalist deserves to win the most?

View Poll Results: Which norris finalist deserves the to win the most with their play this season?
Weber 167 60.73%
Chara 25 9.09%
Keith 83 30.18%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-30-2014, 06:04 PM
  #101
Micklebot
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Do you not understand you are ignoring 90% of my argument for one very small detail? Orr would push Buffalo into the playoffs, i gave a very reasonable reason for why he "couldn't get his team to win the cup every season. I don't think you and others understand the fact that this era exists because of the one that came before it. You keep ignoring it but like i have said the drafting rules are a bigger factor here, Canadian emmigration to the US is very relevant, and like i said there isn't nearly as many europeans as you seem to think... certainly not enough to justify an expanison of the league to 3 times its size.

You are also very good at ignoring the comments that prove you wrong. Like claiming Phil Housley being the all time american leader in points at some point was a shame to his countries hockey heritage.
Ok, so why couldn't Gretzky(93/94) or Lemieux(88/87) guarantee their teams make the playoff? Is the concept of one of the greatest players of all time guaranteeing a playoff spot exclusive to defencemen? In both cases they lead the league in scoring, but couldn't pull their teams into the playoffs.

Your premise that one player can somehow turn the worst team in the league into a playoff team is absurd. Your suggesting he would turn 21 losses into wins by himself.

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04-30-2014, 06:24 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Weber didn't make the PO's, disqualified.

Chara was meh as hell.

Keith was meh, but he led every Dman in points and he did better than anyone else. He wins.

This is the worst group of Dman to be nominated since a while, IMO. Too many Dman had "MEH" years at the same time.
Why does not making the playoffs somehow disqualify you from being the best defenseman in the league?

If the Penguins didn't make the playoffs, would Crosby suddenly not be the best player in the league? Makes no sense at all.

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04-30-2014, 07:01 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by FloridaCap View Post
Why does not making the playoffs somehow disqualify you from being the best defenseman in the league?

If the Penguins didn't make the playoffs, would Crosby suddenly not be the best player in the league? Makes no sense at all.
It's often viewed as a dis-qualifier for the hart, but I'm not sure when it crept into Norris talk.

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Old
04-30-2014, 07:18 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Ok, so why couldn't Gretzky(93/94) or Lemieux(88/87) guarantee their teams make the playoff? Is the concept of one of the greatest players of all time guaranteeing a playoff spot exclusive to defencemen? In both cases they lead the league in scoring, but couldn't pull their teams into the playoffs.

Your premise that one player can somehow turn the worst team in the league into a playoff team is absurd. Your suggesting he would turn 21 losses into wins by himself.
That's post prime Gretzky and the first year a young Lemieux really broke out. Also referencing them proves my point, in their prime the teams they played on were pretty much a lock for the playoffs. There's always room for outliers but it doesn't change the fact this argument can only be based on probability though speculation. You play out the scenario of the current Sabres+prime Orr and they make the playoffs 9/10 times. He'd be easily the best player in the world, if you put Crosby on the Sabres they'd contend for the playoffs let alone Bobby Orr. Geez.

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Old
04-30-2014, 07:58 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
That's post prime Gretzky and the first year a young Lemieux really broke out. Also referencing them proves my point, in their prime the teams they played on were pretty much a lock for the playoffs. There's always room for outliers but it doesn't change the fact this argument can only be based on probability though speculation. You play out the scenario of the current Sabres+prime Orr and they make the playoffs 9/10 times. He'd be easily the best player in the world, if you put Crosby on the Sabres they'd contend for the playoffs let alone Bobby Orr. Geez.
I'm sorry that Lemieux's 2nd best production of his career (4th best pts per game) isn't enough for you. He only outscored Gretzky by 19 pts and savard by 37. So the second best year of Lemieux's career wasn't enough to drag a bottom feeder team into the playoffs, but you think Orr would and now Crosby too.

As for their prime years being locks, of course they were, their teams saw that they had the best players in the world and ensured that they were surrounded by top quality support. They weren't playing for bottom feeders. When Lemieux missed all but 26 games, his team won the division in 90-91. They did it again in 93-94 when he missed all but 22. Pittsburgh was a lock for the playoffs without Lemieux during his prime. Gretzky didn't miss any significant time in his prime, so no easy way to discern the quality of the team without him, however they did continue to be a strong team after the trade.

Anyways, this all starts from someone suggesting that a player should be dis-qualified from Norris contention because he couldn't drag his team into the playoffs, which if it's even debatable whether Orr, Lemieux, or Gretzky could do it is proof enough to me that it's an unreasonable standard.

