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Hockey's Future Top 50 prospects Spring 2007: 11-25

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Old
03-16-2007, 08:19 PM
  #226
PuckheadMcGillycuddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A. Rainer View Post

The team writers for this site are in constant contact with scouts and organizations. I for one am in constant contact with three scouts of the team I cover. They're feedback is definitely important.

"They're feedback..."?!?

Good to know that people at HF have basic grammar down.

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03-16-2007, 09:59 PM
  #227
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For those asking for a comparison of the top prospect lists, I'd also like to point out that HF's list typically comes out AFTER THN's list is made public.

Any comparisons made between the two lists in past years would therefore favor HF, as they would have the advantage in seeing THN's list first.

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03-16-2007, 10:05 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by hsthashersfan View Post
"They're feedback..."?!?

Good to know that people at HF have basic grammar down.
Wow.

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Old
03-17-2007, 01:01 AM
  #229
Kevin Forbes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsthashersfan View Post
"They're feedback..."?!?

Good to know that people at HF have basic grammar down.
Out of everything that Dave said, you picked out a common grammar error? Amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veronesepk View Post
For those asking for a comparison of the top prospect lists, I'd also like to point out that HF's list typically comes out AFTER THN's list is made public.

Any comparisons made between the two lists in past years would therefore favor HF, as they would have the advantage in seeing THN's list first.
Personally, I haven't seen THN's list. I explained a number of my reasons in the thread about that, but in short I let my subscription expire because I grew tired of the magazine and preferred my own methods of finding hockey news. That said, I think it is short-sighted to call the HF list just a knock-off of the THN list. It's not like Dave bought a copy (edit by Dave - I have never bought a copy and haven't seen one is going on 3 years now), crossed out the names he didn't agree with and posted it on the website. Did the committee use the THN list as part of their work? Probably not, in my experience with HF's committees, the way we operate promotes coming to our own conclusions independently. That said, even changing a THN list would be presenting a unique list representing the opinion of the staff at HF. Journalists don't operate in a bubble and avoid everything done in the past (previously, we've always used last year's list, both in the Top 50 and the Org Rankings, as the basis for the next year, this year was a bit different as added attention was made to ensuring this list went along with both the team Top 20s and the individual league Top 20s, but in any case we're definitely not starting from scratch each time). If you're accusing us of plagarism, I would be vehemently opposed to that charge.

That said, THN's list (from what I know of it) doesn't include the WJCs or anything that occured after the turn of the calendar due to the need to collaborate information from those giving feedback and the myriad of printing/publishing and simple magazine design deadlines and so on. (I might be wrong here on the actually timing, but I assure you their production of their list stopped long before it was presented to the public) With HF, our communication methods and publication challenges are different, so our list would be more timely.

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Old
03-17-2007, 08:44 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
I don't believe they wil put Malkin and Kopitar on (I know they're technically still prospects) but a staff member hinted that clearly established nhlers will be left off.
That would be a change from previous rankings when Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry (among other players in the past) both made the Ducks list (en route to the Ducks being ranked #1) and the top prospects list even though they were playing 2nd line minutes for the Ducks (and the basis for them being on the list was that they had yet to play 65 games, even though everyone knew they weren't prospects anymore).

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Originally Posted by stazza18 View Post
Pretty sure the cut off was 65 games or NHL regular this season. So I think Malkin and Kessel are out not sure how much Kopitar or O Sullivan has played.
Kopitar is at 63 games (2 short of the cutoff), Patty O is at 33

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Old
03-17-2007, 09:13 AM
  #231
Kevin Forbes
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
That would be a change from previous rankings when Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry (among other players in the past) both made the Ducks list (en route to the Ducks being ranked #1) and the top prospects list even though they were playing 2nd line minutes for the Ducks (and the basis for them being on the list was that they had yet to play 65 games, even though everyone knew they weren't prospects anymore).
Third line minutes, but I understand where you are coming from. Getzlaf and Perry wouldn't have been included if they didn't spend December in the minors. I lobbied hard to get some sort of exception to get them off the list, but at the time they were 15 or so games from the deadline. Getzlaf and Perry didn't even graduate until early this season, which, in my opinion, has skewed the Ducks ranking over the past two years.

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Old
03-17-2007, 09:45 AM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
Out of everything that Dave said, you picked out a common grammar error? Amazing.



