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Old
03-18-2007, 12:43 PM
  #26
NYR469
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The fear is if the Rangers sit on one of the goalies too long,they will lose value.Just like what happened with VBK and the future United States congressman from CT
VBK lost value because the expansion draft came along and they were only allowed to protect one goalie, but unless another expansion is coming in the next 2-3 years that is a non-issue.

montoya's value will go up once he starts playing in the nhl and showing he can get the job done at that level...the question though is how high do you realistically expect his value to get based on what other goalies have return. if for example we could get horton over the summer for him, i'd argue that no matter how well he plays you aren't going to get a better return than that a year from now so best to pull the trigger now.

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03-18-2007, 12:53 PM
  #27
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Well, a lot of people think that there will be a couple more teams added in the next 5 years (Las Vegas, Kansas City as possibilities) so there might be an expansion coming...but as long as it doesn't happen in the next 2 or 3 seasons we should be ok. That should be enough time to figure out our goaltending situation.

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Old
03-18-2007, 01:11 PM
  #28
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Montoya is the player who will be leaving. As many have pointed out, it is not even a question at this point. Lundqvist is one of the top goaltenders in the league and he has a decade of greatness in front of him. As for when Al goes, I'm not so sure it's later rather than sooner. The two most logical places for him to go are Florida and Chicago. Both of these teams have the type of young assets that the Rangers would want in trade at the same relatively undeveloped level. This is the type of trade that would take place in the offseason and I think it could happen this summer. It could also happen a year from now after Montoya puts in a season and backup to The King.

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03-18-2007, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mikesect424 View Post
Not saying we should move Al, but no one wants to see him get hurt, and lose all value. Murphy's Law was conceived by a rangers fan.
the way murphy's law always seems to be against us, i think murphy himself WAS a ranger

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03-18-2007, 01:29 PM
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Montoya is the player who will be leaving. As many have pointed out, it is not even a question at this point. Lundqvist is one of the top goaltenders in the league and he has a decade of greatness in front of him. As for when Al goes, I'm not so sure it's later rather than sooner. The two most logical places for him to go are Florida and Chicago. Both of these teams have the type of young assets that the Rangers would want in trade at the same relatively undeveloped level. This is the type of trade that would take place in the offseason and I think it could happen this summer. It could also happen a year from now after Montoya puts in a season and backup to The King.
and besides these good points, why did we put that much time into weekes? yes he showed he can be a good backup, but if i remember right, did he ever even have a winning season in the nhl? i dont think so. dont sign him, and bring up monty

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03-18-2007, 01:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Montoya is the player who will be leaving. As many have pointed out, it is not even a question at this point. Lundqvist is one of the top goaltenders in the league and he has a decade of greatness in front of him. As for when Al goes, I'm not so sure it's later rather than sooner. The two most logical places for him to go are Florida and Chicago. Both of these teams have the type of young assets that the Rangers would want in trade at the same relatively undeveloped level. This is the type of trade that would take place in the offseason and I think it could happen this summer. It could also happen a year from now after Montoya puts in a season and backup to The King.
How are we so sure about this?

What if Al comes up next year and performs well? What if two years from now he's pushing Henrik for the job? I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's a possibility, and we should give Al the chance.

This idea that future between the pipes is set in stone is just silly. Al has matched everything that Henrik did at the same age, and he's probably more physically gifted. He may never make the next step the way that Ludqvist did, but just assuming that he won't without giving him the time do so would be foolish.


As for next year, If Montoya wins the backup job in camp, and right now I don't see anyone chalenging him, then he should be given the opertunity to start 25 to 30 games next year. I think most of us agree that Henrik plays more games than he should, so, assuming Monty plays well enough to earn them, I see no reason not to let him spell Henrik every couple of games. The real question will arise two years from now: if Montoya plays well in his limited time next year, does he really start to eat into Henrik's starts in 08-09? That's when decisions will have to be made, two years from now, not this offseason.


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03-18-2007, 01:46 PM
  #32
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First of all, the chances that Montoya can just come up and do close to what Henrik is doing is a lot to ask.

Secondly, even if he does come up and play well, does that mean we can just decide to go with him and trade Lundqvist? If he comes up and Lundqvist has a bad stretch, does that mean we go in a different direction from Lundqvist?

The last thing that you want to happen is to get the team or fans divided... I'd prefer they let Montoya come up, maybe play for a bit but then move him.

This isnt a video game where you just wait to see who's better. There are other aspects of this that are very dangerous to play with imo. It couldnt be good for Lundqvist to have to deal with someone else playing games when he's already shown us what he has.

lets be honest too... We've all seen what Henrik can do. How much better do we really want someone to be?

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03-18-2007, 01:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NYROrtsFan View Post
First of all, the chances that Montoya can just come up and do close to what Henrik is doing is a lot to ask.

