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Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

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Old
05-25-2014, 02:12 PM
  #26
Canadiens1958
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Great

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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Well, the lads did miss 1632 and Père Gabriel Sagard's contribution, known since at least 1990.

Interestingly the William Dawson link to Charles Darwin is solidified by two references to an ice hockey type activity in Pictou, Nova Scotia in 1811 and 1829 well before 1842 and William Dawson from Pictou going to Edinburgh University in Scotland and well before Charles Darwin's 1853 letter to his son.

Thank you for the link.

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05-25-2014, 02:47 PM
  #27
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Well, the lads did miss 1632 and Père Gabriel Sagard's contribution, known since at least 1990.

Interestingly the William Dawson link to Charles Darwin is solidified by two references to an ice hockey type activity in Pictou, Nova Scotia in 1811 and 1829 well before 1842 and William Dawson from Pictou going to Edinburgh University in Scotland and well before Charles Darwin's 1853 letter to his son.

Thank you for the link.
It has always meant more sense to me that the length of suitable season and sheer availability of suitable (especially fresh water) ice surfaces (which are incredibly abundant our here in very close proximity to the rivers/ocean coast that the earliest settlers relied on) precipitated the adaptation of an British field game to "pass the time" (or maybe even settle disputes... that would strike me as very Canadian, lol). Given how the same culture(s) came to embrace those games in the past (see: accounts of gatherings to hurley/shinty/bandy matches in SIHR's paper there), it's easier for me to imagine that hockey (with, by SIHR's own definition in the preface: "players on skates") both started and grew popular on this side, than the reverse.

We're talking about a nation/culture that hasn't just celebrated the ability to record and proliferate information of all kinds (from the reaction to freedom of the press in the 1700s to the modern high-water mark set/maintained by entities such as the BBC and Cambridge University Press), and has celebrated both innovation and sporting endeavours for at least as long (Newton is entombed in Westminster Abbey for god's sake, and the chronicled betting on cricket in the 1700s is a matter of historical record). If the "true" origin of "hockey" is eventually proven to be somewhere in England, I submit that it will require much more than an 1838 recorded anecdote from Croxby Pond. "Necessity" could have been the mother of invention at a significantly earlier date than that over here, and the ability to proliferate information (and goods, obviously) from the colonies back across the Atlantic at such early dates is also a matter of historical record. But obviously I'm not quite in the position to prove anything one way or the other.

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05-25-2014, 03:12 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
As the county that shares the same body of water with another area staking the hockey birthplace claim (Windsor/Wolfville), and separated by less than 50 miles, is that really a giant leap?
What body of water might that be?

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05-25-2014, 03:19 PM
  #29
Ohashi_Jouzu
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What body of water might that be?
Uh... the Bay of Fundy? Probably the fastest/easiest way to get between, say, Windsor to "Pictou County" back in the day. Probably not so many convenient bridges over the Shubenacadie (which I live "on") at the time...

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05-26-2014, 03:13 AM
  #30
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http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com...volved-in.html

Another article talking about one of the Swedish historians who researched the book (and an image of the pending cover).

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05-26-2014, 03:42 PM
  #31
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Like I postulated earlier, if the true origins of the game were in Britain, in particular, I would expect a clearer chain of evidence leading back to someone staking the claim (or perhaps invitations to view/participate in/offer feedback on this new activity)
To be clear (and the media has definitely not taken pains to make this clear), the conclusion is that the Canadian origins of hockey are in Britain. No claim is made that hockey was "invented" in Britain, just that ice hockey was played in Britain before it was played in Canada, and then it was brought into Canada.

And then, of course, it was exported back out of Canada in a new and improved form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
After freedom of the press in 1696, it's hard to imagine that anything "invented" or made popular in Britain would be so hard to pin down in terms of origins, unless it came before that, or from a different place in following years.
From the perspective of it being a folk pastime that eventually morphed into the sport of ice hockey, it makes sense.


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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The 1853 Charles Darwin letter while interesting serves to introduce John William Dawson into the discussion.
The Darwin letter is ultimately a very minor point in the book.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The underlying assumption seems to be that it was not possible for hockey to be introduced to Great Britain or England from Canada.
There is not underlying assumption. There is simply analysis of the available evidence. And the analysis is as solid as the evidence.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Equally possible that the introduction went from Canada to Great Britain.
Equally possible as in also possible, then maybe. Equally possible as in just as likely, then no. Because the evidence points strongly that way.

