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Old
05-13-2014, 01:18 AM
  #76
dackelljuneaubulis02
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The OT winner was partly his fault. Fraser was his man, that he let go from the back of the net to the front and hit that loose puck in. Even Murray admitted he lost coverage of his man. So ya, it was his fault.


Nobody is underestimating the physical effect of a player. That player however, needs to be good, and Murray simply is not. He's a terrible player, and being physical will NEVER overvalue being terrible.


For sure, it will happen in every game, to every player. But when it happens every game to the same player versus the weakest opposition regardless of whether you get defensive zone starts or offensive ones, then it becomes a problem not a random event.
And we're not talking about spending one shift in your zone, we're talking about the majority of his ES time. So no, it's not an ''once in a while'' scenario.

No, there is no good reason. Not when your plan is to make a run for it, and when you go after Vanek at the deadline, it's not so you can be eliminated in the 2nd round. You don't need to discipline Beaulieu into possibly not playing again for the Habs during this year. He's a 21yo rookie, and we have a pretty strong team with a good amount of leadership, there's no way he walks in here with his head high.
yeah but Murray does come out of his first game in the line up a +1. You're not going to bench him after that. That OT winner, fine he blows coverage but he's far from the reason that goal goes in. And up until that point the Bs haven't scored a goal and we outplayed the Bs.

Like the Hammer/Spacek duo. They were horrendous in their own zone but bottom line they kept the puck out of the net.

If Murray's more mobile then he's a top 4 D man. Cube need to be replaced and MT went for a vet instead of a rookie. One that's one of the most intimidating players in the game. That can effect a whole team's play and give them more confidence. Just because you can't measure it with stats doesn't mean it's not true and it also doesn't mean that it'll work positively all the time.

I think I need to be clear that I'm not saying Murray is better than Beaulieu. I think that much should be obvious. All I'm saying is that going with Murray made sense and it worked at first. Boston's more physical than fast.

obviously something off the ice happened with Beaulieu in order to be sent down. he was playing fantastic. and why shouldn't a young kid be made to learn a few lessons if he's got an alleged attitude problem?

Why are some still insisting on this bumbling portrait of MT and management? That's my bottom line. I'm not denying Murray's inadequacies at all.

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05-13-2014, 07:40 AM
  #77
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Great game for him tonight. I anticipated some mistakes but they never came.

From very early on he was on you could see the difference. In his own zone, gets to the puck first, outlet pass and scoring chance against the Bruins. No fumbling around, no getting hemmed into our own zone, no desperate icing attempt. Just good puck movement and transition.
I genuinely don't think you can understate how important Beaulieu's presence was on that third pair last night. Instead of being a brutally exploitable matchup for the Bruins, as it was with Bouillon and especially Murray, the Bruins really couldn't make any headway against it. We had three reliable defensive pairings for the first time in the series last night and it paid off in spades. That long outlet pass by NB to MaxPac -- neither Bouillon nor Murray could have made that play. Period. Yes it took a lucky bounce to still end up on Max's stick, but we would never have been in position to get that bounce had either of the anchors been on the ice in NB's place.

You can still see that NB is raw in his positioning, but he's got great speed, good vision, good passing ability, and doesn't give up on any plays. That speed mattered last night as we really outskated the B's up & down the entire lineup last night. That's what we have to do to win game 7.

Please, MT, in the name of the Richards, don't screw this up for G7!

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05-13-2014, 07:57 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
That long outlet pass by NB to MaxPac -- neither Bouillon nor Murray could have made that play. Period. Yes it took a lucky bounce to still end up on Max's stick...
Yes, it was incredibly fortunate that Eriksson swatted the puck almost directly to Pacioretty. Not even Beaulieu could do that twice. Period.

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05-13-2014, 08:06 AM
  #79
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Yes, it was incredibly fortunate that Eriksson swatted the puck almost directly to Pacioretty. Not even Beaulieu could do that twice. Period.
Watch that play again, especially from the on-ice angle. NB isn't just mindlessly dumping the puck out of the zone like FB & DM would have done (check that; DM wouldn't have had the puck in the first place). His head is up and the moment he spots Max out at center ice he makes the pass toward him. If it hadn't been deflected it was going straight to Max anyway, so the end result was the same.

