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If Lindros Never Got a Concussion

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05-10-2014, 04:31 AM
  #1
HeadShot
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If Lindros Never Got a Concussion

If Eric Lindros never battled his concussion issues and remained relatively healthy as the Flyers
franchise player would he have been able to bring us a cup?

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05-10-2014, 04:36 AM
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Beef Invictus
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No.

You need more than 1 player to win a Cup. Clarke wasn't in the habit of building deep teams, he was producing top-heavy teams that the heavyweights could shut down.

If Gretzky couldn't win a Cup in LA, there's no way an unconcussed Lindros wins a Cup in Philly without teams with more than 1.5-2 lines. Especially not with the generally average at best goaltending.

Lindros was like a Marcel Dionne with a better supporting cast, but still not enough.

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05-10-2014, 06:17 AM
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On his own... no.

But had he played until age ~40 I imagine the Flyers would have had one.

Look at Jagr and Lindros up to the end of Lindros's days as a Flyer. (bearing in mind Lindros had played 2 less seasons and is a year younger.)

Regular season:

Lindros: 486GP, 290G, 369A, 659P, 17.6 S%, 0.6 GPG, 0.76 APG, 1.36 PPG,
Point share per game: 0.163, Goals created per game: 0.53

Jagr: 725GP, 387G, 571A, 958P, 14.9 S%, 0.53 GPG, 0.79 APG, 1.32 PPG,
Point share per game: 0.142, Goals created per game: 0.50

Post season:

Lindros: 50GP, 24G, 33A, 57P, 0.48 GPG, 0.66 APG, 1.14 PPG

Jagr: 124GP, 63G, 72A, 135P, 0.51GPG, 0.58 APG, 1.09 PPG

In the regular season only Lemieux and Gretzky had outproduced Lindros in that span.
In the post season only Lemieux, Gretzky and Fleury had outproduced Lindros in that span.

Up until Lindros's 6th Concussion he had outproduced Jagr... and all of his peers minus arguably the greatest 2 players in NHL history... in both the regular season and playoffs per game. (apart from Fleury of all people!)

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05-10-2014, 06:38 AM
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Legion of Gloom
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Yes

He would have beat up S.Stevens after the hit and put them away to go on and win the Cup. Plus he would have been in the lineup to begin with and we would have put them away in five games

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05-10-2014, 07:44 AM
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The Rage Kage
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You could also ask what if we didn't trade all our depth to the nordiques for lindros, we would have still had a great scorer in forsberg but would've had relative depth to back him up when he gets shut down. That and forsberg didn't whine about who he was drafted by. IMO we would've had a better chance before the trade.

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05-10-2014, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage Kage View Post
You could also ask what if we didn't trade all our depth to the nordiques for lindros, we would have still had a great scorer in forsberg but would've had relative depth to back him up when he gets shut down. That and forsberg didn't whine about who he was drafted by. IMO we would've had a better chance before the trade.
and take Jagr instead of Ricci
Forsberg and Jagr all day long

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05-10-2014, 08:16 AM
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Hockeypete49
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Quote:
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and take Jagr instead of Ricci
Forsberg and Jagr all day long
Jagr was ranked 5th that year and even back then no one knew just when he would come to the states. If you remember the Hockey News did not even have a photo of Forsberg that year and he was ranked a 2nd rounder and the Flyers picked him in the 1st, I was in love with getting the big E. But as it turned out he was a Momma's boy and was not mature. I have friends who are from Ontario and just hate him. We used to get in big fights about him and it turned out they were right. One issue was that he never learned to skate with the puck with his head up. In junior he could get away with it cause most players were scared of him. But once he got to the NHL they could find the weakness in his game and use it against him. Shame.

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05-10-2014, 11:07 AM
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Bryz4shiz
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Lindros' concussion issues weren't his only physical problems. His knees and shoulders were ****ed up from having teams water skiing off his body.