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05-26-2014, 06:06 PM
  #32
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
To be clear (and the media has definitely not taken pains to make this clear), the conclusion is that the Canadian origins of hockey are in Britain. No claim is made that hockey was "invented" in Britain, just that ice hockey was played in Britain before it was played in Canada, and then it was brought into Canada.

And then, of course, it was exported back out of Canada in a new and improved form.
Certainly is an interesting claim. Not the British "origins" part, mind you, because it's easy to see how a British field game (or Bandy, which is/was played on ice, of course) could have been the inspiration/foundation. If playing a team "stick and ball" game on skates wasn't "invented" in Britain, though, I don't know where else you'd find suitable conditions in even earlier British-controlled territory.

And it still doesn't reconcile the Pictou-based hockey references pre-dating the Croxby Pond account by decades, or the fact that the Dutch - who supposedly brought ice skating to Britain initially - also established themselves in North America long, loooong before 1838, and could figure into the history that we're still missing.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 05-26-2014 at 06:29 PM.
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05-26-2014, 08:01 PM
  #33
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Certainly is an interesting claim. Not the British "origins" part, mind you, because it's easy to see how a British field game (or Bandy, which is/was played on ice, of course) could have been the inspiration/foundation. If playing a team "stick and ball" game on skates wasn't "invented" in Britain, though, I don't know where else you'd find suitable conditions in even earlier British-controlled territory.
It might very well have been invented there, I'm just saying that it cannot be stated definitively. It's always possible more evidence will be uncovered in the future that push the first ice hockey game further back, and into other locations.

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05-26-2014, 08:45 PM
  #34
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This is how I look at it. Where did the game get popularized? England? No way. Canada. We can debate until we are blue in the face about its actual origins but the truth is if a certain part of the world would have invented hockey you would think they would embrace it and never let it go right? Well................

I'll give you an example. Basketball was invented by Canadian James Naismith in Boston. The NBA Hall of Fame is still in Boston. Not many Canadians thump their chests that Basketball is "their" game. But we do with Hockey. Because we embraced it, we perfected it, and by the looks of it to this day it still looks like it was introduced here (possibly).

It kind of reminds me of this. Who is the first NHL goalie to wear a mask? Jacques Plante? Wrong. Clint Benedict. He wore one to repair a broken nose. Plante wore one and popularized it. Who do we give credit for the mask? Plante. Rightly so as well. Benedict wore it for health reasons and then tossed it. So if hockey was invented somewhere else in the world (which is near impossible to prove) it was an afterthought and it obviously became embraced in Canada where it became what we know today.

To me, that is the true method of "inventing the game"

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05-27-2014, 08:04 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Arctic explorer John Franklin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin's_lost_expedition

Doomed last voyage. Provisions are such that there does not seem to be room for recreational Equipment. Earlier perhaps. Still the issue of native Canadian guides or Canadian experienced crew on board has to be explored.
Franklin cited playing hockey on the ice during the 1825 expedition, not his final voyage into the Northwest Passage. Another document confirmed the 1825 expedition took skates as part of their equipment.

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05-27-2014, 09:37 AM
  #36
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The first official hockey club Blackheath was formed 1862. The first publication (Book of Sports) of hockey rules was in 1810.

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05-27-2014, 11:24 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 View Post
The first official hockey club Blackheath was formed 1862. The first publication (Book of Sports) of hockey rules was in 1810.
Field hockey

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05-27-2014, 11:28 AM
  #38
Canadiens1958
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Link and Reference

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Originally Posted by Deceptions View Post
Franklin cited playing hockey on the ice during the 1825 expedition, not his final voyage into the Northwest Passage. Another document confirmed the 1825 expedition took skates as part of their equipment.
Link and reference?

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05-27-2014, 11:39 AM
  #39
Canadiens1958
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Pere Gabriel Sagard II

Rather interesting image of French Catholic Clergy enjoying an athletic activity in the 17th century, ibid Donald Guay 1990.

Yet Père Gabriel Sagard as reported by Donald Guay on the previous two pages distinguishes between the activity in France and the activity practiced on ice by native Canadian Indians at the same time independent of the activity in France.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sagard1.jpg‎ (290.6 KB, 28 views)

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05-27-2014, 11:45 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Link and reference?
http://sonahrsports.com/discovery-of...t-p110-107.htm

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05-27-2014, 01:42 PM
  #41
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Priesthood

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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Thank you for the link.

