HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Miscellaneous NHL Talk XVII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-14-2014, 01:33 PM
  #801
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianRocket10 View Post
So anyway, can none of the remaining teams win the cup please? cause that would be great.
LA: I like Quick and Doughty, but I tire of seeing the same teams all the time.

Chicago: Maybe their arena will burn down and the NHL will disqualify them from the playoffs, citing some long forgotten rule that homeless teams aren't allowed to compete.

Boston: More of the same, again. And I don't even like any of their players aside from Bergeron.

Montreal: God. No. Even with Briere.

New York: Henrik is neat, but watching them flame out is neater.

Yeah, everyone losing would be best.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:33 PM
  #802
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 33,126
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


Right now there is an urgent need to correct someone's highly mistaken notion that getting Clarke and Parent is inferior to getting Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, and a 1st.
exactly. The thought that those 2 trades were the best in team history were not even close to being the top trades. They are down the list in significance.
getting Leclair who helped create one of the greatest lines in recent NHL history and getting Desjardins who was arguably the best defenseman this team has had behind Howe and Pronger is ahead of those 2 trades as well.
Probably getting Lindros even tho it gutted the team.

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:34 PM
  #803
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 31,508
vCash: 500
I want Montreal to win simply because I don't want someone that has won in the past 5 years to win again.

SolidSnakeUS is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:34 PM
  #804
CanadianFlyer88
Moderator
Knublin' PPs
 
CanadianFlyer88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Van City
Posts: 15,182
vCash: 500
If you're not cheering for Saku to win the Cup, then you have no soul.

__________________
I deride your truth handling abilities
CanadianFlyer88 is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:34 PM
  #805
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 10,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Whoa. There is no way they were just as much contenders. You need at LEAST 3 effective lines, generally 4, to contend. Right after the trades the Flyers looked like they had 2 lines and no elite two-way presence...or really any two way presence at all. You need at least 1 elite two-way presence to win a Cup.
They had four effective lines... not sure of the exact combos but something like:

Hartnell, Giroux, Jagr
JVR, Briere, Voracek
Read, Schenn, Simmonds
Rinaldo, Couturier, Talbot

What they really lacked was a Vezina candidate goalie, and a 23 minute a night true #1 defenseman. Two things most people expected them to have going into the season.

Curufinwe is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:35 PM
  #806
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 31,508
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If you're not cheering for Saku to win the Cup, then you have no soul.
Maybe the Ducks as well. If I had to go for the West, I'd go for them because they haven't won in a while. Montreal for an East team.

SolidSnakeUS is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:35 PM
  #807
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,940
vCash: 500
I wouldn't mind Briere getting a cup. It would also keep up the "next year a champ" routine for ex-Flyers.

flyershockey is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:36 PM
  #808
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
They had four effective lines... not sure of the exact combos but something like:

Hartnell, Giroux, Jagr
JVR, Briere, Voracek
Read, Schenn ,Simmonds
Rinaldo, Couturier, Talbot

What they really lacked was a Vezina candidate goalie, and a 23 minute a night true #1 defenseman.
Until the preseason we did not know Couturier would be what he is.

We had the top 2 lines as something that could be expected to perform...the Schenn line which lacked two way presence aside from Read (and the fact that, at the time of the trades, Read was an unknown as was Schenn) and a 4th line of Talbot and filler. At the time of the trades, we didn't have a Cup contending roster. There just wasn't enough defensive presence in the forward group.

And that forward group showed they weren't true contenders when New Jersey manhandled them completely. They haven't shown much since to reverse that notion, either.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:38 PM
  #809
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,502
vCash: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by OgbertTheNerd View Post
That was pretty cool. I've always wondered what they say to each other besides "good series".

Did he say to Haula, "you're fast."?
Yea thats what I heard, "you're fast, bro(?)".

Is it me or does Kane and Parise call each other Darryl?!?

Seems like he blows off Cooke with a half hearted "yeaaa", but not sure what Cooke said before it.

And a nice compliment to Spurgeon.

healthyscratch is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:39 PM
  #810
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 10,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Until the preseason we did not know Couturier would be what he is.

We had the top 2 lines as something that could be expected to perform...the Schenn line which lacked two way presence aside from Read (and the fact that, at the time of the trades, Read was an unknown as was Schenn) and a 4th line of Talbot and filler. At the time of the trades, we didn't have a Cup contending roster. There just wasn't enough defensive presence in the forward group.

And that forward group showed they weren't true contenders when New Jersey manhandled them completely. They haven't shown much since to reverse that notion, either.
By the time the season got underway in October the Flyers looked like a Cup contender, and remained that way all the way until April.

Weak defensive forwards can be overcome by having great defensemen and goaltending. Richards and Carter's defense sure didn't help much against Boston in 2011 when they were manhandled. Carter was barely a factor in any of the five playoff seasons he played here.

Curufinwe is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:42 PM
  #811
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If you're not cheering for Saku to win the Cup, then you have no soul.