Secondly, even if he does come up and play well, does that mean we can just decide to go with him and trade Lundqvist? If he comes up and Lundqvist has a bad stretch, does that mean we go in a different direction from Lundqvist?

The last thing that you want to happen is to get the team or fans divided... I'd prefer they let Montoya come up, maybe play for a bit but then move him.

This isnt a video game where you just wait to see who's better. There are other aspects of this that are very dangerous to play with imo. It couldnt be good for Lundqvist to have to deal with someone else playing games when he's already shown us what he has.

lets be honest too... We've all seen what Henrik can do. How much better do we really want someone to be?
1. No ones asking Montoya to come up and be Henrik, Henrik wouldn't havn't been Henrik if he had started his NHL career at 22. That's why you ease him in slowly over two years.

2. No, this is why you wait and let them both play at the NHL for a year or two. There is no rush! After a few years the brass will have a pretty good understanding of who they prefer.

3. Who the hell cares if the fans are divided? The Brass has never given much creedance to what the fans think, I doubt they will in this case, and the would be right not too.

4. We're not talking about handing Montoya the keys to the castle, we're talking 25 to 30 games. If Henrik can't defend his position against a rookie 3 years his junior starting half the games that he is, then his problem isn't Montoya. The guys a pro and a grown man, we don't have to baby him.

5. Beezer was a Vezina winner when Richter emerged on the scene, would you have prefered the rangers had moved Richter before seeing what he had because 'how much better do we want someone to be?'

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03-18-2007, 01:55 PM
  #34
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In 1986, a 22-year-old John Vanbiesbrouck had won the Vezina for the Rangers, while a 19-year-old Mike Richter played in the NCAA. I'm sure if you polled Rangers fans then, no one could imagine anyone supplanting Vanbiesbrouck for a long, long time, but we all know what happened after that.

I'm not saying that Montoya is better than Lundqvist. But if you're saying that Montoya cannot possibly be better than Lundqvist or that it would be damaging to the team to give Montoya the chance to prove he's better, then you just haven't been paying attention to recent Rangers history.

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03-18-2007, 02:10 PM
  #35
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As much as some of you want Montoya to play for us, it's not going to happen. Lundqvist is the most valuable player on this team right now and he's going nowhere fast. I also can't see him losing his confidence anytime soon too. This guy is a competitor and I think he IS this teams future. Sure, give Montoya the backup duties, but in all honesty I don't think he will ever eclipse Lundqvist. Just my opinion

By the way, I think Rangers history means squat right now. The Richter thing was probably just a coincidence. And even so, I see Lundqvist surpassing his achievements before his career ends anyhow. I know that's a pretty bold statement, but I stand behind it

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03-18-2007, 02:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
As much as some of you want Montoya to play for us, it's not going to happen. Lundqvist is the most valuable player on this team right now and he's going nowhere fast. I also can't see him losing his confidence anytime soon too. This guy is a competitor and I think he IS this teams future. Sure, give Montoya the backup duties, but in all honesty I don't think he will ever eclipse Lundqvist. Just my opinion

By the way, I think Rangers history means squat right now. The Richter thing was probably just a coincidence. And even so, I see Lundqvist surpassing his achievements before his career ends anyhow. I know that's a pretty bold statement, but I stand behind it
It's not a matter of 'wanting' either Montoya or Lundqvist to win out. I could care less who wins, only that the best goalie is here for the long haul. Assuming that 'there's no way' that it could be Montoyya is a bit shortsighted. Why can't it be? As I said, he's matched Lundqvist at every stage of his career. That doesn't meen he'll be as good as Henrik at the NHL level, but it's a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out.

Right now there just isn't much to be gained by not giving Montoya the chance. Yes, you chould move him, but if you move him now your either doing so for a substandard return, or you are going to have to include more asstes along with Montoya to get the return you want. Let him come up and prove himself, give him the chance to puch Lundqvist. If Henrik is as good as we think he is then he'll be able to keep his spot, if he's not...well then we'll all be very glad that we have Montoya.

Right now the smart money is on Lundqvist being between the pipes for the next 10 years. But there is very little to lose by giving Al a chance, but there is alot to be squandered by moving him now for no reason.

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03-18-2007, 02:28 PM
  #37
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By the way, I think Rangers history means squat right now. The Richter thing was probably just a coincidence. And even so, I see Lundqvist surpassing his achievements before his career ends anyhow. I know that's a pretty bold statement, but I stand behind it
Well just last night Henrik did something that Richter never did...he won 30 games in 2 consecutive seasons. He's now half way towards Giacomin's 4 consecutive 30 win seasons which is the franchise record. Henrik's still got a lot of work to do before we start talking about #30 hanging in the rafters...but it is certainly possible.