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04-30-2014, 08:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I'm sorry that Lemieux's 2nd best production of his career (4th best pts per game) isn't enough for you. He only outscored Gretzky by 19 pts and savard by 37. So the second best year of Lemieux's career wasn't enough to drag a bottom feeder team into the playoffs, but you think Orr would and now Crosby too.

As for their prime years being locks, of course they were, their teams saw that they had the best players in the world and ensured that they were surrounded by top quality support. They weren't playing for bottom feeders. When Lemieux missed all but 26 games, his team won the division in 90-91. They did it again in 93-94 when he missed all but 22. Pittsburgh was a lock for the playoffs without Lemieux during his prime. Gretzky didn't miss any significant time in his prime, so no easy way to discern the quality of the team without him, however they did continue to be a strong team after the trade.

Anyways, this all starts from someone suggesting that a player should be dis-qualified from Norris contention because he couldn't drag his team into the playoffs, which if it's even debatable whether Orr, Lemieux, or Gretzky could do it is proof enough to me that it's an unreasonable standard.
I called it an outlier and it is.

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Old
04-30-2014, 08:26 PM
  #107
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False, it's actually the PHWA.

They have a pretty good grasp on hockey for the most part, believe it or not. I trust them for finding a good consensus on who the top D-Man is.


hope your not in majority.

phwa is a joke.... Some quality no doubt... but majority just cover their own team and highlites/stat sheets for other guys... also rumors of vote swapping between members (ie- vote my guy for Norris i vote your guy vezina)

Think process. needs major change (NO to any fan vote)... let gms/coaches/scouts/players have a say/vote, i think that is best

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Old
04-30-2014, 08:35 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I called it an outlier and it is.
You also suggested that Lemieux in his prime made them a lock. I showed they were a lock without him. You call it an outlier, I call it a small sample, since we really don't have many years where either Gretzky or Lemieux played for a bottom feeder (none in their primes imo).

Boston continued to be a strong team when Orr's injuries no longer allowed him to play. They were a strong team (tied for 1st) in his second year where he missed nearly half the season. There really is nothing to substantiate your assumption that he would drag bottom feeder teams into the playoffs.

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04-30-2014, 10:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Buckets and Gloves View Post


hope your not in majority.

phwa is a joke.... Some quality no doubt... but majority just cover their own team and highlites/stat sheets for other guys... also rumors of vote swapping between members (ie- vote my guy for Norris i vote your guy vezina)

Think process. needs major change (NO to any fan vote)... let gms/coaches/scouts/players have a say/vote, i think that is best
By all means, I'd prefer the GM's or the NHLPA to vote on it too.

The hockey writers consensus is sure as **** better than the consensus here.

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Old
05-01-2014, 08:30 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by CDJ View Post
False, it's actually the PHWA.

They have a pretty good grasp on hockey for the most part, believe it or not. I trust them for finding a good consensus on who the top D-Man is.
My bad, that's actually what I meant. Sorry, too many acronyms in daily life now right?

Anyway, they did a great job last year of deciding who was the best left winger and best right winger in the game, right? Ovechkin ftw......

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Old
05-01-2014, 08:55 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
My bad, that's actually what I meant. Sorry, too many acronyms in daily life now right?

Anyway, they did a great job last year of deciding who was the best left winger and best right winger in the game, right? Ovechkin ftw......
Trust me, I totally get it with the acronyms. I'm trying to study for a wastewater treatment certification exam so my life is acronyms at the moment

I thought Ovechkin played great last year. At least he wasn't a -649395

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Old
05-01-2014, 01:23 PM
  #112
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Weber deserves to win this award some time, he was robbed of it before. I am not sure he deserves it more than either of the others for this season though, it is a tough decision for me but I am voting Weber because he should have already won it and I thought Chara should have won it a couple of other years too.

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Old
05-02-2014, 03:42 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
You also suggested that Lemieux in his prime made them a lock. I showed they were a lock without him. You call it an outlier, I call it a small sample, since we really don't have many years where either Gretzky or Lemieux played for a bottom feeder (none in their primes imo).