Anaheim should have their Cup win revoked and should be permanently banned from the playoffs for that. Their opening game ceremony should be everyone in the organization begging forgiveness for...that. For at least a century.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:42 PM
  #812
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If you're not cheering for Saku to win the Cup, then you have no soul.
I honestly forget the guy is still playing at times but Anaheim is probably the only team left that I don't have any negative feelings towards. I don't mind Chicago but I want to see someone else win.

LegionOfDoom91 is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:44 PM
  #813
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Weak defensive forwards can be overcome by having great defensemen and goaltending.

Richards and Carter's defense sure didn't help much against Boston in 2011. Carter barely a factor in any of the five playoff seasons he played here.
Wow, it's almost like inexperience, and then injuries, affect a player's postseason performance!

Can you name one team with a forward group that's weak defensively winning a Cup lately? I can't. Every Cup winner in the Cap era has had a player who won or was a finalist for a Selke, at minimum. That's not a coincidence.

Edit: No, there's no way the Flyers "looked" like a Cup contender in October. Nobody had them picked to go to the Finals. There's a reason for that. This is some heavy revisionist history here. There were serious doubts about the forwards' ability to not stay trapped in their own end going into the season, that was the expectation...not Cup.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:46 PM
  #814
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 12,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's light years above whatever the hell you just wrote about the Richards and Carter trades easily being better moves than getting Clarke and Parent. There are honestly no words for that.

That's worse than wanting to trade Lecavalier for Leino. By a lot.

Edit: LOL, and trying to discredit Clarke's acquisiton as something related to luck? Alright. We can just cross Couturier's acquisition off thanks to luck as well.



No, it took the team out of playoff contention. We lacked the two-way ability that is required to win a Cup. And remember, at the time of the trades, we didn't have Couturier. That's a separate move that comes at the draft. At the time we looked to be a two line team with only one line able to play at both ends.

Those trades when they went down slammed the window shut, and it hasn't reopened yet. Yes, that's aggravated by the Bryz debacle and losing Pronger, but it doesn't change the fact that we stopped being serious SC challengers on that June day. There's a reason most people immediately began looking 4-5+ years down the road (and immediately wondering what the hell we were going to do on D at that/this point) instead of hoping for another Finals run.

Anybody who thought/thinks the team was as much of, or more of, a contender in 2011 right after those trades was delusional, and hindsight hasn't proven them correct.
Beef I asked you to do 2 things. 1. not get your panties in a bunch and 2. look at my post not at surface value and instead apply a higher level of thinking.

So i will proceed once again to break this down for you. 1. Easy decisions are easier to make than harder decisions. 1. drafting clarke , and aquiring parent were easy decisions. 2. Trading richards and carter were hard decisions.

Two way play is important and of the two players we traded only carter is a two way player anymore. At the time of the trade we thought giroux and schenn would be our two way players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I mean, it's impossible to not support the trades. Imagine the roster without them. We would have been throwing crap AHL players out there to patch holes with no young talent at all coming into the roster The future was looking bleak.

But that doesn't mean we have to be unrealistic about the team's situation afterwards or run a smear campaign against the players shipped out.

That's just how I see it.
No one is being unrealistic about the teams situation other than you. You live in a world where richards and carter are good enough to carry us to a stanley cup , and that just isnt the case. No one is badmouthing those two either. Carter has always been a great two way player and I feel like he is finally getting his due to the olympics and stanley cup. was a great player one of the very best but he has fallen off more than any player in recent memory . He and heatly are in the same boat .

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
a concussion is a convenient excuse for poor play. now I have heard everything.
why did they have to trade Gagne? why couldn't they trade Hartnell? or someone else? they had to trade one of the classiest and better 2 way players this organization has had in a long time. that was a stupid trade and the way he was treated on the way out was disgraceful. I don't care if some thought he was done. it was a terrible trade and who did they bring in to replace him? a lazy sack of **** in Zherdev. nevermind the fact they took back a broken #6 defenseman back for Gagne.

Since the 2 trades the Flyers have not come close to winning anything. cool they smoked the Penguins that year. They have won 2 series since those 2 trades. Not sure how they were close to anything.

Tons of players gets concussions. All seam to come back strong and make contributions. Look at crosby , dude missed a ton of time and he comes back and wins the hart trophy in his first full season back. Richards misses 2 weeks and all of a sudden he can't skate fast and is out of breath after a 30 second shift? Dude is out of shape and a concussion has nothing to do with that.

Trading hartnell instead of gagne? are u kidding. Gagne was done after 2010 and homer was the only one to realize it. Gagne on that team means no mez and mez had a much bigger impact than gagne that season.

Since the trades the flyers have not come close to winning a championship i agree with you there but we are a hell of a lot closer than if we were saddled with those two contracts and a mike richards who can't play more than 9 min

Jtown is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:48 PM
  #815
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post


Anaheim should have their Cup win revoked and should be permanently banned from the playoffs for that. Their opening game ceremony should be everyone in the organization begging forgiveness for...that. For at least a century.
Still not as bad as Ottawa's spartan intro from a couple of years ago. That one makes me uncomfortable.

flyershockey is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:48 PM
  #816
Striiker
Orange and Black
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,783
vCash: 500

Striiker is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:48 PM
  #817
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 12,685
vCash: 500
I fail to see how drafting Clarke was an easy decision. He was an 18 year old diabetic (with loads of talent.) How do you predict how a guy with diabetes reacts to a strenuous NHL schedule in the 1970s?