As for Montoya, it is possible he is as good or better then Henrik. Let's give him some time to see how good he can be. At the very least, if he's even close his stock will rise and we can get good value for him in a year or two.

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03-18-2007, 02:35 PM
  #38
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if for example we could get horton over the summer for him, i'd argue that no matter how well he plays you aren't going to get a better return than that a year from now so best to pull the trigger now.
If you can get Horton for him then I agree, pull the trigger. But as of right now there is no evidence that such an offer is out there. If the rumor that Florida rejected Montoya and Prucha for Horton then it just lends support to the notion that Montoya does not have much value right now. If Montoya + Prucha couldn't get Horton, then what do we really expect to get for Al right now?

Maybe you're right and he never has that much value because he's a goalie. In that case you better give him a fair shot because the only way you're going to get your moneys worth out of him is if he's playing for you.

As I keep saying, there isn't much to lose by letting Montoya develop and chalenge Henrik. It's not as if there are teams breaking down the doors with offers of they're top prospects in exchance for the guy. So you might as well let him play. His value can only improve, and even if it never gets that high, atleast you'll know, when all is said and done, that you picked the best goalie.

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03-18-2007, 02:39 PM
  #39
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1. No ones asking Montoya to come up and be Henrik, Henrik wouldn't havn't been Henrik if he had started his NHL career at 22. That's why you ease him in slowly over two years.

2. No, this is why you wait and let them both play at the NHL for a year or two. There is no rush! After a few years the brass will have a pretty good understanding of who they prefer.

3. Who the hell cares if the fans are divided? The Brass has never given much creedance to what the fans think, I doubt they will in this case, and the would be right not too.

4. We're not talking about handing Montoya the keys to the castle, we're talking 25 to 30 games. If Henrik can't defend his position against a rookie 3 years his junior starting half the games that he is, then his problem isn't Montoya. The guys a pro and a grown man, we don't have to baby him.

5. Beezer was a Vezina winner when Richter emerged on the scene, would you have prefered the rangers had moved Richter before seeing what he had because 'how much better do we want someone to be?'

I'm not saying rush him, or even bring him up soon so I don't understand the inclusion of those comments... I'm completely on board with letting Montoya finish it out in the AHL this year. There will eventually be a point though where he's not going to be thrilled with playing for the Pack. And one thing that can hurt the value of a player is the player suggesting he wants off of a team.

The other option is bringing him up eventually for the back up spot. So assuming that for a moment, and considering what Henrik has shown in basically being able to play every night, do we start forcing Montoya into games?


Bottom line for me is that Montoya is likely never going to get into the amount of games that we'll have to see for the team to make a legitimate decision on him. And if he does, then Henrik will legitimately be pissed off.

Fans divided sounds stupid, yes, but also results in the media writing about it. They write about it enough and it eventually filters to the players and to the management. Just causes distraction... Shouldnt happen, but it just does in all sports.


And I see no reason to give anyone else 30 games when we see that Henrik can easily start 65 and play extremely well.

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03-18-2007, 02:43 PM
  #40
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Have we seen that Henrik can play 65 very well? He's only at 60 now and I think most of us, incuding the coach (whose gone on record saying that he'd like to give Henrik more rest) would like to see Ludqvist playing fewer games. 25 to 30 games isn't that much, it still lets Henrik start 50 to 55 and keeps him fresh for the post season (assuming we actually make it there sometime in the near future.)

Give is probably the wrong word. If Montoya earns 30 games then I see no reason not to let him play 30 games. 25 to 30 games is what I wanted out of weekes this year, strictly for the sake of preserving Henrik.

What media? This isn't A-Rod and the yankees. We've got two principle beat writers in town that cover this team, the usual New York media firestorm doesn't really apply to hockey.


Last edited by xander: 03-18-2007 at 02:55 PM.
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Old
03-18-2007, 03:09 PM
  #41
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Speaking of splitting games...does anyone know if Renney is going to give Valiquette another start during either of the 2 remaining back to back games? We've got Boston/Isles next Saturday/Sunday and Philly/Toronto the following Saturday/Sunday.

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03-18-2007, 03:15 PM
  #42
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VBK lost value because the expansion draft came along and they were only allowed to protect one goalie, but unless another expansion is coming in the next 2-3 years that is a non-issue.
Expansion is coming

Quote:
The NHL will eventually expand to Las Vegas
Fact. Within the next five years, the league will expand to two new cities, and you can bet Las Vegas will be one of them. Hollywood mogul Jerry Bruckheimer, a big-time hockey fan, is part of a group that wants to land a team in Vegas. To do so, it will have to build a suitable arena and convince local officials to agree to take the team's games off the gambling board. The group should be successful on both fronts. The addition of Vegas and another preferably Western big-market city (Seattle?) will allow the league to realign geographically. Like it or not, get ready for the "Original 32."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column..._ej&id=2799861

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03-18-2007, 03:23 PM
  #43
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no offense Ranger Boy, but I'm not about to take expansion as a 'fact' because EJ Hradek says it is.

not that it won't happen, because Betteman and his owners probably want to, but I need alittlre more than that to convince me. God, the talent level in this league is stretched enough without adding two more teams, another in a non traditional market.

