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Old
03-22-2007, 08:25 AM
  #76
FacelessButcher
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
Why is it WRONG to discuss upgrading other areas of our team that aren't our number 1 weakness, espically when our offense is ranked 29th in hockey??? Torres - Stoll - Pisani is our 2nd LINE??? Ouch, not looking good for next season!
I don't think Gomez is the Panacea for all that ails us, our offensive problems I think are largely due to a lack of sustained offensive pressure. In simpler terms the puck spent way too much time in our zone and not enough time in the other teams zone. To me the solution for that is a puck moving defense man who can mash against the top opposing players (hopefully stopping the downlow cycle and pressure that we can't seem to deal with) and move the puck out effectively starting the transition game. This kind of defense man costs a lot of money in today's NHL and it's quite apparent to me atleast, that signing Gomez in the $5.5 million range will probably hamstring our ability to acquire a top tier UFA defense man.

P.S. if your rebuttal is trade Horcoff for a bag of pucks to free up cap space please save it for someone else.

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03-22-2007, 05:00 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FacelessButcher View Post
I don't think Gomez is the Panacea for all that ails us, our offensive problems I think are largely due to a lack of sustained offensive pressure. In simpler terms the puck spent way too much time in our zone and not enough time in the other teams zone. To me the solution for that is a puck moving defense man who can mash against the top opposing players (hopefully stopping the downlow cycle and pressure that we can't seem to deal with) and move the puck out effectively starting the transition game. This kind of defense man costs a lot of money in today's NHL and it's quite apparent to me atleast, that signing Gomez in the $5.5 million range will probably hamstring our ability to acquire a top tier UFA defense man.

P.S. if your rebuttal is trade Horcoff for a bag of pucks to free up cap space please save it for someone else.
Who said trade Horcoff for "a bag of pucks"???????? I didn't, I said we could always deal a centre. We could sign a top offensive guy(like Gomez), we could get a top d-man(maybe through UFA, more then likely through a deal). Torres and Smith probably gets us Redden at the draft. This deal would only add 3.5 mil(about) to our payroll. We also have a ton of other young players/prospects that we could deal, or have you not checked the roster lately??? Yeah, the lack of a great puckmoving d-man like Pronger was hurt our offense this year, guess what, so only having one setup man for 5 or 6 shoot first guys. Sometimes you have to simplify things man, the last time I checked, one d-man isn't the one making all the passes for the team. The 1986 version of Paul Coffey isn't going to be signed in the offseason, nor is anyone CLOSE to him, so trust me man one d-man(even Pronger)isn't going to fully transform this offense. I'm not saying it won't help, but we need a lot more. Gomez and Redden adding 12.5 million would be a very hard hit to take(and of course we would need to move some salary), and yes both guys would be overpaid, but they are the two guys that will probably be availible that would kick start our offense from 29th to a top 10 for sure, and likely a top 5. Why is it that a great passer in our own zone is going to transform our offense but one up front won't do anything??? Also, you want a TRUE number 1 d-man that can match up against the other teams best and be a great puck mover....well the player that's kind of close to that on the UFA market is Timmonen and I don't think anyone says "wow, that Kimmo, what a shutdown man".

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03-22-2007, 05:09 PM
  #78
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I would not give up Torres for Redden unless Redden signs an extension beforehand.

We can lock up Raffi right now for a good number of seasons for cheap. Might as well cash in on a player having a bad contract year, because we all know Horcoff + Pisani sure cashed in at our expense for great contract seasons and Smyth was trying to do the same.

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03-22-2007, 05:31 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RanfordIsGod View Post
Hands down I would take Gomez over Smytty... and Smytty is my fave player. Thats like asking would I rather have Cory Cross or Jaro Spacek. Kari Takko over Bill Ranford. Steve Kelly over Shane Doan. Gomez... (if he isn't already) is close to being an ELITE talent. Smytty is a GOOD grinding power foward who is dynamic within 2 feet of the net. Put Gomez with Lupes... LIGHTS OUT. And is there ANY evidence about his character being poor... i have NEVER heard anything
What's wrong with Kari Takko?

