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Old
06-05-2014, 04:45 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The game summary is on page 89 of the January 12th edition. The 12th and 13th are both under that date. Mio left injured at 7:48 of the third period. Mio's loss.

Couldn't find anything more for the 23rd.
Oh, I hate when they do that (put two editions under the same date) - I'd never actually looked for that before, but now I'm going to start since the MG is one of my better Google sources.

Thanks on the info here! Odd that Mio left the game with a suspected fractured jaw, but was back in net two nights later.

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06-07-2014, 11:44 PM
  #77
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Anyone have access to the Winnipeg dailies?

So at one point, I had the 1980-81 Winnipeg goaltenders' totals lined up exactly against the official NHL record. Among them, Markus Mattsson's 3-21-4 record and Lindsay Middlebrook's 0-9-3 record (the Jets of this vintage were truly awful, largely because they were handcuffed by the NHL when they entered the league).

Which brings me to this game:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19800106

HSP has Mattsson playing the first seven minutes, with Middlebrook cleaning up (and taking the loss). I tried to dig in and find out exactly when Middlebrook replaced Mattsson, since it doesn't line up nicely with a goal (and since it'd be weird for a goalie to come out without allowing a goal unless there was an injury).

However, both the Montreal Gazette and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette mention only Mattsson (except in the boxscore), which suggests that he played most of the game. And the Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

Is more clear. On page B-1, says something to the effect of (it's garbled) Winnipeg coach Tom McVie changed goalies after Schutt's clincher, with Lindsay Middlebrook finishing up.

That suggests that Mattsson played the game (and got the loss), which screws up my totals for both goaltenders (above). Only one other game had them both play, and it was a tie, so it couldn't have been that HSP has two games off.

Anyone have any ideas on this one?

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06-08-2014, 02:33 PM
  #78
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One thing to add - when I enter the game exactly as HSP has it, with Middlebrook playing most of the game (and allowing the six goals), then both Mattsson (128) and Middlebrook's (65) season goals allowed totals match the NHL totals. If I change it to what the news summaries have, then they don't match (nor do the loss totals).

My current best guess is that the official NHL game box somehow transposed the goaltenders, and that this propagated into the official NHL statistics.

Alternatively, multiple newspapers having the story wrong could be the result of sloppy journalism (one guy prints the story wrong and others get it from them). Although back in 1980, there were multiple newspapers per city sending reporters to games, and it would be weird for both the Post-Gazette and the Press to get the goalies backwards.

I'd love to see any other contemporary sources that mention the goaltenders (either supporting or opposing sources). Also, if anyone has the 1981-82 Jets or Penguins media guides, those might help. I can tell you that the Sporting News Hockey Register 1981-82 matches the official NHL totals.

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06-09-2014, 11:27 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The early OHA stuff (pre-1910 or so) is still being researched. Kevin Slater is doing that year-by-year, and you can find his research published on blurb.ca if you're desperate to get it. A lot of the stuff you're looking for is in the SIHR database, but some years are incomplete.
Well I was hoping to get an OHA stat book that is similar to say, the NHL Records and Stats, if you get my drift.. that NHL stats book has the seasons, standings, playoff results and etc... that type of book I am interested in looking at for the OHA in one big book.. not sure as I do know of someone who has that book but am unable to contact that person due to the person's personal reasons.. ack..

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06-09-2014, 09:10 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
Well I was hoping to get an OHA stat book that is similar to say, the NHL Records and Stats, if you get my drift.. that NHL stats book has the seasons, standings, playoff results and etc... that type of book I am interested in looking at for the OHA in one big book.. not sure as I do know of someone who has that book but am unable to contact that person due to the person's personal reasons.. ack..
No such thing yet exists so far as I know.

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06-12-2014, 01:26 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The game summary is on page 89 of the January 12th edition. The 12th and 13th are both under that date.
This tip, by the way, is awesome! Typically when I do my newspaper streamings, as soon as I find the sports section I don't look any further. The Montreal Gazette appears to do this quite a bit (and there are also many dates that are mis-shelved).

Now if Google would make it so that you can rotate pages easily, my Gazette-reading would be much much better. I have a monitor that rotates, but then I get confused, so I've decided to just tilt my head and hope for the best.

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06-12-2014, 01:35 PM
  #82
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Multiple Stanley Cup captain Frank Tansey and his coverpoint defensive mate Frank Wall for the Stanley Cup champions Montreal Shamrocks are intriguing and whatever information one could provide on either or both of them would be welcomed and remembered!

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06-12-2014, 05:36 PM
  #83
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Montreal Gazette

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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
This tip, by the way, is awesome! Typically when I do my newspaper streamings, as soon as I find the sports section I don't look any further. The Montreal Gazette appears to do this quite a bit (and there are also many dates that are mis-shelved).

