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Old
03-19-2007, 08:22 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
The main problem was rushing Manny into the NHL. If he had gone back into juniors even for one season he might have become more of an offensive player. Muckler's assessment of him as turned out to be dead on however how John himself handled him particularly in his second season was horrible. He basically didn't use him to get even with Smith who was trying to fire him. That particular draft was not a very strong one--we did miss out on Simon Gagne who went late in the first but there were quite a number of busts in the first two rounds.

As for Dubinsky he has been given a chance to develop his game--and not been pigeon holed as a this or a that. I think he has an upside now as a potential 2nd line center--whether he reaches that or not remains to be seen at this point but he seems to me to be a safe bet at least as a good 3rd line center with some offensive skill.

I think you pretty much nailed it!

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03-19-2007, 11:11 PM
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Don't agree with a lot of the comments here.

1. Dubinsky better than Savard? Cmon now.

2. Malhotra taken too high? Not at all, he was a consensus top 10 pick and nearly went even higher to Vancouver.

3. Rushed to the NHL? Not at all, he didn't look out of place at all in the NHL his rookie season and popped in 8 goals and 16 points with limited ice time. The problem wasn't rushing him, the problem with Malhotra, like Blackburn, was the second season where instead of increasing the responsibility slightly he was actually dropped further down the depth chart. From there he was told to change positions and the fiasco that was that situation.

The Rangers problem, traditionally, doesn't seem to be the rookie seasons, it's the second or third seasons that they seem to get dumbfounded with. From Granato to Amonte to Malhotra to York to Blackburn to Prucha, it's that 3 year shelf life this team has before they eventually get into trouble. The one player that they did hold on to for too long and turn down good deals for, Kovalev, was probably the one time they should've made the move.

4. I think Malhotra could've been more of a scorer but by the time he was even given a chance to be a player, those possibilities were gone and it was a matter of trying to salvage a third line player out of him. Malhotra showed a scoring touch and abilities in the OHL playoffs/memorial cup (in two consecutive years), the prospects game and other stages.

People forget that he was used by his coach in the OHL as a defensive player during the regular season and that when the leash was removed he often was able to score. Simply going to hockeydb.com and looking at his stat sheet doesn't show that.

It also wasn't just the Rangers who were crazy about the kid. Scouting services, THN, ESPN, everyone loved him. He drew comparisons to a young Brindamour, he was seen as NHL-ready, you name it.

The problem didn't really start until the second season when Muckler (another stooge who got lucky to be in the right place at the right time with some amazing Oilers talent) decided that he was going to try and make his play for the GM spot. Malhotra, whom he didn't want to draft (for the record he wanted Jeff Heerema that draft or a trade for LEgwand that fell through), became his card to play.

Was Smith perhaps a little too excited for Malhotra? Perhaps, but if you saw what he did when he wasn't in a defensive role in juniors you probably wouldn't have thought he was that far off either back then.

As for Malhotra vs. Betts, I'd still take Malhotra. Betts in a good year is looking at 10 points, Malhotra at the very least is about 10 goals and 20-30 points.

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03-19-2007, 11:42 PM
  #28
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Excellent post, Edge.

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03-20-2007, 12:50 AM
  #29
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Excellent post, Edge.
agreed, that was good

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03-20-2007, 01:35 AM
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I agree with Alkurtz, Edge and others... It wouldn't have mattered whom we would've picked, we would've ruined the kid. Malhotra was the most mature 18 year old in 98 - If my memory doesn't fail me he was a Memorial Cup MVP that year. If we would've drafted someone who not as mature as Manny, that kid wouldn't have had a chance, be it Gagne, Tanguay, or probably even Gomez.

Our organization historically has been so flawed.

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03-20-2007, 08:45 AM
  #31
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Malhotra

IMO I think the only thing stopping Malhotra from being the power foward the Rangers hoped was himself. This guy showed that he can absolutely run through people...but he didn't do it enough. He showed that he could be a leader on the ice and was willing to drop the gloves to stand up for his teammates...but he didn't do it enough. I had thought he was one of the best hitters the Rangers have ever drafted...but he didn't do it enough! For his offensive ability, I guess he was lacking in that department somewhat, but he could have gotten better. I think there comes a point where some of the blame for the player not rising to the top is lack of confidence in himself and his abilities, and not the coaching staff, or organization. He was young enough to succeed elsewhere, but he never elevated his game to the next level.