-Takko

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03-22-2007, 05:38 PM
  #80
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Kari Takko ... wow, that name alone takes me back.

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03-22-2007, 05:54 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I would not give up Torres for Redden unless Redden signs an extension beforehand.

We can lock up Raffi right now for a good number of seasons for cheap. Might as well cash in on a player having a bad contract year, because we all know Horcoff + Pisani sure cashed in at our expense for great contract seasons and Smyth was trying to do the same.
I agree with this 100% and if Lowe did land Redden in a deal I would think that's the first thing he would look to do. Redden would be willing to sign here long term, comming off an extremely up and down season I'm guessing if Lowe gave him a 3 year extension at the same price Redden would sign it. I don't like thinking about how Torres will do in a different system with a linemate like a Comrie or Spezza because he could turn into that 30+ goal guy we all know he's capbable of becoming.

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03-22-2007, 09:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
Who said trade Horcoff for "a bag of pucks"???????? I didn't, I said we could always deal a centre. We could sign a top offensive guy(like Gomez), we could get a top d-man(maybe through UFA, more then likely through a deal). Torres and Smith probably gets us Redden at the draft. This deal would only add 3.5 mil(about) to our payroll. We also have a ton of other young players/prospects that we could deal, or have you not checked the roster lately??? Yeah, the lack of a great puckmoving d-man like Pronger was hurt our offense this year, guess what, so only having one setup man for 5 or 6 shoot first guys. Sometimes you have to simplify things man, the last time I checked, one d-man isn't the one making all the passes for the team. The 1986 version of Paul Coffey isn't going to be signed in the offseason, nor is anyone CLOSE to him, so trust me man one d-man(even Pronger)isn't going to fully transform this offense. I'm not saying it won't help, but we need a lot more. Gomez and Redden adding 12.5 million would be a very hard hit to take(and of course we would need to move some salary), and yes both guys would be overpaid, but they are the two guys that will probably be availible that would kick start our offense from 29th to a top 10 for sure, and likely a top 5. Why is it that a great passer in our own zone is going to transform our offense but one up front won't do anything??? Also, you want a TRUE number 1 d-man that can match up against the other teams best and be a great puck mover....well the player that's kind of close to that on the UFA market is Timmonen and I don't think anyone says "wow, that Kimmo, what a shutdown man".
I think we can summarize this arguement into you want the moon and the stars, and I hope were lucky enough to just acquire the moon.

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03-22-2007, 11:06 PM
  #83
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gomez is a star.. this team needs to go after a star to be respectable next season..

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03-23-2007, 01:58 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by FacelessButcher View Post
I think we can summarize this arguement into you want the moon and the stars, and I hope were lucky enough to just acquire the moon.
HAHA! I just think this would be the UFA we target, and we'll target Redden through a trade. The thing is if Redden is made availible, I have ZERO doubt the Oil will get him(and likely extend his deal too), Gomez is unlikely to land here, but he's the type of guy the Oiler brass would just love. If you could put Gomez with Torres and Lupul, and if we were to land Hartnell then put him with Horcoff and Hemsky, that's an impressive top 6, along with Redden and Smith anchoring our blueline as the top pairing....I know, I know, the moon and the stars, but it's not like it COULDN'T happen

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03-23-2007, 02:46 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TheGreatone94 View Post
Briere brings more in a lot of different areas. First, he is a way, way, waaaaaay better goal scorer than Gomez. That is no contest. From our NO 1 Center, we would need a guy capable of atleast 30+ goals. As of right now, Briere has 29 goals and 57 assists for 86 points and a plus 17. Gomez has 11 goals and 45 assists for 56 points and a +7. They are both playing with the same level of linemates, although many will argue that Gomez's linemates are better than Briere's. There is no question who I would take, and many others out there as well.
Yeah, Gomez is a good offensive player but I think it's important to note that he's only scored 20 goals in his career *once*. The best comparable to Gomez - from what I've heard - is Weight, but even Dougie cracked the 20 goal barrier half a dozen times.