Boston continued to be a strong team when Orr's injuries no longer allowed him to play. They were a strong team (tied for 1st) in his second year where he missed nearly half the season. There really is nothing to substantiate your assumption that he would drag bottom feeder teams into the playoffs.
The Penguins missed the playoffs by a point and Lemieux missed 3 games, this is the only season you have in favour of your argument. Literally the only prime season of the big 3 where a healthy majority of the games were played. That's 1 in what 20? These guys didn't play for bottom feeders because of how good they were. Sure the Bruins had a good team but Orr made them all so much better, Esposito being the obvious example. Also winning teams tend to develop an aura about them that allows them to be greater than the sum of their parts. Winning breeds winning. The Pens were a bottom feeder before Lemieux, that's why they got to draft him. I don't think it's a crazy assumption to believe arguably the greatest peak player of all time would make the Sabres a playoff team in his prime, in fact i think you're crazy for arguing otherwise.

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Old
05-02-2014, 06:26 AM
  #114
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Shea Weber.

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05-02-2014, 11:08 AM
  #115
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Weber AINEC.

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05-02-2014, 11:09 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
The Penguins missed the playoffs by a point and Lemieux missed 3 games, this is the only season you have in favour of your argument. Literally the only prime season of the big 3 where a healthy majority of the games were played. That's 1 in what 20? These guys didn't play for bottom feeders because of how good they were. Sure the Bruins had a good team but Orr made them all so much better, Esposito being the obvious example. Also winning teams tend to develop an aura about them that allows them to be greater than the sum of their parts. Winning breeds winning. The Pens were a bottom feeder before Lemieux, that's why they got to draft him. I don't think it's a crazy assumption to believe arguably the greatest peak player of all time would make the Sabres a playoff team in his prime, in fact i think you're crazy for arguing otherwise.
1. There aren't many examples of Lemieux, Gretzky, or Orr playing on bottom feeder teams because when a team identifies they have a talent of that magnitude, they do what the can to support him. This is evident by looking at how those teams did when the star player was injured or traded away.

2. That one example happens to be one of the best performances all time, and it wasn't enough.

3. We are talking about whether a single player can convert 21 loses into wins. That 42 points generated by a single player. HockeyReference has an estimate of pts produced in a season, and while no where near perfect, the best ever is 22.9 pts (Orr). Hockey is a team game, one player making that big a difference is simply unrealistic. He plays at best half the game, and is one of 5 (6 if you count the goalie) players on the ice durring that time.

Anyways, I think both of us have spent too much time on this, and I'm going to walk away at this point.

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05-02-2014, 02:21 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
1. There aren't many examples of Lemieux, Gretzky, or Orr playing on bottom feeder teams because when a team identifies they have a talent of that magnitude, they do what the can to support him. This is evident by looking at how those teams did when the star player was injured or traded away.

2. That one example happens to be one of the best performances all time, and it wasn't enough.

3. We are talking about whether a single player can convert 21 loses into wins. That 42 points generated by a single player. HockeyReference has an estimate of pts produced in a season, and while no where near perfect, the best ever is 22.9 pts (Orr). Hockey is a team game, one player making that big a difference is simply unrealistic. He plays at best half the game, and is one of 5 (6 if you count the goalie) players on the ice durring that time.

Anyways, I think both of us have spent too much time on this, and I'm going to walk away at this point.
I disagree but kudos to a well thought out and intelligent argument.

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05-02-2014, 02:23 PM
  #118
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Suter!

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05-02-2014, 02:27 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
"general consensus" of the NHLPA.
Just a small correction, but Norris is voted on by the PHWA (Professional Hockey Writers' Association). The NHLPA votes for the Ted Lindsay Award.

edit: I see it's already been addressed. For the record, I disagree that the entire PHWA has a pretty good grasp of what is going on around the league. They may have a better grasp than a lot of people, but they still make mistakes that shouldn't be made (Ovechkin being voted to the NHL All Star Teams at both LW and RW nearly cost Hall, literally). Personally, I would take NHL Awards more seriously if the NHLPA and GMs voted on all of them.

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05-02-2014, 02:32 PM
  #120
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05-03-2014, 12:02 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I disagree but kudos to a well thought out and intelligent argument.
Life would be dull if everyone agreed. Cheers

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05-03-2014, 12:43 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Just a small correction, but Norris is voted on by the PHWA (Professional Hockey Writers' Association). The NHLPA votes for the Ted Lindsay Award.

edit: I see it's already been addressed. For the record, I disagree that the entire PHWA has a pretty good grasp of what is going on around the league. They may have a better grasp than a lot of people, but they still make mistakes that shouldn't be made (Ovechkin being voted to the NHL All Star Teams at both LW and RW nearly cost Hall, literally). Personally, I would take NHL Awards more seriously if the NHLPA and GMs voted on all of them.

So much that, although GM's can be corrupted or super biased, but I'd love NHLPA to vote on everything, you know because they are the most knowledgeable and diverse group as you can get.

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