Rather interesting. The use of the word priesthood in connection with Franklin's background suggests a Catholic education. Coupled with Canadian native people involvement link back to Père Gabriel Sagard and the Catholic missionaries in Canada and their connection to sports in the early 17th century as posted previously.

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05-27-2014, 01:47 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
This is how I look at it. Where did the game get popularized? England? No way. Canada. We can debate until we are blue in the face about its actual origins but the truth is if a certain part of the world would have invented hockey you would think they would embrace it and never let it go right?
Here is a quote from the conclusion of the book:

"Today, regardless of where it is played, hockey is a truly Canadian game. *That* is the legacy of the first Montreal game."

The media is playing up the whole "haha, it's really an English game!" angle, but the authors do not. They are researching the, as you say, "actual origins." But they make no claim that this means modern hockey should not be considered a Canadian game. That would be foolish.

But with all the claims about hockey's "birthplace" is various specific locales in Canada, addressing these origins is valuable.

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05-27-2014, 02:55 PM
  #43
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It makes a lot of common sense that it was invented in England. England used to get much more icy than it does now, field hockey was invented there, we know the English were incredibly good at inventing and spreading games, and other ice sports like curling and bandy were invented in the UK.

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05-27-2014, 09:41 PM
  #44
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A fascinating debate. Would it be possible for someone to summarize the known information? I.e., first known instance of an ice hockey game (whether visual, e.g., painting or illustration) or narrative in England.

The first such event in Canada or the pre-Canada North American European settlements.

First instance of a field hockey game in England.

The ditto in Canada.

First instance of usage of the term hockey, or hockey stick, to describe the game or main implement of the sport.

Gary

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05-27-2014, 11:13 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
It makes a lot of common sense that it was invented in England. England used to get much more icy than it does now, field hockey was invented there, we know the English were incredibly good at inventing and spreading games, and other ice sports like curling and bandy were invented in the UK.
They were also incredibly good at chronicling games and developments. It seems to me that the "grass roots" that produced the first "relevant" incarnation of hockey are yet to be found (in recorded history) if the best we have yet are accounts of fairly organized events that are already unambiguously referred to as hockey/hocky.

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05-27-2014, 11:19 PM
  #46
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^^^ Yes its a mystery, all rather vague & sketchy. Possible something, a diary or whatever does eventually turn up but until then.....

Fascinating none the less.

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05-28-2014, 09:36 AM
  #47
Gary Gillman
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I did look at the 2010 Timeline posted above from the hockey research institute. I gather from press reports on the new book authored by the Timeline writers and M. Martel that Darwin's experiences at school would have preceded by some years the 1825 Franklin expedition reference. And also, the cover of their book is a 1797 painting or illustration which shows a hockey-like game in the London area, albeit the title of the piece, or what survives, doesn't state it is a hockey scene.

Is this the nub of it, that the earliest account of hockey so-called, played in Canada, postdates references to ice hockey being played in England?

Gary

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05-28-2014, 11:03 AM
  #48
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
Is this the nub of it, that the earliest account of hockey so-called, played in Canada, postdates references to ice hockey being played in England?
This is essentially it. Any hockey development recorded in Canada is preceded by the same development in England. Even when you get into "organized" hockey, however ill-defined that might be. There are ice hockey matches played in England in 1870 and 1871 about which we know at least as much as the first Montreal game in 1875 - and in some cases we know more, such as the identity of the goal-scorers.

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05-28-2014, 11:28 AM
  #49
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One source that might bear fruit if mined and records were kept would be at the public school (what we call private in North America) levels in the UK. Generally sports records of individuals/teams be it intramural or in competitions against other schools were kept. Just a thought really.

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05-28-2014, 11:29 AM
  #50
Gary Gillman
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
This is essentially it. Any hockey development recorded in Canada is preceded by the same development in England. Even when you get into "organized" hockey, however ill-defined that might be. There are ice hockey matches played in England in 1870 and 1871 about which we know at least as much as the first Montreal game in 1875 - and in some cases we know more, such as the identity of the goal-scorers.
Okay thanks, that is very interesting. Many know or would accept that field hockey has an old origin in Britain, but would assume that snowy Canada innovated ice hockey. Clearly, there is no evidence of this, however, and the British claim must, for now at least, be given priority.

Gary

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