Gomez is a smoove passer, and he's well-rounded, but I see him as more of the player who can be a really effective component in the right offense - like Weighter, Koivu, Nylander, Stillman.

Briere, on the other hand, has become a catalyst.

Not that I get to see a lot of Jersey.

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03-23-2007, 04:54 AM
  #86
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Scott Gomez is a good playmaker but the Oilers need goal scoring. We already have a 1st line playmaker in Ales Hemsky. We need a player who is capable of putting up 30-35 goals and 45-50 assists, especially now that Smyth is gone. ex) Hossa, Havlat, Briere, Jokinen, Marleau

If you look at the panthers they just lost Bertuzzi, failed to make the playoffs again! Is there a possibility of Jokinen being traded? Who would we have to part with to get him here?

TSN scouting report on Olli Jokinen
Assets- Is a big presence up the middle and a good face-off man. Has above-average hands and the instincts of a natural goal-scorer. Can play the wing in a pinch.

Flaw- Is a better scorer than playmaker, which makes him a little predictable over the long haul. Must continue to grow as a team leader.

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03-23-2007, 06:00 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggio View Post
Scott Gomez is a good playmaker but the Oilers need goal scoring. We already have a 1st line playmaker in Ales Hemsky. We need a player who is capable of putting up 30-35 goals and 45-50 assists, especially now that Smyth is gone. ex) Hossa, Havlat, Briere, Jokinen, Marleau

If you look at the panthers they just lost Bertuzzi, failed to make the playoffs again! Is there a possibility of Jokinen being traded? Who would we have to part with to get him here?

TSN scouting report on Olli Jokinen
Assets- Is a big presence up the middle and a good face-off man. Has above-average hands and the instincts of a natural goal-scorer. Can play the wing in a pinch.

Flaw- Is a better scorer than playmaker, which makes him a little predictable over the long haul. Must continue to grow as a team leader.
I will point this out one more time. Shooters need guys to get them the puck. Hemsky is a playmaker and we don't have another one like him. Why is it that his line has always been the best line throughout the season? Lupul, Sykora, Pisani, Torres, Stoll, and Horcoff all NEED playmakers to play with them. Gomez makes this team SO MUCH BETTER. Briere would too don't get me wrong, but what you seem to be suggesting is that we need another shoot first guy, we don't, we're overstocked in that area. We have 2 guys that COULD be good playmakers for us next season(Nilsson and Pouliot), but they won't be anywhere near the level of a Gomez for at least a year or two. IMO Gomez fits a little bit better in our system then Briere because A)it's simular to what he plays in Jersey B)we have a guy in Lupul that could possibly help take Gomez to the next level C)the flip side of that, he would more then likely turn Lupul into that 30-40 goal guy that he's capable of being....if Cheechoo can get 56, Lupul can get 45 playing along side Gomez D)if you examine the strengths and weakness of our offense, our biggest strength is that we have a ton of guys that have GREAT shots, and one of our biggest weaknesses is that they only got one guy that is a great playmaker that can utilize that strength. And finally E)the Oiler brass would love a Gomez type game more then a Briere type game.....Gomez plays a little better defensivly, is 2 years younger, MIGHT cost less, and has 2 Cup rings.

