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Tom Lysiak : Consequences on Hawks, refs (parallel with Rangers/Carcillo)

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05-26-2014, 10:18 AM
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MXD
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Tom Lysiak : Consequences on Hawks, refs (parallel with Rangers/Carcillo)

Disclaimer : I'm a Habs fan. Yesterday, lots of penalties were called against the Rangers. Not that those were not infractions, but they were the kind of infractions that were called about 4% of the time in the playoffs. Rangers also seemed to have much less wiggle room for things like offsides -- while the Habs had a lot of such room. It was really obvious, even to me, who is totally not objective on that matchup (even though the Rangers are one of my favorite teams in the league, as the regulars here might have already figured out.

Now, back on topic. I seem to remember Hawks fans saying that, following the Lysiak incident, every call that could go against the Hawks went against the Hawks, while their opponents had some leeway. Is that true ? Can somebody else other than Hawks fans support that suggestion ?


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05-26-2014, 06:58 PM
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Refs are human, and a very united bunch. The league over-protects them as if they are an autistic child though (ie. a fine if you publicly criticize the referees). But either way, they band together. We saw this in 1988 when Jim Schoenfeld shoved Don Koharski (the "donut" incident) and there were replacement refs briefly because the refs banded together to not call the games.

So bottom line, a borderline call is likely going to go against the Rangers in my opinion. The Habs got the calls going the right way for them last night I thought, especially early on, but yeah, these things can happen inadvertently.

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05-26-2014, 10:35 PM
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I haven't even seen Rangers fans think it was because of Carcillo. That's an interesting theory. However, the worst call/no-call of the series happened before the Carcillo incident. The Prust hit on Stepan. If there IS anything fishy going on it's likely to make this a close series and not because of Carcillo.

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05-27-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post

Now, back on topic. I seem to remember Hawks fans saying that, following the Lysiak incident, every call that could go against the Hawks went against the Hawks, while their opponents had some leeway. Is that true ? Can somebody else other than Hawks fans support that suggestion ?
One word describes those thoughts. "Falacy."

I knew the Linesman involved in the incident and also many of the officials on the NHL staff at that time. I even worked with some of them and a couple of them were good friends.

Another word that I might use, to describe NHL officials then and now:

in∑teg∑ri∑ty

1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
"he is known to be a man of integrity"
synonyms: honesty, probity, rectitude, honor, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness

Just to show my impartiality in my comment, back around that time, in the early 1980's, I was asked by the head Western Canada Scout for the Blackhawks if I would be interested in scouting for them.

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05-27-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
One word describes those thoughts. "Falacy."

I knew the Linesman involved in the incident and also many of the officials on the NHL staff at that time. I even worked with some of them and a couple of them were good friends.

Another word that I might use, to describe NHL officials then and now:

in∑teg∑ri∑ty

1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
"he is known to be a man of integrity"
synonyms: honesty, probity, rectitude, honor, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness

Just to show my impartiality in my comment, back around that time, in the early 1980's, I was asked by the head Western Canada Scout for the Blackhawks if I would be interested in scouting for them.
I respect your opinion, however, I think you are being unrealistically idealistic here. While many refs and linesmen do have integrity, some just didn't earn it. Throughout history, the suspect ones blatantly avoided making calls which led to many conspiracy theories. Whether the conspiracy theories are true or not, that fact that they avoided/ignored to make the right call at the time is the evidence. We are seeing this unfold in baseball right now with the challenges available to managers on calls made by umpires. Many umpires have notoriously been known to behave as though they are autocratic and tossing anyone who challenges it. I don't see refs entirely in the same way now, but there was a time when their word was unchallengeable. Replay in baseball so far has shown that umpires are consistently correct in their calls, but are subject to normal human error on occasion. Its been good for baseball other than the fact that it has slowed the game down.

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05-27-2014, 04:17 PM
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There was no substantial difference in the number of PP opportunities for and against Chicago between the 82-83 and 83-84 seasons. In all likelihood it's just a case of fans thinking the officials are out to get their team, which is ridiculous. After all, on the playoff board of this site it seemed like every team had posters convinced that the referees were biased against them.

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05-28-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
I respect your opinion, however, I think you are being unrealistically idealistic here.
Well, I did check under my bed before going to sleep last night, but I couldn't find any Conspirators.

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05-28-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
I respect your opinion, however, I think you are being unrealistically idealistic here. While many refs and linesmen do have integrity, some just didn't earn it. Throughout history, the suspect ones blatantly avoided making calls which led to many conspiracy theories. Whether the conspiracy theories are true or not, that fact that they avoided/ignored to make the right call at the time is the evidence.
Have you got some examples LBD? Ref's have always been challenged by players, Coaches, GM's & Owners from the stands, in hallways, even a few Officials Dressing Rooms being crashed by angry team personnel. There have been a couple of "questionable" calls over the past nearly 100yrs of the NHL's existence most assuredly but nothing really blatant. The only guy who Id single out at all would be Clarence Campbell & his on~ice work in the 30's & then as league President in dealing, handling Referee's very unfairly. Red Storey for example. Several instances whereby I believe Campbell was not acting objectively nor honestly, for the good of the game.