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05-13-2014, 08:07 AM
  #80
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Great player in nhl14

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05-13-2014, 08:13 AM
  #81
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But I read that Timmins can't draft in the first round.

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05-13-2014, 08:21 AM
  #82
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its just..

its the way he JUMPS in on the rush EVERYtime...its such an advantage and luxury to have

beaulieu turns 3 on 2's and on 3 on 3's into 4 on 2's and 4 on 3's CONSTANTLY and its great to watch , he REALLY wants to get implicated offensively even when its not a powerplay, he simply creates offense, and hes got enough speed to come back into position

i swear...even pk subban didnt jump in on the rush at 21 like this kid does..hell pk doesnt do it NOW even lol (he brings it up himself or stays back)

very impresed with his puck awareness too, he jumped ALL over that puck and sent it RIGHT down the ice knowing full well pacioretty was on the ice and bolting and it just worked out

really proud of this kid, i seriously CANNOT believe after *****ing about wanting beaulieu in the line up for WEEKS and thinking omg its NEVER gonna happen ... all of a sudden out of nowhere, not only did he just play a game but its safe to say he wont be taken out for a while either.. cant believe its happening right now and dont have to wait another year to see him try to prove himself

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05-13-2014, 08:23 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Watch that play again, especially from the on-ice angle. NB isn't just mindlessly dumping the puck out of the zone like FB & DM would have done (check that; DM wouldn't have had the puck in the first place). His head is up and the moment he spots Max out at center ice he makes the pass toward him. If it hadn't been deflected it was going straight to Max anyway, so the end result was the same.
The great play was in the Dzone coming up with that puck. But you are absolutely correct.
The play was well read and Nate had his head up the whole time.
N B brings an element we sorely lack the prevention of the mindless dumping of the puck.
That type of play will eliminate those constant icings that lead to us being hemmed in.

There was a defensive play that was spectacular in its execution that perhaps went unnoticed.
The Bruins winger tips a puck past NB at the blue he is clearly going to beat him to the puck.
Weaver slides over to take up the slack and leaves a Bruin wide open driving the net.
Nate upon completing his pivot assesses the danger and closed on the Bruin in about three strides.
It was a thing of beauty....


Last edited by Rapala: 05-13-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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05-13-2014, 08:27 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Watch that play again, especially from the on-ice angle. NB isn't just mindlessly dumping the puck out of the zone like FB & DM would have done (check that; DM wouldn't have had the puck in the first place). His head is up and the moment he spots Max out at center ice he makes the pass toward him. If it hadn't been deflected it was going straight to Max anyway, so the end result was the same.
yup, beaulieu even said post game soon as he got the puck he saw pacioretty BOLT up ice and he just tried to get it to him however possible, defintely a fortunate bounce helped

but theres 0 doubt in my mind, bouillon probably sees patches but never comes up with the balls to send it up ice without icing it taking too long to make a decision, and murray wouldnt of seen pacioretty take off period and probably tries to take it up himself at 9km/hour

marc, next year, PLEASE only sign weaver as a vet on D plz...beaulieu tinordi and pateryn are plenty freakin depth

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05-13-2014, 08:28 AM
  #85
Rapala
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Subban doesn't jump plays like Nate even now...
Markov was/is our only D able to do this his mobility has hampered him in his execution/attempts.
It is one area I'd like someone to work with PK on.

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05-13-2014, 08:32 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
yup, beaulieu even said post game soon as he got the puck he saw pacioretty BOLT up ice and he just tried to get it to him however possible, defintely a fortunate bounce helped

but theres 0 doubt in my mind, bouillon probably sees patches but never comes up with the balls to send it up ice without icing it taking too long to make a decision, and murray wouldnt of seen pacioretty take off period and probably tries to take it up himself at 9km/hour

marc, next year, PLEASE only sign weaver as a vet on D plz...beaulieu tinordi and pateryn are plenty freakin depth
You Sir are very generous towards Cube.
He is neither looking at nor considering an offensive play at that point.
He would be concentrated on getting it off the glass without going over.