Personally, I haven't seen THN's list. I explained a number of my reasons in the thread about that, but in short I let my subscription expire because I grew tired of the magazine and preferred my own methods of finding hockey news. That said, I think it is short-sighted to call the HF list just a knock-off of the THN list. It's not like Dave bought a copy (edit by Dave - I have never bought a copy and haven't seen one is going on 3 years now), crossed out the names he didn't agree with and posted it on the website. Did the committee use the THN list as part of their work? Probably not, in my experience with HF's committees, the way we operate promotes coming to our own conclusions independently. That said, even changing a THN list would be presenting a unique list representing the opinion of the staff at HF. Journalists don't operate in a bubble and avoid everything done in the past (previously, we've always used last year's list, both in the Top 50 and the Org Rankings, as the basis for the next year, this year was a bit different as added attention was made to ensuring this list went along with both the team Top 20s and the individual league Top 20s, but in any case we're definitely not starting from scratch each time). If you're accusing us of plagarism, I would be vehemently opposed to that charge.

That said, THN's list (from what I know of it) doesn't include the WJCs or anything that occured after the turn of the calendar due to the need to collaborate information from those giving feedback and the myriad of printing/publishing and simple magazine design deadlines and so on. (I might be wrong here on the actually timing, but I assure you their production of their list stopped long before it was presented to the public) With HF, our communication methods and publication challenges are different, so our list would be more timely.
I get THN and HF's list is pretty well done imo.

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03-17-2007, 09:47 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by hsthashersfan View Post
"They're feedback..."?!?

Good to know that people at HF have basic grammar down.

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Old
03-17-2007, 11:34 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
the thing is that alot of teams have prospects like this.
Really? actually i don't see so many 20yrs olds scoring 27 goals in the RSL.

Quote:
By this logic I could be complaining that Dubinsky isn't on the list, a rangers prospect who also has a shot to be a good second line player.
Well, honestly Dubinsky is not half the scorer Kulemin is.. with "a good shot to become a second liner at the NHL level" i meant actually a very good shot.. that's what i would project if i had to make a guess now, with outside chances to become something even more than that, and i don't think the risks of a Russian player staying in his motherland should be factored in such list. If that's the case, please someone from HF staff inform us about that..
Quote:
But should a prospect with a reasonable shot at being a second line on this list? If they where included then the list would have to be 100 to 150 players long, there are so many guys who could be second liners.
Kulemin belongs more to the 'should be' than to the 'could be' category though.. and more importantly, you're delusional if you think all players inserted in the top 50 are expected to become first line players..

let's take a look at Picard's description, listed at #31:
Quote:
Picard could be an extremely talented forward on the left side of a third line or possibly, with some improvement in his offensive game, be a top-six forward.
i think this quote alone could close the argument.. but i might add there are other guys like Skille, Tambellini, Voloshenko that don't project exactly as first liners at the NHL level..

Quote:
What your going to find on this list are guys with genuine first line/first pairing/starting goalie talent, or guys who project very safely to second line/second pairing players.
False, judging from what HF wrote.


Last edited by helicecopter: 03-17-2007 at 01:57 PM.
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Old
03-17-2007, 01:35 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veronesepk View Post
For those asking for a comparison of the top prospect lists, I'd also like to point out that HF's list typically comes out AFTER THN's list is made public.

Any comparisons made between the two lists in past years would therefore favor HF, as they would have the advantage in seeing THN's list first.
So what? I don't think the HF team writers hunker down in front of their mail boxes, waiting for THN's list to come out. I would hope that HF's team writers are knowledgeable enough about the game that they can independently compose their own lists, rather than edit the lists of an outside source.

With a cutoff of 65 GP, I'd hope that HF would wait until later in the season before releasing their list, or else you'd still have a lot of players on this list who shouldn't be there.

And even though I don't agree with it, at least HF has a firm cut-off. While I love Future Watch, THN does not, and their definitions are vague.

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Old
03-17-2007, 01:37 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by hsthashersfan View Post
"They're feedback..."?!?

Good to know that people at HF have basic grammar down.
Do you actually have anything constructive or intelligent to contribute to this conversation? Or do you feel the need to zero in on the mistakes of others to make yourself feel better?

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Old
03-17-2007, 02:05 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
the thing is that alot of teams have prospects like this. By this logic I could be complaining that Dubinsky isn't on the list, a rangers prospect who also has a shot to be a good second line player. But should a prospect with a reasonable shot at being a second line on this list? If they where included then the list would have to be 100 to 150 players long, there are so many guys who could be second liners.

What your going to find on this list are guys with genuine first line/first pairing/starting goalie talent, or guys who project very safely to second line/second pairing players.
Go back 7 or 8 years and you will find guys on top prospect lists then that aren't in the league any longer, so much for safety.

What Kulemin is doing in the RSL is extraordinary and should be recognized for it. Actually, there is a HF article in here listing him as the best prospect in Russia but he can't make the top 50?

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Old
03-17-2007, 04:00 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
but at the time they were 15 or so games from the deadline
Just building upon what Forbesy said...

That is part of the difference. Perry and Getzlaf were still many games away from graduation and not due to an injury or something like that. The only reason why Kopitar has not graduated is because of some freak injury with 2 games left to go.