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05-28-2014, 02:51 PM
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Have you got some examples LBD? Ref's have always been challenged by players, Coaches, GM's & Owners from the stands, in hallways, even a few Officials Dressing Rooms being crashed by angry team personnel. There have been a couple of "questionable" calls over the past nearly 100yrs of the NHL's existence most assuredly but nothing really blatant. The only guy who Id single out at all would be Clarence Campbell & his on~ice work in the 30's & then as league President in dealing, handling Referee's very unfairly. Red Storey for example. Several instances whereby I believe Campbell was not acting objectively nor honestly, for the good of the game.
Yes, I was going to mention Storey, but also Fraser for his non-call on Gretzky in 93. Tons of Leafs fans still in pain today because of that. Other than that, I think it is pretty evident from the time I started watching hockey in the late 70's up until the 04-05 lockout that the refs basically swallowed their whistle in the third period in most big games. The only huge call I can recall was the Bos/Mtl game 7 in 1979 when there were up to 8 skaters on the ice depending on who you ask. Myers had to call that and if you look at him closely as he's skating to the time keeper, he looks uncomfortable (possibly my interpretation though). A lot of this was due to the NHL's interpretation of the rulebook in these eras which was in some cases outrageous at times. When guys like Stevens can take 5 or more strides to line you up and knock you out of a game and not get a penalty, that's just wrong. Baseball, there have been many bad calls that the home plate umpire could have overruled or a conference between all umpires could have resulted in the right call. Ones that come to mind are the call at first base in the 85 WS, the 96 playoff between NYY and Baltimore where the fan reached over and snatched the ball before the O's outfielder could catch it and a very bad call a couple of years ago in the playoffs between the NYY and Twins on a fair ball.

My main point is that integrity should be earned; it should not be demanded just because you are wearing the stripes or calling balls and strikes (which are not arguable btw). I liken the authority some officials tended to exude to the lyrics of Another Brick in the Wall. Roger Waters wrote them to challenge the respect many teachers expected to have but did not act like they deserved. Call me a rebel or maybe I'm the idealist. I don't like painting everyone with the same brush, but yet I am in some ways because of my criticism of NHL refs during a few eras. However, part of me thinks that many of these refs knew they let infractions go, but because it would go against the grain if the called it they decided to stay neutral. Easier said than done.

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05-28-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post

My main point is that integrity should be earned; it should not be demanded
That is what I always lived by. This is from an article that I wrote:

Earning the respect of players, coaches and fellow officials is a very important part of the game. It makes your job easier. You do that by skating hard, knowing the rules, being honest, being fair, being in good condition, showing respect to the players and using common sense. Also, be consistent, firm in your calls and in position. I used the Rule Book as a guide not a God. Learn from your mistakes, because you will make them. And don’t criticize fellow officials behind their backs. Don’t hesitate to help younger and newer officials.

You may not like it, but that's the way you would be successful in officiating. If you called the game exactly by the book, you wouldn't be around too long. This is from a book written by Dick Irving called Tough Calls. Bryan Lewis who had a very successful career as an NHL referee and went on to become the Director of Officiating for the NHL tells this story of his first NHL training camp.

He was with John Ashley. Ashley pulled out the rule book, held it in front of Lewis, opened it up and fanned the pages. Then he said, "Okay they can't say you never opened the rule book. Now go out and use common sense."

Ashley was so highly regarded by the teams and the rest of the NHL, that he was once assigned to work every seventh game in the Stanley Cup playoffs and he is an inductee in the HOF.

As for myself, over the years, I was selected to officiate, League, City, Provincial, State and National championships in both the US and Canada.

You might not like it, but the hockey community seemed to be satisfied with that style of officiating. When I was supervising for the Minneapolis Hockey Officials, I was sitting next to Murray Williamson, who coached the 1968 and 1972 US Olympic Hockey teams and told him that I want to see the officials use the rule book as a Guide, not a God and he responded, "I like that."

You also bring up the officiating in other sports. I do have one question, why isn't holding called on every play in football?


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05-28-2014, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
That is what I always lived by. This is from an article that I wrote:

Earning the respect of players, coaches and fellow officials is a very important part of the game. It makes your job easier. You do that by skating hard, knowing the rules, being honest, being fair, being in good condition, showing respect to the players and using common sense. Also, be consistent, firm in your calls and in position. I used the Rule Book as a guide not a God. Learn from your mistakes, because you will make them. And donít criticize fellow officials behind their backs. Donít hesitate to help younger and newer officials.

