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Old
06-15-2014, 07:00 PM
  #201
Troy McClure
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Eh, if the government giving poor people free stuff is what keeps the poor from rioting and robbing, then I'm not going to complain.

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06-15-2014, 07:02 PM
  #202
Mansfield
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Eh, if the government giving poor people free stuff is what keeps the poor from rioting and robbing, then I'm not going to complain.
Does it keep people from rioting and robbing?

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06-15-2014, 07:10 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
Does it keep people from rioting and robbing?
Not always no, but if you are interested in talking about rioting and robbing, I'm sure we can come to have an actual discussion on it. Unless, of course, you have no concern about rioting and robbing and it is affirmative action that has you most concerned.

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06-15-2014, 07:12 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Not always no, but if you are interested in talking about rioting and robbing, I'm sure we can come to have an actual discussion on it. Unless, of course, you have no concern about rioting and robbing and it is affirmative action that has you most concerned.
Has affirmative action prevented the first nations from rioting and robbing?

Perhaps a better question is: has affirmative action helped the first nations at all?

I think we're going around in circles at this point so I'm probably done. But my position can be summed up very simply.

- Affirmative action is ineffective.
- Affirmative action is inherently racist because it treats people differently based on the colour of their skin. This is a contradiction and therefore unsuitable to combat racism.

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06-15-2014, 07:30 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
I'm not sure what you mean here.
Sorry, re-visiting that paragraph. Yikes. Thank you for pointing that out. That came out as gobbledigook.


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I'd argue that a tradesman has no such right. If he's good at his job, he will naturally be given precedence, that he has earned. Having earned something is not being entitled to it.
ON the basest level, something that you earn and allowed to keep is an entitlement. The Little Red Hen certainly acts entitled when she is alone eating her bread, clucking at the Cat and the Dog, no? Some entitlement is good; some entitlement is bad. Someone deemed black or native have been neither Cat or Dog; they have never been asked to bake the bread (native) or if they have, they've been offered crumbs (black, Asian), Little Red Hen clucking at Little White Hen is like, well, being an entitled little prat, is it not?



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When people are given things they do not deserve, because of an implication that they are a victim, it saps their desire to work, their drive to be accountable for their own life. This is eminently obvious with the first nations in particular.
Speak for yourself buddy. What happens when you win the lottery? What happens when you are born into a wealthy family? What happens when you are born into a wealthy country?

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06-15-2014, 07:41 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
Has affirmative action prevented the first nations from rioting and robbing?

Perhaps a better question is: has affirmative action helped the first nations at all?

I think we're going around in circles at this point so I'm probably done. But my position can be summed up very simply.

- Affirmative action is ineffective.
- Affirmative action is inherently racist because it treats people differently based on the colour of their skin. This is a contradiction and therefore unsuitable to combat racism.
Affirmative action has helped provide an outlet for natives who want to escape the confines of the reserve. Affirmative action has helped blacks living in slumtowns and ghettoes to access education. If you want effectiveness, cutting it is going to go against your goal. If you want effective policy so that you can eliminate affirmative action (because below), then you have to have a go at righting the wrongs that do real harm.

Affirmative action is racist in that it recognises that a designation of races exist and that it can only remediate previous wrongs that were done using those designations. It is not effective in bridging over the wrongs that continue to occur.

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06-15-2014, 07:41 PM
  #207
Mansfield
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
ON the basest level, something that you earn and allowed to keep is an entitlement. The Little Red Hen certainly acts entitled when she is alone eating her bread, clucking at the Cat and the Dog, no? Some entitlement is good; some entitlement is bad. Someone deemed black or native have been neither Cat or Dog; they have never been asked to bake the bread (native) or if they have, they've been offered crumbs (black, Asian), Little Red Hen clucking at Little White Hen is like, well, being an entitled little prat, is it not?
I'm still not entirely sure I follow. I don't consider that entitlement, definitions aside - the little red hen took initiative to make something happen, and earned her reward. The cat and dog had the chance and did not.

Every person should be given a chance - and every person has a chance. There are no schools in Canada that do not allow people of a certain race (except for schools that don't allow whites, but I digress). If a minority wants to go to college, they have just as good a chance of getting in as a white person - as it should be.


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Speak for yourself buddy. What happens when you win the lottery?
One could argue that by virtue of making the effort to buy a ticket one has earned the lottery win. At any rate, it's such a minuscule number of people that for practical purposes it's irrelevant.

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What happens when you are born into a wealthy family? What happens when you are born into a wealthy country?
Luck of the draw, for one person - but based on years of hard work from family members or countrymen.

By the way, I'm not against affirmative action directed towards the poor, at least not in all instances. Helping the poor is a good thing, that people who are well off should try to do insomuch as it is effective. But poverty effects people of all races.

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06-15-2014, 07:43 PM
  #208
Xelebes
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Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
By the way, I'm not against affirmative action directed towards the poor, at least not in all instances. Helping the poor is a good thing, that people who are well off should try to do insomuch as it is effective. But poverty effects people of all races.
But poverty does not effect people of all races equally.

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06-15-2014, 07:44 PM
  #209
Mansfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Affirmative action has helped provide an outlet for natives who want to escape the confines of the reserve. Affirmative action has helped blacks living in slumtowns and ghettoes to access education. If you want effectiveness, cutting it is going to go against your goal. If you want effective policy so that you can eliminate affirmative action (because below), then you have to have a go at righting the wrongs that do real harm.
What exactly helps natives escape the confines of reserves? I'm all for it. The native population would be helped immensely if the reserves were scrapped in their entirety. (going back to our discussion about the indian act)

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Affirmative action is racist in that it recognises that a designation of races exist and that it can only remediate previous wrongs that were done using those designations. It is not effective in bridging over the wrongs that continue to occur.
Wrongs are in the past. Perhaps this is a fundamental philosophical difference between you and I, but I believe that people who dwell on the past and try to fix it can never move forward. No degree of affirmative action is ever going to nullify the terrible atrocities committed against the first nations in canada. But the current system of managing native affairs is an atrocity almost as bad.

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06-15-2014, 07:50 PM
  #210
Xelebes
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If you believe the wrongs are in the past, then it is willful ignorance on your part.

There may be no slavery in US; there may be no disenfranchisement in Canada or US; there may be no forced internment for puposes of education in Canada or US. But if that is all you think racism is, then you are either very nave or you are being willfully ignorant.

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06-15-2014, 07:52 PM
  #211
Mansfield
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
But poverty does not effect people of all races equally.
But it does effect all races - and as such the fix, whatever it may be, can affect all races.

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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
If you believe the wrongs are in the past, then it is willful ignorance on your part.

There may be no slavery in US; there may be no disenfranchisement in Canada or US; there may be no forced internment for puposes of education in Canada or US. But if that is all you think racism is, then you are either very nave or you are being willfully ignorant.
Racism as a whole is not in the past. Systemic, government sanctioned racism (the kind the government should fix) is almost entirely in the past.

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