Imagine if you could have put Sean Avery's heart into Manny's body?

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03-20-2007, 08:48 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I like Dubinsky, but there's no way he's as good now as Savard was at the same age.

Savard was scoring on the same pace as Joe Thornton in Jr.'s and was an offensive whiz.

In fact he took an old and decrepit Kevin Stevens and made him a 20+ goal scorer in his first season in the NHL. Marc Savard is, was and will be much better offensively than Dubinsky.

Brandon will top out to being a very good 2nd line center, Marc Savard is a top line pivot, I'd place him in the top half of the NHL right now.
Let's talk a year from now.

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03-20-2007, 09:17 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Don't agree with a lot of the comments here.

1. Dubinsky better than Savard? Cmon now.

2. Malhotra taken too high? Not at all, he was a consensus top 10 pick and nearly went even higher to Vancouver.

3. Rushed to the NHL? Not at all, he didn't look out of place at all in the NHL his rookie season and popped in 8 goals and 16 points with limited ice time. The problem wasn't rushing him, the problem with Malhotra, like Blackburn, was the second season where instead of increasing the responsibility slightly he was actually dropped further down the depth chart. From there he was told to change positions and the fiasco that was that situation.

The Rangers problem, traditionally, doesn't seem to be the rookie seasons, it's the second or third seasons that they seem to get dumbfounded with. From Granato to Amonte to Malhotra to York to Blackburn to Prucha, it's that 3 year shelf life this team has before they eventually get into trouble. The one player that they did hold on to for too long and turn down good deals for, Kovalev, was probably the one time they should've made the move.

4. I think Malhotra could've been more of a scorer but by the time he was even given a chance to be a player, those possibilities were gone and it was a matter of trying to salvage a third line player out of him. Malhotra showed a scoring touch and abilities in the OHL playoffs/memorial cup (in two consecutive years), the prospects game and other stages.

People forget that he was used by his coach in the OHL as a defensive player during the regular season and that when the leash was removed he often was able to score. Simply going to hockeydb.com and looking at his stat sheet doesn't show that.

It also wasn't just the Rangers who were crazy about the kid. Scouting services, THN, ESPN, everyone loved him. He drew comparisons to a young Brindamour, he was seen as NHL-ready, you name it.

The problem didn't really start until the second season when Muckler (another stooge who got lucky to be in the right place at the right time with some amazing Oilers talent) decided that he was going to try and make his play for the GM spot. Malhotra, whom he didn't want to draft (for the record he wanted Jeff Heerema that draft or a trade for LEgwand that fell through), became his card to play.

Was Smith perhaps a little too excited for Malhotra? Perhaps, but if you saw what he did when he wasn't in a defensive role in juniors you probably wouldn't have thought he was that far off either back then.

As for Malhotra vs. Betts, I'd still take Malhotra. Betts in a good year is looking at 10 points, Malhotra at the very least is about 10 goals and 20-30 points.
My question is why would they (Guelph) use Manny in a defensive role if he had the ability to be a better scorer? It's not like they had any real offensive whiz's that they could spare his potential production. During Manny's draft year Brian Willsie was their top scorer, yes he had a fine season in Washington last year but he has come back to reality in LA this year. While he had a fine season in the NHL, Manny would have benefitted a great deal by spending another 2 years in Jr.s where he would have had the opportunity to refine his defensive game and develpe that scoring touch people thought he had.

I know what people were saying about the kid back then, but I didn't agree with them then, nor do I now. I don't think the kid had any potential to be any more than what he is today, and that's not bad because he's a fine player today and would most certainly rather have him than Betts. Also I agree with your point about the 2nd year issues this team has with prospects. It's like they have no idea what to do with youngsters that don't pick up where they left off from the previous season.