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03-23-2007, 12:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
I will point this out one more time. Shooters need guys to get them the puck. Hemsky is a playmaker and we don't have another one like him. Why is it that his line has always been the best line throughout the season? Lupul, Sykora, Pisani, Torres, Stoll, and Horcoff all NEED playmakers to play with them. Gomez makes this team SO MUCH BETTER. Briere would too don't get me wrong, but what you seem to be suggesting is that we need another shoot first guy, we don't, we're overstocked in that area. We have 2 guys that COULD be good playmakers for us next season(Nilsson and Pouliot), but they won't be anywhere near the level of a Gomez for at least a year or two. IMO Gomez fits a little bit better in our system then Briere because A)it's simular to what he plays in Jersey B)we have a guy in Lupul that could possibly help take Gomez to the next level C)the flip side of that, he would more then likely turn Lupul into that 30-40 goal guy that he's capable of being....if Cheechoo can get 56, Lupul can get 45 playing along side Gomez D)if you examine the strengths and weakness of our offense, our biggest strength is that we have a ton of guys that have GREAT shots, and one of our biggest weaknesses is that they only got one guy that is a great playmaker that can utilize that strength. And finally E)the Oiler brass would love a Gomez type game more then a Briere type game.....Gomez plays a little better defensivly, is 2 years younger, MIGHT cost less, and has 2 Cup rings.
With all do respect, Torres, Lupul, Horcoff, & Pisani are all very far from establishing themselves as 'one-shot scorers'. I believe the posters here are suggesting we get a bonafide one-shot scorer. We tried Hemsky with Torres, Horcoff & Lupul this year, but they blew it, it's time to face the fact that they aren't one-shot scorers, atleast not yet. Having a guy like Kariya (or I guess Jokinen, I havn't seen him enough to judge what kind of player he is) would ensure consistency in our top line, something we've sorely missed this season.
With that said, it is still my opinion that we need both a #1C and #1 LW, and in my ideal world, Kariya + Gomez/Briere.

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03-24-2007, 01:23 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
With all do respect, Torres, Lupul, Horcoff, & Pisani are all very far from establishing themselves as 'one-shot scorers'. I believe the posters here are suggesting we get a bonafide one-shot scorer. We tried Hemsky with Torres, Horcoff & Lupul this year, but they blew it, it's time to face the fact that they aren't one-shot scorers, atleast not yet. Having a guy like Kariya (or I guess Jokinen, I havn't seen him enough to judge what kind of player he is) would ensure consistency in our top line, something we've sorely missed this season.
With that said, it is still my opinion that we need both a #1C and #1 LW, and in my ideal world, Kariya + Gomez/Briere.

Exactly! Hemsky is the face of the franchise and he's playing with Horcoff and Pisani.
We need to surround Hemsky with a talent either equal to his ability if not better. Look at the top players in the NHL, they all have capable partner to play alongside.

Spezza Heatley
Lecavalier St.Louis
Gaborik Demitra
Datysuk Zetterberg
Semin Ovechkin
Sedin Sedin
Tanguay Iglina
Gomez-Elias
Hossa-Kovalachuk


Kariya would be a good signing but I think I prefer to upgrade down the middle.

Jokinen would be the perfect fit because he can play 2way hockey and is more capable of putting the puck in the back of the net than Horcoff. GP74 35 43 78 +13 not bad considering he playing in Florida with???


Brad Richards is another guy who we could trade for but I don't like his contract. He's overpaid relative to his point’s production although there are a lot of intangibles that come along with his game.


1. Acquire a 1st line LW or C (preferably center)- package a trade involving Horcoff.
2. A playmaker that Lupul can play with ex) Whitney, Perrault
3. Top 4 Defensive men- Markov