Now if Google would make it so that you can rotate pages easily, my Gazette-reading would be much much better. I have a monitor that rotates, but then I get confused, so I've decided to just tilt my head and hope for the best.
1950s and 1960s

Montréal Gazette was a morning paper with multiple editions per day. The first would hit the streets a bit after 10 PM the night before or prior to the game at the Forum ending, so if that edition was archieved you would not find the hockey summaries or even the final score. The last morning edition would hit the newspaper boxes and home delivery in time for people going to work, regular 9 to 5. This edition would have the scores for games ended by 11PM the night before and the summaries.

The Montreal Star was an afternoon paper hitting the street about 10-11 am with the Final edition appearing late afternoon. Such papers tended to have different headlines at certain times - November 22, 1963 being one example.

Google archives usually carries one random edition. Some of the microfilmed copies have distinct pages from two or more editions for the same date.

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06-12-2014, 09:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by IMLACHnME View Post
There have been at least three players who refused to play for the New York Rangers:

Red Kelly retired and Billy McNeill refused to join the Rangers, after they were traded to New York for Bill Gadsby and Eddie Shack.

Bert Olmstead refused to report to the Rangers when they selected him in the Intra-League Draft, after just having won the Stanley Cup with Toronto weeks earlier in 1962.

Are there other players who similarly refused to join the Rangers when traded to New York or otherwise becoming that team's property?
I'm not sure if this falls under the definition of what you're looking for, but what about Joe Murphy in the late 90s?

Worked out with the Rangers and were talking contract for several days. The day before Murphy was officially offered a contract, he walks out and signs a 1 year contract with the Bruins.

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08-06-2014, 08:35 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The game summary is on page 89 of the January 12th edition. The 12th and 13th are both under that date. Mio left injured at 7:48 of the third period. Mio's loss.

Couldn't find anything more for the 23rd.
From the Toronto Star, on the 12/23/1980 game - they note that Mio left with a shoulder injury "in the third period".

The Kings' fifth goal was scored during the third period - Mike Murphy at 7:30 of the third period. If Moog were in net during that time (the Star says that Mio was out for two minutes), then the loss would be Moog's. Since we've ruled out January 12, this has to be what happened (unless there's an error in the NHL statistics, which would not be unprecedented).

I'd still like official confirmation if anyone likes looking for things.

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08-06-2014, 08:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Anyone have access to the Winnipeg dailies?

So at one point, I had the 1980-81 Winnipeg goaltenders' totals lined up exactly against the official NHL record. Among them, Markus Mattsson's 3-21-4 record and Lindsay Middlebrook's 0-9-3 record (the Jets of this vintage were truly awful, largely because they were handcuffed by the NHL when they entered the league).

Which brings me to this game:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19800106

HSP has Mattsson playing the first seven minutes, with Middlebrook cleaning up (and taking the loss). I tried to dig in and find out exactly when Middlebrook replaced Mattsson, since it doesn't line up nicely with a goal (and since it'd be weird for a goalie to come out without allowing a goal unless there was an injury).

However, both the Montreal Gazette and Pittsburgh Post-Gazette mention only Mattsson (except in the boxscore), which suggests that he played most of the game. And the Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

Is more clear. On page B-1, says something to the effect of (it's garbled) Winnipeg coach Tom McVie changed goalies after Schutt's clincher, with Lindsay Middlebrook finishing up.

That suggests that Mattsson played the game (and got the loss), which screws up my totals for both goaltenders (above). Only one other game had them both play, and it was a tie, so it couldn't have been that HSP has two games off.

Anyone have any ideas on this one?
My current guess is still that the official NHL win-loss totals are wonked up for Middlebrook and for Mattsson. Thoughts?

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08-06-2014, 08:54 PM
  #87
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I'm also close to wrapping up the 1981-82 season game logs.

My only win-loss record discrepancy so far involves an extra loss for Doug Keans, and a missing loss for Mario Lessard.

My three candidates are (games that I currently have assigned as a loss to Keans, and believe that both played) are:

January 9, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810436

February 27, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810666

March 22, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810775

You'll note that HSP gives the loss to Lessard in the January 9 game, but the ordering of goalies and the shots faced suggest that (HSP believes) Lessard played the first two periods and Keans played the third. The fourth Toronto goal (in a 5-3 win) was scored by John Anderson in the third period.

The Toronto Star account implies that Lessard allowed the Anderson goal, but doesn't explicitly state it (it also doesn't mention that Keans played at all, other in the boxscore which suggests that the order was "Lessard, Keans").

So I know that the HSP account is wrong either in the order of goalies and shots faced, or in the loss assignment. Anyone have an alternate account of the game?

