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Quagmire Iraq - 2014 Edition

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Old
06-15-2014, 07:24 PM
  #251
Johnnywhite
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Well... yeah. Like I said, I don't get the point of emphasizing the illegality, when no one would care about that if the war hadn't gone badly.
There was another way it could've gone? Not.

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06-15-2014, 07:25 PM
  #252
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There was another way it could've gone? Not.
This is completely irrelevant to my comment, sorry.

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06-15-2014, 07:26 PM
  #253
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bLiar you self aggrandising ****stain, must be the most loathsome political vermin of all.

'The violent insurgency in Iraq is the "predictable and malign effect" of the West's inaction over Syria, former UK prime minister Tony Blair has said.

Writing on his website, he said the takeover of Mosul by Sunni insurgents was planned across the Syrian border.

Every time "we put off action, the action we will be forced to take will be ultimately greater", he added.

He said the idea that the current crisis was a result of the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 was "bizarre".'

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27852832

...big yourself up bLiar you ******.
Seeing as he is so keen for us to get involved I volunteer he be the first to go.

It's also worth noting that he is Middle-East envoy.

Doing a good job.

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06-15-2014, 07:29 PM
  #254
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This is completely irrelevant to my comment, sorry.
Really?

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06-15-2014, 07:34 PM
  #255
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Really?
Yes. I guess I could explain this even more slowly. The point is that people complain about the illegality of the invasion when in fact that's not really what they're upset about, or they apply a double standard by complaining about the illegality of the invasion but not of the regime.

Is this really worth arguing about? You seem quite invested in this argument.

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06-15-2014, 08:10 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Yes. I guess I could explain this even more slowly. The point is that people complain about the illegality of the invasion when in fact that's not really what they're upset about, or they apply a double standard by complaining about the illegality of the invasion but not of the regime.

Is this really worth arguing about? You seem quite invested in this argument.
Yep, on a legal, strategic, common sense & now almost inevitable outcome level.

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06-15-2014, 08:27 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Yes. I guess I could explain this even more slowly. The point is that people complain about the illegality of the invasion when in fact that's not really what they're upset about, or they apply a double standard by complaining about the illegality of the invasion but not of the regime.

Is this really worth arguing about? You seem quite invested in this argument.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the international community is trying to set new standards about armed conflicts. They'd like countries to get UN approval before marching off somewhere with guns blazing. Afghanistan was ok'd by the UN after 9/11. Iraq was not. Bush used the Yugoslavia precedent. Technically Yugoslavia was illegal too because they couldn't get past the Russia veto to get approval (I think China too, not sure). The majority of the rest of the world was onside though. Bush only had his Coalition, UK and mostly newly aligned East Euro countries that wanted to show their bona-fides to the US. I'm not sure about about Putin though. I don't think he cared about that one, he was busy in Chechnya himself and didn't want any trouble, having the limelight on the US about Iraq was fine with him. I think I read in WikiLeaks that the French Quay D'Orsay (foreign affairs) got him to make a statement against the Iraq invasion on a visit to Paris but he quickly called Bush later to tell him he didn't mean it.

So brandng it 'illegal' is more about trying to set new moral and ethical standards about armed conflicts. Unfortunately international law seems to apply to everyone else other than superpowers.

p.s. Oh yeah, one more thing. Even though Saddam was a tyrant, his government was the official body or agent recognized by the international community. It doesn't have to be a democracy or people don't have to like them. By democratic standards his claim to leadership was probably weak but it was up to the Iraqis to overthrow him. A lot of people were hoping that would happen internally after the first Gulf War and were surprised when it didn't. Usually a strongman gets pushed aside after losing a big one (usually, no laws about that though). Saddam's grip was pretty tight. Later they figured his group and tribe had linked their own fates to him so tightly, they could all lose their privileges (and heads) if Saddam had been removed by force. Nobody dared act. For Bush they think it was personal between him and Saddam. Saddam had tried a failed assassination attempt on his Father on a visit to the M-E (retribution for the Gulf War; Bush Jr. wanted his own retribution, it was very expensive though).


Last edited by Puck: 06-15-2014 at 09:11 PM.
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06-16-2014, 01:09 AM
  #258
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Why does anyone on earth ever listen to anything Lindsey Graham and John McCain have to say on foreign policy, let alone anoint them as the top foreign policy political commentators to appear on the Sunday morning shows constantly?