You may not like it, but that's the way you would be successful in officiating. If you called the game exactly by the book, you wouldn't be around too long. This is from a book written by Dick Irving called Tough Calls. Bryan Lewis who had a very successful career as an NHL referee and went on to become the Director of Officiating for the NHL tells this story of his first NHL training camp.

He was with John Ashley. Ashley pulled out the rule book, held it in front of Lewis, opened it up and fanned the pages. Then he said, "Okay they can't say you never opened the rule book. Now go out and use common sense."

Ashley was so highly regarded by the teams and the rest of the NHL, that he was once assigned to work every seventh game in the Stanley Cup playoffs and he is an inductee in the HOF.

As for myself, over the years, I was selected to officiate, League, City, Provincial, State and National championships in both the US and Canada.

You might not like it, but the hockey community seemed to be satisfied with that style of officiating. When I was supervising for the Minneapolis Hockey Officials, I was sitting next to Murray Williamson, who coached the 1968 and 1972 US Olympic Hockey teams and told him that I want to see the officials use the rule book as a Guide, not a God and he responded, "I like that."

You also bring up the officiating in other sports. I do have one question, why isn't holding called on every play in football?
Good question and I appreciate your response. I may not be great at reading between the lines but I think I get what you mean by 'why isn't holding called on every play in football.' I also agree with your take on manuals. As a former social worker, if I went by all the manuals I read I'd never connect with the client. Being able to communicate respectfully and consistently is probably the cornerstone in any line of work. That is some of what creates integrity.

However, what is your perspective on how the game was called prior to the 04-05 lockout to now? Personally, I think the NHL took a giant step forward with their attitude toward officials, how they want them to work, how they support and discipline them and how that has changed the general public's attitude toward officials. I see officials now as much more involved in the game which, in turn, has generated much more respect from these set of eyes. I have no idea if my thoughts represent the majority or minority or anywhere in between. Rarely, do I ever walk away from a game now saying that the ref should have called this or shouldn't have called that. Maybe its my changing perspective as I grow into my mid-40's, but I believe that the NHL has created an atmosphere for their officials to be respected more.

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05-28-2014, 05:25 PM
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On a related note, the number of calls the Rangers received yesterday was in great contrast to what happened during last Sunday's game in which Montreal was on the receiving end of the calls.

If there one thing you can say about the NHL it is the most reactionary league in terms of "evening things up." You could see what was going to happen from a mile away.

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05-28-2014, 07:48 PM
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Easier said than done.
Well, one of my all time favorite Ref's Bruce Hood once said "there are 3 people out there managing a hockey game; the 2 Coaches & the Referee". Now of course and since the time youve noted differences there are actually 2 Referee's & multiple Coaches behind each bench, eyes in the sky cameras' catching everything & everything done by committee's in AV suites apparently. Cant say Im a big fan of that approach LBD. In fact, dont like it. No Sir. Not one bit..... Should only be one Ref out there and they should instead simply give the 2 Linesman additional authority to call crap behind the play. Rules are ingrained from childhood, common sense be your guide.... Secondly, Assistant Coaches? Fine. Just not behind the bench during games thank you very much. You guys go sit & watch from up~high or a seat and no wireless or other communications to the bench during periods. Give the game back to the 3 most critical people in the building & stop with the micromanaging of every facet, crevice & call. As Tom Petty laments, yer jammin me. Bunch of stuff theyve monkeyed with thats ripped a hole in the shrowd of integrity that until recent times wasnt something one ever even thought to question. Dink rinking around with the playing surface in movin the lines on the ice, messing with creases, moving goal lines & nets out.... all kinds of things. Not good.


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05-28-2014, 08:35 PM
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Should only be one Ref out there and they should instead simply give the 2 Linesman additional authority to call crap behind the play. Rules are ingrained from childhood, common sense be your guide.... Secondly, Assistant Coaches? Fine. Just not behind the bench during games thank you very much. Micromanaging of every facet, crevice & call.
Yeah, sounds quite reasonable. Give the linesmen more authority. They see enough to inform the ref. Umpires help other umpires; one crew chief and they rotate. No need to have a huge differentiation in authority between refs and linesmen. They don't have to rotate though. As for the micromanaging, ugh, I'm afraid its here to stay. That's why we gots 57 Channels and Nuttin' on.

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05-29-2014, 04:30 PM
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Now, back on topic. I seem to remember Hawks fans saying that, following the Lysiak incident, every call that could go against the Hawks went against the Hawks, while their opponents had some leeway. Is that true ? Can somebody else other than Hawks fans support that suggestion ?
Very dubious claim. The Hawks were 15th in PM that year. Not sure why anyone would believe the refs were out to specifically punish the Hawks, Lysiak got 20 games, surely a professional would feel that the punishment for Lysiak was adequate.

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