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Old
03-20-2007, 09:22 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Let's talk a year from now.
we can talk 10 years from now, that's not going to change the fact that Savard is light years beyond Dubinsky offensively.

As an overall player? I'd say that in 10 years Brandon will be the better overall player, but still no where near the offensive player that Savard is.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=15605

those are Marc's stats from Jr.'s, Brandon has never approached those totals.

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03-20-2007, 10:24 AM
  #35
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Great post Edge, exactly my thoughts on Manny.

People forget how badly Colorado wanted Malhotra and just how GOOD he was in the memorial cup that year. He was everywhere, scored, hit like a bull.

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03-20-2007, 10:28 AM
  #36
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I love when people try to bring up scoring and leave out the whole picture. For starters his last 3 years in the WHL his teams stunk. He led them in scoring 2 out of 3 years. He played 71, 68 and 51 games in those years and averaged well over a point in 2 of those seasons. His team in his last year was 2-17 when he got hurt. Maholtra is lousy compared to Dubinsky. Period.

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03-20-2007, 05:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
My question is why would they (Guelph) use Manny in a defensive role if he had the ability to be a better scorer?
The same reason the Rangers turned Poti into a defensive defenseman last year, Pock into a much more defensive defenseman this year, same for Tyutin... the same reason the Devils had Bill Guerin on their defensive crash line in 1994... etc etc etc

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03-21-2007, 07:40 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
I agree with Alkurtz, Edge and others... It wouldn't have mattered whom we would've picked, we would've ruined the kid. Malhotra was the most mature 18 year old in 98 - If my memory doesn't fail me he was a Memorial Cup MVP that year. If we would've drafted someone who not as mature as Manny, that kid wouldn't have had a chance, be it Gagne, Tanguay, or probably even Gomez.

Our organization historically has been so flawed.
Chris Madden was the MVP that year.
The Rangers really screwed with Manny and didn't give him the proper development he needed. He should have spent more time with The Storm in Guelph, logging lots of ice time and trying to be the best of his peers.

Manny had a unique view of Wayne Gretzky's final season as his locker was to The Great Ones right. The picture in The Hockey News magaine of Gretzky hanging up his skates for the final time has Malhotra's nameplate in it.


Last edited by Kanadian: 03-21-2007 at 09:09 AM. Reason: add detail
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Old
03-21-2007, 07:45 AM
  #39
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The Rangers really screwed with Manny and didn't give him the proper development he needed. He should have spent more time with The Storm in Guelph, logging lots of ice time and trying to be the best of his peers.

Manny had a unique view of Wayne Gretzky's final season as his locker was to The Great Ones right. The picture in The Hockey News magaine of Gretzky hanging up his skates for the final time has Malhotra's nameplate in it.
Oh, snap! I remember that during on of the Fox's broadcasts that season, they were doing a feature on Malhotra - he was named one of the "40 (or some other number) teenagers to change the world" by Teen or some other magazine like that! You know what?! If he had played in Colorado, he probably would've become such a teenager.

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03-21-2007, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The same reason the Rangers turned Poti into a defensive defenseman last year, Pock into a much more defensive defenseman this year, same for Tyutin... the same reason the Devils had Bill Guerin on their defensive crash line in 1994... etc etc etc
Which is what?

Not sure I understand what you are getting at?

That the coach on his Jr. team mis-used him?

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03-21-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
Oh, snap! I remember that during on of the Fox's broadcasts that season, they were doing a feature on Malhotra - he was named one of the "40 (or some other number) teenagers to change the world" by Teen or some other magazine like that! You know what?! If he had played in Colorado, he probably would've become such a teenager.

I remember that too. This kid was totally hyped up. Another thing on him was either Newsdays, or the Posts(can't remember which paper) did full page spread called "the Next One" Full two page spread on his career up untill the Rangers drafted him.

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03-21-2007, 06:48 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Which is what?

Not sure I understand what you are getting at?

