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Crosby vs. Claude Lemieux... or Fedorov

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06-15-2014, 11:56 AM
  #276
TAnnala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Crosby's teams are far deeper than Bourque's Bruins ever were.
But Williams has made his teams push over the top while Crosby has been the biggest reason the Pens haven't won more than one?

I can't help, but to feel that there is some kind of bias against Crosby going on. I am by no means a fan of Crosby. I actually enjoyed the fact that he struggled this playoffs. I think he really often gets overrated and I especially hate it when this happens in expense of older stars.

But if we are seriously discussing here about Williams vs Crosby, well there is obviously a bias going on. Cause for every single person who is even trying to be objective, the difference between Williams and Crosby doesn't need explaining.

You say that International play and playoffs are important to you, more so than NHL regular season. That is a fair position to take. I like it especially cause it takes the non-NHL players in to account too. There is a lot of good hockey going on besides NHL.

How would you rate Selanne? Without his cup, and we all can agree that while he wasn't a passenger on that cup he wasn't the driving force, we would be labeling him in the same mold as Thornton. But, Selanne is arguably one of the best international players of his time. Kind of a paradox, don't you think?

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06-15-2014, 12:01 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What makes a "better player"? A player most likely to get you the Cup, I imagine. Not a player most likely to pile up RS points.
Without RS points players don't get to play for the cup.

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06-15-2014, 01:17 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Strawman. Zero relevance in determining whether a player has been better or worse than another in the outlined situation. This is a biased position to argue from.
Pot meet kettle.

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As for Malkin, he deserved the Conn Smythe but to paint Crosby's PO's that year as anything other than the 2nd best since Sakic's and dismiss Detroit's defensive strategy is ridiculous. The previous year it was Malkin playing the "choker" role in the SCF and Crosby producing. Those two years cancel each other out. Other than that, Malkin, not surprisingly as other elites show the same pattern, hasn't produced as well in lost series vs. winning series.
No, they don't cancel out. One performance put a Ring on both their fingers and his name on the Conn, the other did neither.
There is no canceling, sorry.
And what's the excuse this past season? Crosby even had Malkin on his line for a good deal of it and still nothing. Is there even a question of who was better against the Jackets and Rangers this year?

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Let me ask you what type of PO performance deserves to be given attention and highlighted?
One that finishes strong. Not one that fizzles at the end everytime.

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One where an overwhelming great offensive performance gives the appearance of winning a series? Crosby has more of those than any other current player.
Yes sir, Crosby does a hell of a job beating up teams like the Sens and Isles, piling up the easy points.

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Or a playoff performance in a lost series that wasn't any worse than any other current and past elite players with similar playoff history's have had themselves?
Oh, there isn't a player out there past or present that hasn't had a below average or poor playoff/playoff series at one time or another but I don't know of a single one of them that is being called one of the best PO performers of today or that is already being touted among the best ever playoff performer, that has consistently finished in the playoffs as poorly as Crosby has.

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There seems to be a double standard. You don't recognize Crosby as the best player in the game because other players have matched or maybe bettered his best seasons while ignoring that these same players are no where near as consistent.
I do recognize him as the best player in the game, he has been more consistent than anyone else but he hasn't held that title on per season basis either and sometimes he has quite simply ended up with that title some seasons more by default.

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But you want to make the case that Crosby despite being the active career leader in playoff PPG isn't as great as that would indicate because he "chokes" in series lost even though he really has been no worse than other elite players.
No no, you're the one that wants it both ways. He is the career leader in PO PpG but that career leading PpG has taken a complete **** to finish off every single playoffs he has been in.
That 55% drop in production to finish off the playoffs makes it even worse.
Guys like Yzerman or Fedorov are going from averaging around 6-7 points a series down to 5-6 points in finishing series.
Crosby is going from 9-10 points down to 4.
He piles up the points in the early rounds against lesser opponents better than Feds did but then he falls below what Feds was able to do vs the tougher opponents in the later rounds. Factor in the huge gap defensively between the two and there really shouldn't be a question who should get the nod for this thread title.

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Either those players are "chokers" too or Crosby gets the recognized for his offensive production without any qualification.
Again, there's a big difference between losing 10% of ones production and losing 55%.
You want to keep bandying around his career PO PpG, I'm going to keep asking what happens to that vaunted PpG when the rubber meets the road. 55% is a HUGE number!!!