Last edited by BlameUtley: 05-10-2014 at 01:45 PM. Reason: that is speculation.
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05-10-2014, 11:14 AM
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The Rage Kage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
and take Jagr instead of Ricci
Forsberg and Jagr all day long
Oh man just imagine what we could've done

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05-10-2014, 11:16 AM
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The Rage Kage
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Forsberg was always one of my favourite players and I was really glad when we brought him back

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05-10-2014, 03:00 PM
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They might have won it in 2000.

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05-10-2014, 09:47 PM
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sobrien
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Agree with large chunks of what was said above. Lindros couldn't do it alone. But the team they iced in 2000 til the lockout WITH a healthy Lindros would have had the best chance by far.

Gagne - Lindros - LeClair
Kapanen - Primeau - Recchi
Amonte - Zhamnov - Roenick
Williams - Handzus - Sharp
Brashear

Desjardins - Therien
Pitkanen - Weinrich
McGillis - Richardson
Seidenberg

Esche/Cechmanek/Boucher/Burke

*assuming we would have kept Sharp, Therien and Justin Williams and re-signed McGillis and Richardson


GFG what a team, even with "meh" goaltending. Damn Clarke for not being able to sit on his hands...

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05-10-2014, 11:52 PM
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Norm MacDonald
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A bit off topic, but...
The Flyers have a despicable track record of handling concussions, and it's probably one of the things I hate most about the team. Some may make the excuse that concussions weren't researched as much as they are today and trainers didn't know how to properly deal with them, but that's horse ****. If they were really concerned about the health of the players, they would have taken injuries to the brain seriously. As a result of their willful negligence, quite a few players have had their lives wrecked.

And I know the Flyers weren't the only team responsible, but that doesn't make what they did any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No.

You need more than 1 player to win a Cup. Clarke wasn't in the habit of building deep teams, he was producing top-heavy teams that the heavyweights could shut down.

If Gretzky couldn't win a Cup in LA, there's no way an unconcussed Lindros wins a Cup in Philly without teams with more than 1.5-2 lines. Especially not with the generally average at best goaltending.

Lindros was like a Marcel Dionne with a better supporting cast, but still not enough.
They had a very strong team, and came close a few times. If he weren't concussed in 2000 he very well may have led the team to a cup. Then again, maybe he shouldn't have come back to play in 2000 in the first place.

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05-11-2014, 12:36 AM
  #14
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I'm a firm believer if Lindros didn't suffer concussions the Flyers would have won a cup between 2001-2006. He would have DOMINATED post lock out with no clutching or grabbing and I'm fairly certain the Flyers still acquire Forsberg post lock out too. A lot of its ifs ands and buts but a healthy Lindros puts the 03-04 past Tampa etc etc

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05-11-2014, 12:53 AM
  #15
Beef Invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
A bit off topic, but...
The Flyers have a despicable track record of handling concussions, and it's probably one of the things I hate most about the team. Some may make the excuse that concussions weren't researched as much as they are today and trainers didn't know how to properly deal with them, but that's horse ****. If they were really concerned about the health of the players, they would have taken injuries to the brain seriously. As a result of their willful negligence, quite a few players have had their lives wrecked.

And I know the Flyers weren't the only team responsible, but that doesn't make what they did any better.

They had a very strong team, and came close a few times. If he weren't concussed in 2000 he very well may have led the team to a cup. Then again, maybe he shouldn't have come back to play in 2000 in the first place.
I agree with everything here.

And yes, they were a very strong team. The pity is that there were a few semi-dynasties that I think were stronger in general.


A bit of an aside, (but discussion of the Lindros era and thinking on the goaltending ride we've had for ages reminded me) but a few months ago NHL Network replayed the 1999 Cup Finals between Dallas and Buffalo. Tim Thomas was great in 2011, but Belfour and Hasek in that series were both just as good, if not better at points. That duel was just insane.

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05-11-2014, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Agree with large chunks of what was said above. Lindros couldn't do it alone. But the team they iced in 2000 til the lockout WITH a healthy Lindros would have had the best chance by far.