That the coach on his Jr. team mis-used him?
No, that teams often use players that have otherwise pretty good offensive talent in more defensive roles as part of their development. That's not misuse, it's just a course plot. I'm sure that, given more time with him, Guelph's coach would've started using Manny in more offensive roles. At that point, being older than many of his opponents, he could've started to gain some confidence in his offense, which would've led to him putting more emphasis on his offense, which could've led to him having more of an offensive edge coming into the NHL. The Rangers did him a major disservice by bringing him up right away.

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03-21-2007, 07:35 PM
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I was wondering what everyone thinks about a talent comparison between Manny Malhotra and Brandon Dubinsky.
As much as I hate to admit it, as I never disliked a coach more than I disliked John Muckler, he was right-on in his accessment of Malhotra as eventually being a 3rd liner. In a between periods interview when the Jackets were in MSG a few weeks ago, Manny was asked about his game and he said that he was primarily a defensive center who used his size, strength and forechecking ability against the other teams top centers and he liked to be on the ice in the last few minutes with the game on the line.
I remember the buzz around Manny when he was picked at #7 in 1998: he had all the intangibles (intelligence, leadership ability) and physical attributes to be a mainstay of the team for years. There seemed to be few doubters about Manny. While he never was a big scorer in junior, it was hoped he would develop a scoring touch. Did the Rangers misuse him or has he become the player he was meant to be? He made the team in 98 after a good camp and because the Rangers were so thin at center. Over the next few years he seemed to be with the Rangers when he should have been in the AHL and at other times was with Hartford when he should have been with the big club, the poster child for Ranger misuse of youth. Overall however, his career has been a disappointment for someone drafted so high.

Dubinsky and Malhotra are about the same size. While Brandon scored more in junior than Malhotra did, he never put up really big numbers (78, 59, 67 points in his last three years in the WHL vs. 51 and 44 pts for Manny in his two years in the OHL). Manny seemed to be more of a power skater than Brandon is. Brandon seems to have more on ice awareness than Manny did.

So, what will Brandon's career track be? Does he have the offensive skills and talents to be a #2 center? I thought Manny did, but it never happened. Will Brandon end up a #3 center? I have not made up my mind yet, but I think the comparison between the 2 is worth talking about.
I dont remember much about Malhotra but Dubincky and Manny are completely different players from what I remember. I thought Malhotra just had speed and that was all. But I dont really remember him that well

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03-21-2007, 08:41 PM
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My question is why would they (Guelph) use Manny in a defensive role if he had the ability to be a better scorer? It's not like they had any real offensive whiz's that they could spare his potential production. During Manny's draft year Brian Willsie was their top scorer, yes he had a fine season in Washington last year but he has come back to reality in LA this year. While he had a fine season in the NHL, Manny would have benefitted a great deal by spending another 2 years in Jr.s where he would have had the opportunity to refine his defensive game and develpe that scoring touch people thought he had.
Well I don't know the reasons Manny was used in a defensive role, but that's how he was used. He looked just fine offensivly when he was let loose in prospect games and playoff games, etc.

Malhotra could've spent two more years in the OHL, but we still get back to the point that he looked fine at the NHL level. If there was no problem with how he played at the NHL, than I don't know what you could really do differently.

The sad thing is whether the Rangers kept him in the OHL, NHL or AHL they didn't know what the heck to do with him. Low wasn't any better than Muckler and there whether he was screwed up as a 19 year old or a 21 year old the outcome would likely have been the same. He would've had a good rookie year and then a yo-yo second year which seemed to be par the course for the time.

Quote:
I know what people were saying about the kid back then, but I didn't agree with them then, nor do I now. I don't think the kid had any potential to be any more than what he is today, and that's not bad because he's a fine player today and would most certainly rather have him than Betts. Also I agree with your point about the 2nd year issues this team has with prospects. It's like they have no idea what to do with youngsters that don't pick up where they left off from the previous season.
Well at the end of the day we see stuff we like and don't like in prospects.I think Malhotra could've been a pretty good 20-25 goal scorer and frankly it wouldn't shock me to see him as a late bloomer in the regard. But the real key is that the Rangers weren't really stretching for him. Vancouver very nearly took him 4th, Calgary nearly took him 6th and I doubt he slips out of the top-10 that draft. Heck even the Avs were willing to part with two first round picks for him to grab him at the 6 spot.