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05-13-2014, 08:33 AM
  #87
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yeah but Murray does come out of his first game in the line up a +1. You're not going to bench him after that. That OT winner, fine he blows coverage but he's far from the reason that goal goes in. And up until that point the Bs haven't scored a goal and we outplayed the Bs.

Like the Hammer/Spacek duo. They were horrendous in their own zone but bottom line they kept the puck out of the net.

If Murray's more mobile then he's a top 4 D man. Cube need to be replaced and MT went for a vet instead of a rookie. One that's one of the most intimidating players in the game. That can effect a whole team's play and give them more confidence. Just because you can't measure it with stats doesn't mean it's not true and it also doesn't mean that it'll work positively all the time.

I think I need to be clear that I'm not saying Murray is better than Beaulieu. I think that much should be obvious. All I'm saying is that going with Murray made sense and it worked at first. Boston's more physical than fast.

obviously something off the ice happened with Beaulieu in order to be sent down. he was playing fantastic. and why shouldn't a young kid be made to learn a few lessons if he's got an alleged attitude problem?

Why are some still insisting on this bumbling portrait of MT and management? That's my bottom line. I'm not denying Murray's inadequacies at all.
Agree. This "Player X IS BETTER THAN Player Y" argument ignores team need, eg a Ford F-150 is better than a Porsche 911 if you need to plow something. Murray has his role and played it well.

If MT had brought Beaulieu, Tinordi and Pateryn along properly this season we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What are the chances that NB into the lineup was a MB decision, GM pulling rank??

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05-13-2014, 08:40 AM
  #88
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Good stuff by Beaulieu last night. I think we all knew he has the talent to be here, it's just the decision making, that can only be improved with experience at the NHL level.
Same story for Tinordi. The talent gap between those 2 and Bouillon, Murray, Weaver is huge. I can't help but wonder how good our D could be right now if they had gotten more of a chance to learn and get comfortable at this level during the season.

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05-13-2014, 08:50 AM
  #89
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Good stuff by Beaulieu last night. I think we all knew he has the talent to be here, it's just the decision making, that can only be improved with experience at the NHL level.
Same story for Tinordi. The talent gap between those 2 and Bouillon, Murray, Weaver is huge. I can't help but wonder how good our D could be right now if they had gotten more of a chance to learn and get comfortable at this level during the season.
It's easy to look back and wish Beaulieu had gotten more experience during the season. He'd have been in the lineup during the playoffs, which would've been great. But in fairness, the Habs have been developing their youth carefully, so it's possible bringing him up earlier would've done more harm than good.

And no matter what happens tomorrow, had you asked us a few months ago, I think most fans would've been happy getting as far as game-seven against Boston in round-two. No matter what we each think of this or that player, the team and the organization did well. Colour this season a success.

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05-13-2014, 08:59 AM
  #90
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I think we should dump either Emelin or Gorges next year.

Markov-Subban
Emelin-Tinordi
Beaulieu-Weaver

Extra Pateryn
You realize this is Emelin's first NHL PO right?

Would not mind seeing Gorges go as part of a trade for a young wing though.

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05-13-2014, 09:03 AM
  #91
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It's easy to look back and wish Beaulieu had gotten more experience during the season. He'd have been in the lineup during the playoffs, which would've been great. But in fairness, the Habs have been developing their youth carefully, so it's possible bringing him up earlier would've done more harm than good.
I personally don't see how it could've hurt him or us. Anyways, better late than never. I didn't expect to see him and here we are. It paid off in spades. And if we win game 7 bringing him in late doesn't really matter in the long run.
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And no matter what happens tomorrow, had you asked us a few months ago, I think most fans would've been happy getting as far as game-seven against Boston in round-two. No matter what we each think of this or that player, the team and the organization did well. Colour this season a success.
Let's wait until the game 7 win to say this.