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03-25-2007, 04:34 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
With all do respect, Torres, Lupul, Horcoff, & Pisani are all very far from establishing themselves as 'one-shot scorers'. I believe the posters here are suggesting we get a bonafide one-shot scorer. We tried Hemsky with Torres, Horcoff & Lupul this year, but they blew it, it's time to face the fact that they aren't one-shot scorers, atleast not yet. Having a guy like Kariya (or I guess Jokinen, I havn't seen him enough to judge what kind of player he is) would ensure consistency in our top line, something we've sorely missed this season.
With that said, it is still my opinion that we need both a #1C and #1 LW, and in my ideal world, Kariya + Gomez/Briere.
Don't get me wrong here, I always respect your opinion Bergeron(because it usually is the same as mine!), but the players you want are playmakers....don't you think they make those guys a lot better players(those guys being Torres, Lupul, Horcoff, and Pisani)??? Some people are sounding like bringing in a Bill Guerin or Brendan Shanahan would make us better.....yeah, but not a lot better because we only got one guy that's a pure passer, where if you gave these guys another setup man, you would be bringing in all his offense AND he would make most of the guys we currently have better as well. IMO Gomez would make Lupul a 30-40 goal guy NEXT SEASON. I'm not a big Horcoff fan, but he was great when put with Hemsky....he needed Smyth on the other side as well, but still. Hemsky proved how crucial it is to have pure playmakers....and Gomez is also good defensivly. Briere would be great too, but the whole point of this thread was me stating that Gomez would be the guy the OILERS BRASS would target. I PERSONALLY don't care which one of Briere or Gomez we may get, either way if we landed one of them I would be ESTATIC! Briere is more of a leader but he's had a lot of injury problems in the past, and Gomez is 2 years younger and MIGHT be a bit cheaper.

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03-25-2007, 04:37 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Baggio View Post
Exactly! Hemsky is the face of the franchise and he's playing with Horcoff and Pisani.
We need to surround Hemsky with a talent either equal to his ability if not better. Look at the top players in the NHL, they all have capable partner to play alongside.

Spezza Heatley
Lecavalier St.Louis
Gaborik Demitra
Datysuk Zetterberg
Semin Ovechkin
Sedin Sedin
Tanguay Iglina
Gomez-Elias
Hossa-Kovalachuk


Kariya would be a good signing but I think I prefer to upgrade down the middle.

Jokinen would be the perfect fit because he can play 2way hockey and is more capable of putting the puck in the back of the net than Horcoff. GP74 35 43 78 +13 not bad considering he playing in Florida with???


Brad Richards is another guy who we could trade for but I don't like his contract. He's overpaid relative to his point’s production although there are a lot of intangibles that come along with his game.


1. Acquire a 1st line LW or C (preferably center)- package a trade involving Horcoff.
2. A playmaker that Lupul can play with ex) Whitney, Perrault
3. Top 4 Defensive men- Markov
So you want a first line centre, but you don't want Gomez? You want a dynamic duo, but you don't think Gomez and Lupul could be that duo??? I know I'm going to take a lot of heat here for saying this, but if we could get those two together we would have our dynamic duo, and you could put Hemsky back with Sykora(should we re-sign him), and we have another deadly duo back together with them two.

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03-25-2007, 04:48 AM
  #92
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Sykora Gomez Hemsky

Would be an interesting line, especailly since they've played together before.

How much do you figure Gomez will command though? His price might affordable given his off year, but that could mean also that New Jersey simply retains him.

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03-25-2007, 05:05 AM
  #93
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I think Gomez will command somewhere between 5.5 and 6 mil a year FROM US. Something to keep in mind, while defensmen got overpaid last summer, forwards didn't(namely Marc Savard, who's in the same catagory as Gomez, Briere, and Drury only got 4 mil a season). I kind of don't think Jersey will re-invest in Gomez because they've got guys there that they MIGHT think could step up and take his role(namely moving Zach Parise from the wing back to centre). I believe they'll be more interested in re-signing Rafalski and maybe adding another big name d-man(maybe Andrei Markov). I wouldn't put Gomez and Hemsky together though, that kind of eliminates the purpose of signing him! Gomez would need to be with Lupul for sure, and maybe Torres.

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03-25-2007, 05:13 AM
  #94
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I agree with Gomez being a good fit for you guys. I think that would make you guys pretty strong down the middle if you could add someone like him to help dish the puck out to a guy like Hemmer.
That would be a pretty solid top two centers in Gomez and Horcoff.