Either way you cut it, Malhotra is the first prospect fans think of when they think of the Rangers NOT developing a young player the right way. That's sad.

Though I don't know about you but I can't believe that he was drafted 9 years ago.

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03-21-2007, 09:51 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Well I don't know the reasons Manny was used in a defensive role, but that's how he was used. He looked just fine offensivly when he was let loose in prospect games and playoff games, etc.

Malhotra could've spent two more years in the OHL, but we still get back to the point that he looked fine at the NHL level. If there was no problem with how he played at the NHL, than I don't know what you could really do differently.

The sad thing is whether the Rangers kept him in the OHL, NHL or AHL they didn't know what the heck to do with him. Low wasn't any better than Muckler and there whether he was screwed up as a 19 year old or a 21 year old the outcome would likely have been the same. He would've had a good rookie year and then a yo-yo second year which seemed to be par the course for the time.



Well at the end of the day we see stuff we like and don't like in prospects.I think Malhotra could've been a pretty good 20-25 goal scorer and frankly it wouldn't shock me to see him as a late bloomer in the regard. But the real key is that the Rangers weren't really stretching for him. Vancouver very nearly took him 4th, Calgary nearly took him 6th and I doubt he slips out of the top-10 that draft. Heck even the Avs were willing to part with two first round picks for him to grab him at the 6 spot.

Either way you cut it, Malhotra is the first prospect fans think of when they think of the Rangers NOT developing a young player the right way. That's sad.

Though I don't know about you but I can't believe that he was drafted 9 years ago.
Way to remind a guy how old he is.

I love the NHL draft, but each year they hold it I'm like this kid was born WHEN???

not this year, but the 2008 draft I think that kids born in 90 are eligable? I'm almost married longer than these kids have been alive.....now I have a headache

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03-21-2007, 10:09 PM
  #46
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Way to remind a guy how old he is.

I love the NHL draft, but each year they hold it I'm like this kid was born WHEN???

not this year, but the 2008 draft I think that kids born in 90 are eligable? I'm almost married longer than these kids have been alive.....now I have a headache
My daughter turns 19 this year. These kids drafted this year will be younger than my youngest child.

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03-22-2007, 12:31 AM
  #47
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As a hockey fan you look and the kids you remember seeing are now in their 30's, you remember that you wrote an article 9 years ago, it's all very surreal.

I mean I turn 29 this year which means it's almost 10 years ago I even started as an intern in the sport.

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03-22-2007, 12:57 AM
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I didn't want to make this it's own thread but I found out that you guys almost got Forsberg. If the trade went though it would have been Forsberg for Dubinsky plus a few other players on either side. Not sure what the other players were just those two.

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03-22-2007, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
As a hockey fan you look and the kids you remember seeing are now in their 30's, you remember that you wrote an article 9 years ago, it's all very surreal.
Holy crap, I remember one of your first article on HF about Stefan Cherneski! I don't know if that article is searchable, but let me quote from my memory: "When I learned that the Rangers have drafted Stefan Cherneski from Brandon Wheat Kings of WHL, I was jumping up and down..." or something to that extent.

I can't believe Kovalev was always The Kid, or JD's words A Good Kid is now 34 years old... And magnificent young Conn Smythe winner Leetch is 37... Wow.

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03-22-2007, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
Holy crap, I remember one of your first article on HF about Stefan Cherneski! I don't know if that article is searchable, but let me quote from my memory: "When I learned that the Rangers have drafted Stefan Cherneski from Brandon Wheat Kings of WHL, I was jumping up and down..." or something to that extent.

I can't believe Kovalev was always The Kid, or JD's words A Good Kid is now 34 years old... And magnificent young Conn Smythe winner Leetch is 37... Wow.
We all ahve those players who make us feel old.

In my mind Tony Amonte will always be 21, Kris King always 24ish, Ryan Smyth always 18.

Kind of weird to realize those guys are 36, 41 and 31 years old.

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