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05-13-2014, 09:11 AM
  #92
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It's easy to look back and wish Beaulieu had gotten more experience during the season. He'd have been in the lineup during the playoffs, which would've been great. But in fairness, the Habs have been developing their youth carefully, so it's possible bringing him up earlier would've done more harm than good.

And no matter what happens tomorrow, had you asked us a few months ago, I think most fans would've been happy getting as far as game-seven against Boston in round-two. No matter what we each think of this or that player, the team and the organization did well. Colour this season a success.
Absolutely I agree. I'm not satisfied with what they've done so far, but I'm proud of the team and very hopeful for the future.
As far as being careful with Beaulieu and Tinordi, that may be the right choice, especially with defensemen opposed to bringing the Gally's in right away. But at the same time, look at how well Hamilton and Krug have done for a defensive minded team in Boston. Very similar tandem to Beaulieu and Tinordi who were able to step into one of the best teams in the league.
I think the waiting game should come to end by next season. I'd be disappointed if it didn't.

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05-13-2014, 09:50 AM
  #93
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Agree. This "Player X IS BETTER THAN Player Y" argument ignores team need, eg a Ford F-150 is better than a Porsche 911 if you need to plow something. Murray has his role and played it well.
If Murray's an F150, then he's got a blown engine, a transmission stuck in first gear, a busted steering column, and a couple of flat tires. No fixing that; it's only good for the junkyard.

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05-13-2014, 10:39 AM
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Agree. This "Player X IS BETTER THAN Player Y" argument ignores team need, eg a Ford F-150 is better than a Porsche 911 if you need to plow something. Murray has his role and played it well.

If MT had brought Beaulieu, Tinordi and Pateryn along properly this season we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What are the chances that NB into the lineup was a MB decision, GM pulling rank??
This is a very interesting question.

I have hated the way the Habs have dealt with players with attitude issues or behavior incidents because that has cost us Roy, Chelios, Ribs, Carbonneau etc. I liked that MB came from the hawks because they had a guy like that in Kane, but he is still a hawk, so I thought MB would be more patient. MB also set up mentors, loved it. MB just also seems like a more tolerant guy.

To me, I would think at first glance that it would be the GM who would have to say this player has attitude problems and will cool his heels in the AHL. In that case of course it falls on MB.

On the other hand, I am now wondering if it was MT. If he heard about how Beaulieu responded on being sent back and decided he wouldn't play him. Given MTs treatment of PK that more fits his personality than that of MB. If I was a conspiracy guy I would also think of how keeping Beaulieu in the minors would also help MT argue that Cubes should be brought back for another year ( no shot at Cubes here, he is what he is and he gives it full effort and works hard ).

So I would love to know. Did MB say Beaulieu was a Do Not Play and just changed his mind, or was MT the guy who wasn't interested in playing him. If it was MB then bad on him but at least he didn't trade him.

If it was MT who wasn't playing him then my bet is it was MB who made the call to put him in because if Beaulieu was put in and played badly you could blame lack of playing, but if he played well then the questions would pop up about why he wasn't being played. So MT would look bad.

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05-13-2014, 10:51 AM
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People forget NB was injured pre-training camp.
He got in one the last pre-season game if i recall and played well.
It is very possible that if he had a full camp he could have forced the Habs Brass like Bournival did.

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05-13-2014, 10:52 AM
  #96
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i'm sorry. looking back on my first reply to you, i didn't like my tone. it was adversarial. i'm just sick of the MT bashing at this point. he's been doing a fine job at adapting and is nowhere near as stubborn as The Count was.



but like I said that goal was a goofy bounce and had nothing to do with Murray.

Murray is an adventure in his own end. No one's denying that. All I'm saying is that putting in Murray in Game 3 wasn't exactly an eye rolling 'how could you do that' mistake from MT. Coaches will most likely go to their vets come playoff time over rookies who've barely played 10 NHL games.

Yet MT still ended up putting in NB and it worked. But instead of 'glad MT put him in' you get 'why he didn't do it sooner?'. A lot of coaches wouldn't roll the dice on NB but MT did.