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03-18-2007, 03:44 PM
  #44
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It's not a matter of 'wanting' either Montoya or Lundqvist to win out. I could care less who wins, only that the best goalie is here for the long haul. Assuming that 'there's no way' that it could be Montoyya is a bit shortsighted. Why can't it be? As I said, he's matched Lundqvist at every stage of his career. That doesn't meen he'll be as good as Henrik at the NHL level, but it's a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out.

Right now there just isn't much to be gained by not giving Montoya the chance. Yes, you chould move him, but if you move him now your either doing so for a substandard return, or you are going to have to include more asstes along with Montoya to get the return you want. Let him come up and prove himself, give him the chance to puch Lundqvist. If Henrik is as good as we think he is then he'll be able to keep his spot, if he's not...well then we'll all be very glad that we have Montoya.

Right now the smart money is on Lundqvist being between the pipes for the next 10 years. But there is very little to lose by giving Al a chance, but there is alot to be squandered by moving him now for no reason.
That's not a bad idea at all and I wouldn't mind if it happens. Still, my general feeling right now is "If it ain't broken don't fix it". If we see Lundqvist struggle for an extended amount of time in the near future then by all means bring up Montoya. If he keeps playing like he has the past few months though and we put in Montoya just to see if he's better then that's petty darn insulting to Lundqvist if you ask me. I don't know, It could just be that I have grown to like the guy so much that I wouldn't want anyone else in the net right now. But that's just my fanboyism talking so I'll stop there

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03-18-2007, 04:27 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by OleOleOleOleBureBure View Post
I know this will be a touchy issue but:

My ultimate question is who should we trade in the offseason?

Henrik is my favorite player on the team, but it boiles down to who brings in the most value in a trade.

do we move lundquist and get a super package in return and than have Montoya in net next year or do we move montoya and get a lesser package of course but still have henrik in net.

With Montoya's turnaround in Hartford this year, it seems to me that he should be ready for hte next level. i understand he has no NHL experience just yet.
There is ZERO chance Lundqvist gets traded in the offseason, well we should at least see what Montoya can do on the NHL level. Lundqvist is a top 10 goalie in the NHL, how much better can Montoya be at the NHL level?, I say move no one, too early to talk about this.

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03-18-2007, 10:13 PM
  #46
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How are we so sure about this?
I am trusting my own eyes on this one. I've been watching hockey for almost 50 years, I covered hockey as a reporter and broadcaster and I managed a couple of minor league teams. Lundqvist is one of the 3-4 best goaltenders I have ever seen enter the NHL. Lower half of the net he is in the Roy-Brodeur class.

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03-18-2007, 10:22 PM
  #47
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In fairness that expansion is no less than 3 or 4 years away so when we start getting to June of 2010 or 2011 we can cross that bridge when we come to it, but for right now there just isn't a lot to be had for trading Montoya.

The problem is that regardless of who you believe is better, there is simply little precident for a good return for moving Montoya right now.

We can theorize and debate all we want but the fact is that there little history that says Montoya is going to bring back much value right now. So again we'd moving him just for the sake of moving him and that's not necessary right now.

Not yes if Montoya can be packages to bring back Horton, you bet. But all of that right now is just wishful thinking and is highly unlikely to actually happen.

At the end of the day the odds of Montoya passing Lundqvist are pretty slim, however there's also little incentive to trade Montoya now anyway, regardless of the odds. We can talk all day about why we'd trade him but the real question that no one can answer is what the return expectation is?

That, more than anything else in the discussion, is what is important.

The question is less about who and more about why and what.

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03-18-2007, 10:25 PM
  #48
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Montoya isn't cheap.His base salary is nearly $1 million and his cap number with the bonuses is $1.8 million
Depends on if he hits the bonuses. More than likely you're looking at about $1.5 which unless you're going with a vet with some questions about then, that's still on the low end for a backup and still a savings over Weekes.

Considering Montoya is also a 22 year old former first round pick who has grown beyond the AHL, it's a smart move all around.

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03-19-2007, 09:45 AM
  #49
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so do you think we shouldve traded him this season before the deadline and called up montoya then?
no, why bring up monty when he will play more in the ahl, let him develop, and there is no reason to hurry him, or is henrick not good enough for you?

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