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06-15-2014, 01:18 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by K Fleur View Post
Without RS points players don't get to play for the cup.
So say that then. Crosby is Great at getting his teams to the hump and terrible at actually getting them over it.

Glad we're agreed

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06-15-2014, 01:21 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
So say that then. Crosby is Great at getting his teams to the hump and terrible at actually getting them over it.

Glad we're agreed
Right this moment, yeah. He hasn't really done the job and that is a legitimate knock on him.

But in his younger career, Crosby was really good at doing both. It takes a special kind of player to do that.

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06-15-2014, 03:24 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
So say that then. Crosby is Great at getting his teams to the hump and terrible at actually getting them over it.

Glad we're agreed
Yeah no I don't really agree with any of your "points".

You won't find me claiming Crosby has been the best PO performer of his generation, but last I checked Crosby has won the cup scoring 15 goals in that run, the most by a player since 1996 IIRC. Yeah his finals that year wasn't great, but he was playing against peak Zetterberg the best playoff player of this generation IMO.

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06-15-2014, 03:42 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Who would you rather have in these playoffs?

In the last four playoffs Crosby has not even been in the top five players in the world, let alone #1.
Well you are right he hasn't been the top guy in the playoffs in the last 4 years (his weakest time period BTW but let's take a close look at how bad he actually was.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

22nd in raw points but then again the top scorer played in double the games so that's team driven a bit.

PPG he is 4th, which is really lousy right?

Once again it's only part of the picture we outlined earlier how he is the #1 scoring player in the playoffs versus all other in his career.

Both in raw scoring and PPG he is #1.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

So the question is why are people focused on the smaller picture and ignoring the big picture, larger sample ect?

Might it be bias?

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06-15-2014, 03:53 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
These playoffs, Williams of course. He had better stretch of games. Which one is better player tough? I think we both know the answer to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What makes a "better player"? A player most likely to get you the Cup, I imagine. Not a player most likely to pile up RS points.
Seriously does anyone think that Jason Williams and Crosby switching team, that Williams will win a Conn Smythe with the Pens?

The suggestion is beyond bizarre.

Teams win cups not Conn smythe winners who plays under 17 MPG in the playoffs

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06-15-2014, 05:08 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Seriously does anyone think that Jason Williams and Crosby switching team, that Williams will win a Conn Smythe with the Pens?

The suggestion is beyond bizarre.

Teams win cups not Conn smythe winners who plays under 17 MPG in the playoffs
That IS a terrible fuel consumption rate


Sorry, I'm assuming autocorrect got you and I couldn't help it.

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06-15-2014, 06:23 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Seriously does anyone think that Jason Williams and Crosby switching team, that Williams will win a Conn Smythe with the Pens?

The suggestion is beyond bizarre.

Teams win cups not Conn smythe winners who plays under 17 MPG in the playoffs
I can't believe it. I am seriously having a debate on which one is the better player, Sidney Crosby or Justin Williams. I have seen my fair share of controversial opinions. But when you are debating Crosby over Williams, there is just something shady going on.

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06-15-2014, 09:22 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by K Fleur View Post
Without RS points players don't get to play for the cup.
Ask the LA Kings.

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I can't believe it. I am seriously having a debate on which one is the better player, Sidney Crosby or Justin Williams. I have seen my fair share of controversial opinions. But when you are debating Crosby over Williams, there is just something shady going on.
That's because you are going based on regular season (where points and awards lie). In playoffs one of these players has been SERIOUSLY under-delivering for some time now, while the other just won the Cup and the MVP on the grittiest, most confident, most clutch team I ever saw.


Last edited by Sentinel: 06-15-2014 at 09:30 PM.
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06-15-2014, 09:26 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Seriously does anyone think that Jason Williams and Crosby switching team, that Williams will win a Conn Smythe with the Pens?

The suggestion is beyond bizarre.
Not at all. I can totally see Williams winning Game 7 against the Rangers, given his history. Then comes Priceless Montreal, and Pens probably bury them as well. In the finals they probably lose to the Kings anyway, but Crosby certainly loses Conn Smythe to either Kopitar, Quick, or Doughty.