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08-25-2014, 03:18 PM
  #88
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There was talk about early NHL goalie tandems in other thread. One of them was Winkler-Chabot in New York Rangers first season. They only switched them once during game. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5053%2C8178242 . I remember reading the story about that and it was something like Winkler was bothered by too bright lights in Chicago Stadium (canīt find it now) .

The thing is that NHL stats gives Chabot 36 games and Winkler 8 games (he was traded ~mid-season) so thats total of 44 games. Iīm not math genius, but when there was total of 44 games played in season and they were swapped once that canīt be true. So is Chabot (it seems to be him) actually missing one GP from his totals? Or am I missing something?

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08-25-2014, 03:24 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
There was talk about early NHL goalie tandems in other thread. One of them was Winkler-Chabot in New York Rangers first season. They only switched them once during game. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5053%2C8178242 . I remember reading the story about that and it was something like Winkler was bothered by too bright lights in Chicago Stadium (canīt find it now) .

The thing is that NHL stats gives Chabot 36 games and Winkler 8 games (he was traded ~mid-season) so thats total of 44 games. Iīm not math genius, but when there was total of 44 games played in season and they were swapped once that canīt be true. So is Chabot (it seems to be him) actually missing one GP from his totals? Or am I missing something?
Off the top of my head: Maybe they recorded games differently back then? Whichever goalie played the majority of the minutes would get credited with the GP?

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08-25-2014, 03:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by kmad View Post
Off the top of my head: Maybe they recorded games differently back then? Whichever goalie played the majority of the minutes would get credited with the GP?
I was thinking something similar. That the starting goalie gets the GP. But those doesnīt fit with the earlier cases of goalie swaps. Both goalies did get GP credited.

I think there might be something wrong with St.Pats 1919-1920 goalie GP stats too. Ivan Mitchell might have too many games credited. Maybe it was so rare that they didnīt know how to deal with that .

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08-25-2014, 11:04 PM
  #91
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No, the switch simple isn't included in the rather spotty NHL records. None of the 4 games mentioned for goalie swaps in the 1919-20 season are reflected in the official NHL goalie stats.

The records do include some other swaps where skaters took over for injured goalies, or played while the goalie served a penalty. Darragh is included as penalty relief, and Mummery as an injury fill in (3 games, 142 minutes), in the 1919-20 season.

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08-26-2014, 12:00 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
No, the switch simple isn't included in the rather spotty NHL records. None of the 4 games mentioned for goalie swaps in the 1919-20 season are reflected in the official NHL goalie stats.

The records do include some other swaps where skaters took over for injured goalies, or played while the goalie served a penalty. Darragh is included as penalty relief, and Mummery as an injury fill in (3 games, 142 minutes), in the 1919-20 season.
I did mistake and actually looked total GP in season from 1917-1918 (what was the subject on the other thread) and not 1919-1920. My bad.

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08-26-2014, 11:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I'm also close to wrapping up the 1981-82 season game logs.

My only win-loss record discrepancy so far involves an extra loss for Doug Keans, and a missing loss for Mario Lessard.

My three candidates are (games that I currently have assigned as a loss to Keans, and believe that both played) are:

January 9, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810436

February 27, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810666

March 22, 1982
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19810775

You'll note that HSP gives the loss to Lessard in the January 9 game, but the ordering of goalies and the shots faced suggest that (HSP believes) Lessard played the first two periods and Keans played the third. The fourth Toronto goal (in a 5-3 win) was scored by John Anderson in the third period.

The Toronto Star account implies that Lessard allowed the Anderson goal, but doesn't explicitly state it (it also doesn't mention that Keans played at all, other in the boxscore which suggests that the order was "Lessard, Keans").

So I know that the HSP account is wrong either in the order of goalies and shots faced, or in the loss assignment. Anyone have an alternate account of the game?
I have a bit more on this - I went through week-by-week and compared the Kings' goaltender totals to the weekly (when available) Toronto Star summaries. I had a minutes played jump between March 15 and March 23.

Sure enough, I happen to have the Kings' 1982-83 media guide. Their goaltender totals against Minnesota:
Keans: 1 GP, 0 MP, 0 GA, 0-0-0 WLT
Lessard: 3 GP, 180 MP, 13 GA, 0-2-1 WLT

So it seems like the game in question is the March 22 game above (the media guide also says that Keans played zero minutes in that game).

Does anyone have access to a first-hand account of this game? When and why did Keans appear?

(I also now believe that the HSP account of the January 9th game should give the loss to Keans, not Lessard)


Last edited by Bear of Bad News: 08-28-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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09-02-2014, 10:40 PM
  #94
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Ah, it's great to be a civilian again.