JDinkalage Morgoone is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:49 PM
  #818
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 33,126
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post

Weak defensive forwards can be overcome by having great defensemen and goaltending. .
that might win you one round. after that? not a chance. Eventually your weak defensive forwards are going to get exposed. Like what NJ did to the Flyers.

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:49 PM
  #819
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 10,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Wow, it's almost like inexperience, and then injuries, affect a player's postseason performance!

Can you name one team with a forward group that's weak defensively winning a Cup lately? I can't. Every Cup winner in the Cap era has had a player who won or was a finalist for a Selke, at minimum. That's not a coincidence.

Edit: No, there's no way the Flyers "looked" like a Cup contender in October. Nobody had them picked to go to the Finals. There's a reason for that. This is some heavy revisionist history here. There were serious doubts about the forwards' ability to not stay trapped in their own end going into the season, that was the expectation...not Cup.

The 2009 Penguins didn't. We did and they still crushed us.

You keep talking about issues with the forwards getting stuck in their own zone like that didn't happen with Richards and Carter when Boston pulverized us the previous season. Christ it even happened against that crappy Buffalo team. The common issue was Laviolette's coaching, and Pronger being injured.

Curufinwe is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:49 PM
  #820
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 13,811
vCash: 500
i just want the Habs to flame out tonite, then im done with hockey for this year..

after montreal is gone golfing i really dont give 2 ***** who wins..

would have been nice for Minny to advance but that didnt happen.

(ps i logged into that game just as Bryz got beat by Kane)... lol dat timing...

Flyerfan4life is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:53 PM
  #821
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Jtown, the difficulty level of the decision has no bearing on the quality of the moves. Bernie Parent wasn't a known superstar. Clarke was seen as a huge risk. They weren't "no-brainers." And just because they were "easy" (they weren't, one was a historic gamble) doesn't mean they weren't the best moves in franchise history, because they are. By a lot. It's really not close.

If you want to go by difficulty, then the Lindros trade alone is better than Carter and Richards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
The 2009 Penguins didn't.

We did and they still crushed us.
The 2009 Penguins had Staal. That Selke candidate/winner I mentioned that is a pre-req for contention.

Edit: This is a drum I've been beating for years now. Every Cup winner has had a player who wins, or is a Finalist for the Selke in what appears to be a 2-3 year window within that run. Without that talent on the roster nobody has won in almost a decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
The 2009 Penguins didn't. We did and they still crushed us.

You keep talking about issues with the forwards getting stuck in their own zone like that didn't happen with Richards and Carter when Boston pulverized us the previous season. Christ it even happened against that crappy Buffalo team. The common issue was Laviolette's coaching, and Pronger being injured.
And Carter being injured. And Richards being injured. And Leino being injured.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:55 PM
  #822
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,412
vCash: 500
Didn't Coburn get a puck to the face in Game 1 or 2 in that series?

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:55 PM
  #823
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 10,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The 2009 Penguins had Staal. That Selke candidate/winner I mentioned that is a pre-req for contention
He wasn't a Selke candidate till a year after they won the Cup.

Curufinwe is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 01:57 PM
  #824
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 33,126
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Tons of players gets concussions. All seam to come back strong and make contributions. Look at crosby , dude missed a ton of time and he comes back and wins the hart trophy in his first full season back. Richards misses 2 weeks and all of a sudden he can't skate fast and is out of breath after a 30 second shift? Dude is out of shape and a concussion has nothing to do with that.

Trading hartnell instead of gagne? are u kidding. Gagne was done after 2010 and homer was the only one to realize it. Gagne on that team means no mez and mez had a much bigger impact than gagne that season.

Since the trades the flyers have not come close to winning a championship i agree with you there but we are a hell of a lot closer than if we were saddled with those two contracts and a mike richards who can't play more than 9 min
how long was Crosby out? a ton longer then Richards was(if you are referring to the Steckel hit). I guess you have never had a concussion before have you? it totally ****s you up both mentally and physically.
Yeah fine Gagne was done. whatever. still doesn't make it right they treated him like garbage. Trading for Mez was necessary because they had nothing in the system to put into the top 6 but that is another argument.
The jury is out on whether they are closer or not. No denying they are set up for the future well or at the very least are heading in the right direction in that regard.

GoneFullHextall is offline  
Old
05-14-2014, 02:00 PM
  #825
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
He wasn't a Selke candidate till a year after they won the Cup.
Sorry. I've been banging this drum for years so I figured you had seen it already:


Every Cup winner has an elite two-way player. They either win, or are nominated for the Selke within 2-3 years before or after the Cup. Either way, the talent and ability are there. The Pens had it.

Remember, the Selke has a strong reputation factor so there is a bit of lag.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:29 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.