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06-15-2014, 09:32 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Ask the LA Kings.
The Kings have 1 player in the top 20 of points for the season, but they have arguably the deepest core of responsible two way forwards in the NHL, a stud defenseman , and an outstanding goaltender. Most teams are not built this well.

And yeah I'm not going to continue to debate with a guy who is suggesting Justin Williams is a better player than Sidney Crosby. The bias is to strong with you.

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06-15-2014, 10:04 PM
  #289
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Feel free to start a Sidney Crosby vs Justin Williams poll in the polls section and see how long it takes before it gets lopsided

On the HISTORY board, let's try to stay away from comparing the current level of play of two active players

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06-16-2014, 07:24 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Pot meet kettle.
I'm not the one holding Crosby to a different standard than any other player. Measured against other elite current and past offensive players, Crosby's performance in your specific sample size is similar.

Again, if you want to call Crosby a choker or a failure then put the same label on the other players like Malkin, Lindros, Sakic and Yzerman and we can move on.

If not, be prepared for continued calls of bias by other posters.


Last edited by daver: 06-16-2014 at 07:32 AM.
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06-16-2014, 07:31 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Again, there's a big difference between losing 10% of ones production and losing 55%.
You want to keep bandying around his career PO PpG, I'm going to keep asking what happens to that vaunted PpG when the rubber meets the road. 55% is a HUGE number!!!
Not if the end result in the calculation is the same. The big difference is the PPG at the start of your calculation. All you are showing is that Crosby appears to be better offensively than all the other players that are being mentioned.

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06-16-2014, 09:05 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Not at all. I can totally see Williams winning Game 7 against the Rangers, given his history. Then comes Priceless Montreal, and Pens probably bury them as well. In the finals they probably lose to the Kings anyway, but Crosby ceainly loses Conn Smythe to either Kopitar, Quick, or Doughty.
Crosby had 31 points in the 2009 playoffs. Other than Malkin no one has matched that since 1996. He also had 15 goals which also hasn't been done since 1996.

Quick this post-season had the 12th best GAA and the 15th best save %, not exactly historic numbers like Crosby.

Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring by 1 point, but recorded 5 fewer points than Crosby in 2009 and 10 less goals.

Doughty was great but only had 1 more goal and 1 more point than McDonagh to lead dmen in scoring.

To say those players would have obviously won the Conn Smythe over Crosby is ridiculous.

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06-16-2014, 09:16 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Crosby had 31 points in the 2009 playoffs. Other than Malkin no one has matched that since 1996. He also had 15 goals which also hasn't been done since 1996.

Quick this post-season had the 12th best GAA and the 15th best save %, not exactly historic numbers like Crosby.

Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring by 1 point, but recorded 5 fewer points than Crosby in 2009 and 10 less goals.

Doughty was great but only had 1 more goal and 1 more point than McDonagh to lead dmen in scoring.

To say those players would have obviously won the Conn Smythe over Crosby is ridiculous.
yeah but Williams would have scored 32 points if he was on the team.

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06-16-2014, 10:08 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Crosby had 31 points in the 2009 playoffs. Other than Malkin no one has matched that since 1996. He also had 15 goals which also hasn't been done since 1996.

Quick this post-season had the 12th best GAA and the 15th best save %, not exactly historic numbers like Crosby.

Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring by 1 point, but recorded 5 fewer points than Crosby in 2009 and 10 less goals.

Doughty was great but only had 1 more goal and 1 more point than McDonagh to lead dmen in scoring.

To say those players would have obviously won the Conn Smythe over Crosby is ridiculous.
There is just one problem here. We are not talking 09 Crosby. We are talking today's Crosby. Who is clearly inferior in playoffs to all these players you've named.

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06-16-2014, 10:12 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
There is just one problem here. We are not talking 09 Crosby. We are talking today's Crosby. Who is clearly inferior in playoffs to all these players you've named.
Also, Williams is better than Crosby. Cause he has a Conn Smythe. Also, Thornton is not a Hall of Fame's and Selanne is two different persons.

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06-16-2014, 10:12 AM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
There is just one problem here. We are not talking 09 Crosby. We are talking today's Crosby. Who is clearly inferior in playoffs to all these players you've named.
If we are just talking about "today's Crosby" and not his historical performances, I don't see what this thread is doing on the history board anymore.

Everyone seems to have run out of things to say about historical Crosby vs Fedorov vs C Lemieux.

Closed.

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