Senator Lindsey Graham: We Need Iran's Help In Iraq

The United States needs Iran's involvement to prevent a collapse of the government in Iraq and should open talks toward that end, U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham said on Sunday, describing the step as unattractive but perhaps unavoidable.
"We are probably going to need their help to hold Baghdad," from takeover by the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), the Sunni Muslim militant group that has seized control over northern Iraqi cities and is approaching the nation's capital, Graham, a South Carolina Republican, said on CBS' "Face the Nation."

"The Iranians have an interest. They have Shia populations to protect. We need a dialogue of some kind," to help stabilize Iraq but also to set limits to ensure Iran does not use the situation to seize territory, he said.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/we-ne...#ixzz34mNdQour

-------------------------

Less than a year ago, Lindsey Graham on Iran:

Lindsey Graham: Iran ‘most thuggish’ regime


By JOSE DELREAL | 11/25/13 9:17 AM EST
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) thinks the Obama administration’s negotiations with Iran don’t consider that “we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”

“We’re dealing with people who are not only untrustworthy: this is a murderous regime that murders their own people, create chaos and mayhem throughout the whole world, the largest sponsor of terrorism,” Graham said Monday on CNN. “This deal doesn’t represent the fact we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...#ixzz34mOu1JD8

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06-16-2014, 02:02 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by hisgirlfriday View Post
Why does anyone on earth ever listen to anything Lindsey Graham and John McCain have to say on foreign policy, let alone anoint them as the top foreign policy political commentators to appear on the Sunday morning shows constantly?

Senator Lindsey Graham: We Need Iran's Help In Iraq

The United States needs Iran's involvement to prevent a collapse of the government in Iraq and should open talks toward that end, U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham said on Sunday, describing the step as unattractive but perhaps unavoidable.
"We are probably going to need their help to hold Baghdad," from takeover by the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), the Sunni Muslim militant group that has seized control over northern Iraqi cities and is approaching the nation's capital, Graham, a South Carolina Republican, said on CBS' "Face the Nation."

"The Iranians have an interest. They have Shia populations to protect. We need a dialogue of some kind," to help stabilize Iraq but also to set limits to ensure Iran does not use the situation to seize territory, he said.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/we-ne...#ixzz34mNdQour

-------------------------

Less than a year ago, Lindsey Graham on Iran:

Lindsey Graham: Iran ‘most thuggish’ regime


By JOSE DELREAL | 11/25/13 9:17 AM EST
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) thinks the Obama administration’s negotiations with Iran don’t consider that “we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”

“We’re dealing with people who are not only untrustworthy: this is a murderous regime that murders their own people, create chaos and mayhem throughout the whole world, the largest sponsor of terrorism,” Graham said Monday on CNN. “This deal doesn’t represent the fact we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...#ixzz34mOu1JD8
- Stalin regime was brutal but mutual security concern ensured a healthy working relationship

When dealing with a group as savage as ISIS ,,, Having a brutal thug on your side to do dirty work is not unreasonable response in scheme of national security and security of our allies

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06-16-2014, 04:53 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by hisgirlfriday View Post
Why does anyone on earth ever listen to anything Lindsey Graham and John McCain have to say on foreign policy, let alone anoint them as the top foreign policy political commentators to appear on the Sunday morning shows constantly?

Senator Lindsey Graham: We Need Iran's Help In Iraq

The United States needs Iran's involvement to prevent a collapse of the government in Iraq and should open talks toward that end, U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham said on Sunday, describing the step as unattractive but perhaps unavoidable.
"We are probably going to need their help to hold Baghdad," from takeover by the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), the Sunni Muslim militant group that has seized control over northern Iraqi cities and is approaching the nation's capital, Graham, a South Carolina Republican, said on CBS' "Face the Nation."

"The Iranians have an interest. They have Shia populations to protect. We need a dialogue of some kind," to help stabilize Iraq but also to set limits to ensure Iran does not use the situation to seize territory, he said.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/we-ne...#ixzz34mNdQour

-------------------------

Less than a year ago, Lindsey Graham on Iran:

Lindsey Graham: Iran ‘most thuggish’ regime


By JOSE DELREAL | 11/25/13 9:17 AM EST
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) thinks the Obama administration’s negotiations with Iran don’t consider that “we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”

“We’re dealing with people who are not only untrustworthy: this is a murderous regime that murders their own people, create chaos and mayhem throughout the whole world, the largest sponsor of terrorism,” Graham said Monday on CNN. “This deal doesn’t represent the fact we’re dealing with the most thuggish people in the whole world.”