Gagne - Lindros - LeClair
Kapanen - Primeau - Recchi
Amonte - Zhamnov - Roenick
Williams - Handzus - Sharp
Brashear

Desjardins - Therien
Pitkanen - Weinrich
McGillis - Richardson
Seidenberg

Esche/Cechmanek/Boucher/Burke

*assuming we would have kept Sharp, Therien and Justin Williams and re-signed McGillis and Richardson


GFG what a team, even with "meh" goaltending. Damn Clarke for not being able to sit on his hands...
I think you mean in 2003/2004. I see your point there though, on a year-by-year basis, if we had retained most of our stars from the depth chart above too of course.

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05-11-2014, 03:44 AM
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That team looks amazing on paper. Wow.

And the goaltending wasn't even all that bad. Cechmanek was good IMO, he just was inconsistent come playoff time. I think though had they given him more time/a bigger sample size in the playoffs, he would of performed; and to a much-greater extent than previous postseasons.

Remember, he finished as the runner-up to Hasek for the Vezina in his rookie year of 00-01; the year Lindros sat out after the Stevens' hit and contract dispute.

Anyways, it's good to dream though. Wish Lindros would of stuck around, from a health standpoint.

I also have a theory that had he remained healthy throughout his career, the contract dispute in 2000 wouldn't of occurred. That occurred primarily because of lindros wanting a certain figure contract wise, and clarke refusing to pay him x amount of dollars due to his repeated history with concussion/concussion symptoms. Frankly, I don't blame Clarke for doing so, depending upon how much Lindros really wanted $$$$ wise.

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05-11-2014, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
A bit off topic, but...
The Flyers have a despicable track record of handling concussions, and it's probably one of the things I hate most about the team. Some may make the excuse that concussions weren't researched as much as they are today and trainers didn't know how to properly deal with them, but that's horse ****. If they were really concerned about the health of the players, they would have taken injuries to the brain seriously. As a result of their willful negligence, quite a few players have had their lives wrecked.

And I know the Flyers weren't the only team responsible, but that doesn't make what they did any better.

They had a very strong team, and came close a few times. If he weren't concussed in 2000 he very well may have led the team to a cup. Then again, maybe he shouldn't have come back to play in 2000 in the first place.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...ndros_history/

Some of the quotes in this piece...

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05-13-2014, 08:03 AM
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OrangeMan
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The Flyers would have needed a quality goaltender for Lindros to have won a cup.

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05-13-2014, 08:09 AM
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If 88 never got his concussions, I think they likely would have gotten a Cup. 2000 I think was their best bet shot, had he been healthy they beat the Devils and the Stars. 2004 (assuming he remained with the club because he would have been "our guy" at that point) I think they would have done it too. Who knows though. Really too tough to look back and point anything out. If he doesn't get those concussion maybe he tears an ACL.

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05-13-2014, 08:14 AM
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I'd rather play what-if on Pronger. I was a little young during the Lindross era, but i think if Pronger never gets hurt we had a serious shot to get back in Cup finals

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05-13-2014, 09:34 AM
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StandingCow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...ndros_history/

Some of the quotes in this piece...
Thanks for that link Apple... wow. His team mates and Dr. Stone and Leslie were the only ones that seemed to know how serious his situation was... the team doctors, etc were concerned with nothing more than putting him on the ice, ready or not.

I am glad concussions are treated more seriously now, but it still isn't near perfect... maybe the NHL should have non-bias doctors that work for the league check these guys out.

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05-13-2014, 10:37 AM
  #23
OriginJM
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these threads are the worst

"what if lindros never got a concussion"
"what if boosh was in for game 6?"
"what if we won the draft lottery and got kane?"

etc.

no one knows, no one will ever know. sorry to be a debbie downer.

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05-14-2014, 03:43 PM
  #24
The Rage Kage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
these threads are the worst

"what if lindros never got a concussion"
"what if boosh was in for game 6?"
"what if we won the draft lottery and got kane?"

etc.

no one knows, no one will ever know. sorry to be a debbie downer.
It's all just speculation though, and people are curious about what could have been

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05-14-2014, 03:51 PM
  #25
Curufinwe
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Quote:
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The Flyers would have needed a quality goaltender for Lindros to have won a cup.
They had one in the playoffs in 2000 and in 2004.

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