I've completed my preliminary findings for the 1980-81 and 1981-82 seasons, and posted my outstanding issues here:

http://hockeygoalies.org/HSP19808182.docx

If anyone loves a good snipe hunt and has access to materials that I don't have, I'd love some help.

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09-03-2014, 11:38 AM
  #95
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Patience

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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Ah, it's great to be a civilian again.

I've completed my preliminary findings for the 1980-81 and 1981-82 seasons, and posted my outstanding issues here:

http://hockeygoalies.org/HSP19808182.docx

If anyone loves a good snipe hunt and has access to materials that I don't have, I'd love some help.
Bit of patience. A number of Canada's large libraries and archives are slowly making the leap from repository status to interactive, so the data will become available as time passes.

Will update about the BANQ as information becomes available.

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09-03-2014, 11:56 AM
  #96
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Bit of patience. A number of Canada's large libraries and archives are slowly making the leap from repository status to interactive, so the data will become available as time passes.

Will update about the BANQ as information becomes available.
Thanks - I'm hopeful. It's so nice to be able to have even anything online at this point; it sure beats sitting in a dusty microfilm room for hours on end (and compiling notes on graph paper in the pre-laptop days).

The top one on my wish list right now would be the Winnipeg Free Press, although it looks like they're part of a pay program (and it's a pay per page, not pay per time, which doesn't really fit my shotgun style of research).

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09-03-2014, 12:18 PM
  #97
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Multiple Stanley Cup captain Frank Tansey and his coverpoint defensive mate Frank Wall for the Stanley Cup champions Montreal Shamrocks are intriguing and whatever information one could provide on either or both of them would be welcomed and remembered!
Frank C. Tansey didn't play in the 1901 Stanley Cup challenge series against the Winnipeg Victorias, a series the Shamrocks lost, because of an "illness". His place was taken by Montreal Victorias Mike Grant.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=3634,2256376

In 1908 Tansey was shot in his left arm at Park Avenue in Montreal by a cigarmaker, Peter|Pietro Bruno.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=3634,2256376
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6255,3260758

Tansey scored 2 goals in 38 games with the Shamrocks in AHAC, CAHL and Stanley Cup challenge games, Wall scored 12 in 38. So Tansey was the "stay at home" guy, as it comes with the Point|Cover point positions.

Wall appears to have been acting as some kind of trainer for the Shamrocks in 1904.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=7025,6973102

Tansey apparently re-appeared with the Shamrocks in intermediate games in 1904.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=960,1595757

There's some personal info on Tansey in Coast to Coast: Hockey in Canada to the Second World War, edited by John Chi-Kit Wong.

http://books.google.se/books?id=P4xx...ntreal&f=false

It says Tansey was from a "prominent local political family". His father Bernard had been a city councillor as well as a lacrosse player with the Shamrock Lacrosse Club in the 1870s.



^ Tansey is standing third from left, Wall is standing second from right.


Last edited by the edler: 09-07-2014 at 10:34 AM.
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09-03-2014, 08:56 PM
  #98
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My current guess is still that the official NHL win-loss totals are wonked up for Middlebrook and for Mattsson. Thoughts?
Curtis Walker (who has written some great books on the history of the Jets) was able to clear up a lot of my Jets issues, including the above. The Free Press confirms the order of goaltenders as I understand it, and he also believes that the NHL win-loss totals are messed up for the pair.

It's plausible that the goaltenders were switched when sent into the league office.

This would be the second league wonk-up I've found (the first took away a Bob Froese loss in 1984-85, leaving him with a gaudy 13-1 record).

Anyhow, I've updated my "wish list" for 1980-81 and 1981-82 here:
http://hockeygoalies.org/HSP19808182.docx

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09-04-2014, 11:02 AM
  #99
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Updated further, with quite a bit of Islanders and Black Hawks minutia cleared up.

One interesting thing uncovered - I knew that Al Arbour and Mike Keenan both took advantage of sub goaltenders to gain an (undeserved) rest for their top lines. I didn't know that Glen Sonmor was on that list as well.


Last edited by Bear of Bad News: 09-04-2014 at 11:15 AM.
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09-27-2014, 02:05 PM
  #100
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Since my last note on 1980-81 and 1981-82, I've talked to a lot of people, done some more digging, and acquired more media guide sources.

My current list of issues, concerns, and questions is here:
http://hockeygoalies.org/HSP808182.zip

I've also included my raw Excel file data (which I find easier to look at, and you might too).

I'm still looking for help if you have interesting sources available to you. I do intend to publish preliminary results to my site tomorrow (and will also be able to do my other metrics, such as schedule strength, variability of results, and clutch playoff performance data).

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