It's just smacks of scraping the barrel of MT bashing when he's been doing just fine these playoffs.
Solid post.

All we can ask from a coach is to adjust.

The Habs are not playing the same as they were in the regular season. I like this version better.

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05-13-2014, 11:03 AM
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I genuinely don't think you can understate how important Beaulieu's presence was on that third pair last night. Instead of being a brutally exploitable matchup for the Bruins, as it was with Bouillon and especially Murray, the Bruins really couldn't make any headway against it. We had three reliable defensive pairings for the first time in the series last night and it paid off in spades. That long outlet pass by NB to MaxPac -- neither Bouillon nor Murray could have made that play. Period. Yes it took a lucky bounce to still end up on Max's stick, but we would never have been in position to get that bounce had either of the anchors been on the ice in NB's place.

You can still see that NB is raw in his positioning, but he's got great speed, good vision, good passing ability, and doesn't give up on any plays. That speed mattered last night as we really outskated the B's up & down the entire lineup last night. That's what we have to do to win game 7.

Please, MT, in the name of the Richards, don't screw this up for G7!
Agreed. Everyone talks about the intangibles that Murray's physical presence brings and how it can't be measured. But ignore things like how Murray is bad for momentum. With Beaulieu out there Boston had a hard time building any kind of momentum because they couldn't string two high quality shifts together and a big reason why is that the 3rd pairing wasn't bleeding chances/shots. His transition game also meant we could keep our momentum going.

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05-13-2014, 11:04 AM
  #98
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Solid post.

All we can ask from a coach is to adjust.

The Habs are not playing the same as they were in the regular season. I like this version better.
Carey's Posts are solid..er

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05-13-2014, 11:16 AM
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yup, beaulieu even said post game soon as he got the puck he saw pacioretty BOLT up ice and he just tried to get it to him however possible, defintely a fortunate bounce helped

but theres 0 doubt in my mind, bouillon probably sees patches but never comes up with the balls to send it up ice without icing it taking too long to make a decision, and murray wouldnt of seen pacioretty take off period and probably tries to take it up himself at 9km/hour

marc, next year, PLEASE only sign weaver as a vet on D plz...beaulieu tinordi and pateryn are plenty freakin depth
Since the 2004 lockout we've seen defensemen get quicker and quicker as a premium got placed on speed and mobility. It makes sense that the natural progression of that is to start seeing younger and younger defensemen find their way into the lineup.

Teams used to value experience and grit, especially at the D position. These days, given how important skating is and how expensive veteran defensemen are, it would make sense that younger, faster, cheaper D are going to earn more roster spots than in years prior. Why not put a 21 year old on an ELC into your 6th D spot? For instance of the playoff teams left:

- Boston has done it with guys like Krug, Miller and Hamilton.

- Anaheim has Lindholm and Fowler (with the occasional Sbisa sighting).

- LA had Voynov in their lineup as a 21 year old when they won the cup (not to mention a 22 year old Doughty...who is an all world talent so he was getting in either way)

- The Wild have Brodin, Spurgeon and Scandella as regular Dmen all 23 and under.

- The Pens have Maatta in the lineup as a 19 year old, and my bet is that next year, their D gets even younger as they let a few vets go (Niskanen and Orpik possibly)

Anyways, none of that is tangible proof of anything, but it seems to me that the cap, the speed of the game, and the quality and quantity of coaching that are available to prospects at such a young age have made young defensemen more reliable and more necessary. If they prove that they belong, it makes sense both economically and from a hockey standpoint to let kids play.

Beaulieu has proven he belongs in the NHL. Tinordi and Pateryn have yet to do so, although the former seems close and the latter hasn't been given a shot. Going into the offseason (whenever that starts), MB should no longer feel obligated to sign a veteran Dman to shore up the back end because he has the tools in-house to do so.

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05-13-2014, 11:20 AM
  #100
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Lavoie said on hockeycentral he spoke to Bruins people before the game about Murray being out and said they were disappointed.

Will be interesting to see how Beaulieu plays in game 7. If he has a big game, could be a start of something special in terms of a future core D.

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