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03-25-2007, 11:08 PM
  #95
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Don't get me wrong here, I always respect your opinion Bergeron(because it usually is the same as mine!), but the players you want are playmakers
Kariya a playmaker? He has .45 goals per game over his career. Lets look at perhaps the greatest goal-scorer of our day, Brett Hull. He's got .58. That's not a huge difference. Kariya is definetly a goal-scorer before he's a play-maker. Jokinen had 38 goals last year, 36 so far this year. Briere has 31 goals this year even when he is a playmaker. Trust me, those guys would have no problem shooting when Hemsky's dishing them the puck..


Quote:
IMO Gomez would make Lupul a 30-40 goal guy NEXT SEASON.
Why couldn't Hemsky do that this season? Don't get me wrong, I think Lupul does have the potential to be a 30+ goal scorer, but telling me that Gomez is capable of doing it when Hemsky wasn't is a stretch.

Quote:
I'm not a big Horcoff fan, but he was great when put with Hemsky....he needed Smyth on the other side as well, but still.
Don't get me started on how big of a point-leach Horcoff is. It just sets me right off.

Quote:
Hemsky proved how crucial it is to have pure playmakers....and Gomez is also good defensivly. Briere would be great too, but the whole point of this thread was me stating that Gomez would be the guy the OILERS BRASS would target. I PERSONALLY don't care which one of Briere or Gomez we may get, either way if we landed one of them I would be ESTATIC! Briere is more of a leader but he's had a lot of injury problems in the past, and Gomez is 2 years younger and MIGHT be a bit cheaper.
I got no problem with that.

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03-25-2007, 11:39 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Bergeron47 View Post
Kariya a playmaker? He has .45 goals per game over his career. Lets look at perhaps the greatest goal-scorer of our day, Brett Hull. He's got .58. That's not a huge difference. Kariya is definetly a goal-scorer before he's a play-maker. Jokinen had 38 goals last year, 36 so far this year. Briere has 31 goals this year even when he is a playmaker. Trust me, those guys would have no problem shooting when Hemsky's dishing them the puck.
Well Kariya is thought of as a playmaker, espically since about 2003:
2002-2003 Anaheim Mighty Ducks NHL 82 25 56 81
2003-04 Colorado Avalanche NHL 51 11 25 36
2005-06 Nashville Predators NHL 82 31 54 85
2006-07 Nashville Predators NHL 76 23 49 72

Having said that, yeah, he's not like Hemsky.....he knows how to shoot. But we don't need a guy for Hemsky, we've got a lot of them, we just have to settle with the right guys. With Kariya again it's the same as Briere, I would be thrilled to get him. I prefer Gomez over Kariya, and I believe the Oiler brass will prefer Gomez over all the other UFA's(and keep in mind I also believe they'll deal for Redden so don't tell me how we need to get a d-man for those of you who have tried to jump on me for this a million times over in this thread). And Lupul would be perfect with Hemsky, but they need to give him a little time to get used to playing both with Hemsky, and the LW. It is awkward to play your off wing at the start. I believe Lupul - Sykora - Hemsky only played together for 3 or 4 games this season, and on the Saturday night game vs Detroit in October they were awesome together. Of course they weren't good defensivly so they got broke up, but I still would have kept them together, just be cautious of who your d pairing is out there while they're on the ice, and who they're playing against. I know I know people "soft minutes". Every other team has lines like this, but we can't.


Last edited by Zach and Slater: 03-25-2007 at 11:45 PM.
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03-26-2007, 01:27 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
IMO Gomez would make Lupul a 30-40 goal guy NEXT SEASON. .
Only Lupul can make Lupul a 30-40 goal scorer next season.

Briere would do more for the Oilers in the W column than would Gomez. Ultimately, that is what matters.

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03-26-2007, 01:25 PM
  #98
Zach and Slater
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Only Lupul can make Lupul a 30-40 goal scorer next season.

Briere would do more for the Oilers in the W column than would Gomez. Ultimately, that is what matters.
ONCE AGAIN, go to the start of the thread.....I didn't say Gomez is my choice, I said he would likely be the Oilers brass choice. I would be happy with either one of Gomez or Briere. I think Briere MIGHT make us a better team too.....if he can stay healthy because this year is a first.

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