So, had that injury not occurred, he wouldn't even be on this list to begin with, so what's the difference. Dropping Kopitar was at my behest for the betterment of the project.

If it helps any, before Malkin graduated and Kopitar was dropped, they were no. 1 and no. 2 on the list.

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03-17-2007, 04:21 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by helicecopter View Post
Really? actually i don't see so many 20yrs olds scoring 27 goals in the RSL.

Well, honestly Dubinsky is not half the scorer Kulemin is.. with "a good shot to become a second liner at the NHL level" i meant actually a very good shot.. that's what i would project if i had to make a guess now, with outside chances to become something even more than that, and i don't think the risks of a Russian player staying in his motherland should be factored in such list. If that's the case, please someone from HF staff inform us about that..
Kulemin belongs more to the 'should be' than to the 'could be' category though.. and more importantly, you're delusional if you think all players inserted in the top 50 are expected to become first line players..
well then you should have said that. Understand that I know NOTHING about Kulemin, I was mearly reacting to your assertion that he had 'a good shot at being a second liner.' Now if there is more too him than that then he should probably be on the list, I don't know, I havn't seen him play,

My point is that there are so many players that could be second liners, if we start to include them all we'll end up with alot more than 50 players. I really don't have anything to say on the particular case of Kulemin.

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03-17-2007, 04:39 PM
  #240
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The thing that I can see why Kulemin isn't in the top 50 (although he deserves 45-50 or HM imo) is that he had been fairly unimpressive (probably still would of got drafted in 06) until last years WJC and has only really put up one good season in Russia (06-07 season). Also scouts seen enough of him to let him go undrafted in 04 and 05 and was drafted a 20 year old. Maybe he is finally coming into his own but 1 good year does not make him a guranteed top 50 prospect. Scouts saw something in his game to let him go for 2 years maybe this is the real Kulemin performing this year or maybe this is the exception.

Halak is absentee who gets me because he has arguably been the best goalie since 03 who is still considered a prospect and unless he is in the top 10 overall than that really doesnt make sense. I guess will have to wait and see but will be interested to see how HF writers justify not including him in the list after the performances he has put up the last few years.

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03-17-2007, 05:24 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by KadoCH View Post
The thing that I can see why Kulemin isn't in the top 50 (although he deserves 45-50 or HM imo) is that he had been fairly unimpressive (probably still would of got drafted in 06) until last years WJC and has only really put up one good season in Russia (06-07 season). Also scouts seen enough of him to let him go undrafted in 04 and 05 and was drafted a 20 year old. Maybe he is finally coming into his own but 1 good year does not make him a guranteed top 50 prospect. .
Well, last year wasn't bad either.. he registered 13 points in 31 regular season games and 6 in 11 playoff games. More importantly, as a 19yrs old he was able to secure a regular spot on a stacked team like Magnitogorsk was last season. Btw, even if at the WJC he was labeled by McGuire as Malkin's linemate, he actually played together with Evgeny only a part of his games.

Quote:
Scouts saw something in his game to let him go for 2 years..
Fact is, as far as i know Kulemin sorta came out of nowhere in 05/06 so i'm not sure whether he was not liked or not much known before the 2006 draft.

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03-17-2007, 06:41 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by helicecopter View Post
Fact is, as far as i know Kulemin sorta came out of nowhere in 05/06 so i'm not sure whether he was not liked or not much known before the 2006 draft.
It's not like he came out of no where he played for Metallurg-2 Magnitogorsk team in the Russian 3rd division I believe in 04/05 and put up some half decent numbers and played in the ADT challenge in 04 (his draft year) but did not make himself draft worthy apparently so he was around just never made a name for him self until the 06 WJC and this season. Again he is a good prospect and encouraging numbers this season but to say he is top 50 guranteed for one good season is a stretch. He may be deserving of a spot though around 45-50 because of the type of season he is having is in the RSL but it is still one season.

He didn't enter the draft in 04 apparently but I do believe he did in 05 and was overlooked so will see the jury is out but he does have the potential to be an exciting player.

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03-18-2007, 07:40 AM
  #243
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Again he is a good prospect and encouraging numbers this season but to say he is top 50 guranteed for one good season is a stretch. He may be deserving of a spot though around 45-50 because of the type of season he is having is in the RSL but it is still one season.
Again, we are not talking about only ONE good season.. don't know why you ignore that (i explained that in the previous post you quoted).. he had a good season as a 19yrs old already, followed by a very good season this year.. that makes for *2* good seasons in a row i would say, out of two pro seasons played.

anyway, i'm not here maintaing he should necessarily be high in this list.. i'm just saying that he really deserved to be somewhere in the top 50.

and i'm still wondering why he wasn't.. no one from HF staff has answered about my question on Euro-based prospects yet (Kulemin, Varlamov and Lindgren in particular.)

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