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...#ixzz34mOu1JD8
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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06-16-2014, 07:14 AM
  #261
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What we've got here is an engineered destruction fueled by the US-Saudi Arabia-Qatar axis of state terrorism.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-des...iphate/5386998

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06-16-2014, 07:41 AM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
- Stalin regime was brutal but mutual security concern ensured a healthy working relationship

When dealing with a group as savage as ISIS ,,, Having a brutal thug on your side to do dirty work is not unreasonable response in scheme of national security and security of our allies
Except... Lindsey was claiming less than a year ago that it was impossible to deal with Iran on anything because they were so untrustworthy back when he wanted to make political hay about Obama's administration entering into negotiations with Iran that Israel didn't like.

Now suddenly Lindsey is cheerleading for the U.S. to jump into bed with Iran to take on ISIS. It's a total 180 and just more hypocrisy from a guy who would be better served just keeping his mouth shut and not flying off the handle with hyperbolic statements every time something happens in the world... of course if he didn't make those kind of extreme statements then he couldn't get the TV time.

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06-16-2014, 08:26 AM
  #263
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Myopic.

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06-16-2014, 08:28 AM
  #264
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I don't have Lindsey's voting record in front of me, but I know he has a reputation of being moderate. What I don't understand is why, since every time he opens his mouth, it's to undermine Obama.

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06-16-2014, 09:57 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
I don't have Lindsey's voting record in front of me, but I know he has a reputation of being moderate. What I don't understand is why, since every time he opens his mouth, it's to undermine Obama.
Because McCain likes to have two war parrots backing him at times while he whines about not being president and how awesome he'd be at blowing **** up, and Goober got the job. Joey Lies has been replaced by that dimwit Kelly Ayotte.

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06-16-2014, 10:17 AM
  #266
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You gotta love it when MSNBC brings on Paul Bremer to talk about what's next in Iraq. If only we could find Custer to talk about Little Big Horn, we'd be all set.

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06-16-2014, 10:34 AM
  #267
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You gotta love it when MSNBC brings on Paul Bremer to talk about what's next in Iraq. If only we could find Custer to talk about Little Big Horn, we'd be all set.
Bremer?

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06-16-2014, 11:19 AM
  #268
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Bremer?
Of course, Joe Scarborough still thinks he's relevant.

He got shredded by the other guys on with him, not Ass Suck Joe of course.

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06-16-2014, 04:34 PM
  #269
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The ISIS troops in Iraq are apparently commanded by an old friend, General Duri - here back in the day together with another old friend:


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06-16-2014, 05:08 PM
  #270
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The ISIS troops in Iraq are apparently commanded by an old friend, General Duri - here back in the day together with another old friend:

WIKI has been updated already. Also, he is the King of Clubs of Iraqi most wanted.

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06-16-2014, 06:22 PM
  #271
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Personally, I don't think this current problem is Obama's fault for not hitting Syria. Any more than I think this is a direct result of or Bush's fault for hitting Iraq (and I blame Bush for a lot). But if the Republicans want to hit the Dems with the first BS line then I can see why the Dems reply would be to say that they are still cleaning up Bush's mistakes with the other byline. Politically it's all fair game I guess...

It isn't partisanship outside the US, but the US will get blamed no matter what. Look how often anything has happened on the international scene and the same posters show up to say it's all the Americans' fault.

It's either that or it goes Godwin. Often both (see Ukraine).
This reminds me of most of the articles written by Eric Margolis. Always seems like the US is culpable for the ills of the world. And the same could be said for the commentors under each of his articles.

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06-16-2014, 08:47 PM
  #272
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This reminds me of most of the articles written by Eric Margolis. Always seems like the US is culpable for the ills of the world. And the same could be said for the commentors under each of his articles.
Well, as a left-winger, my view on the this including Bush and Blair's culpability level is in the minority.

Tony Blair is getting shredded in the British press for his blog essay on disclaiming responsibility for Iraq. His moniker it seems is 'the young war criminal'. He should really keep his mouth shut and move on with his life.

Similarly, Bush is getting reemed for 'breaking' Iraq.

I definitely understand the sentiments on Bush and Blair from Democrats and Labour. I am one of the liberal lefties that screamed for years about the insanity of their Iraq follies, and I don't want to leave them off the hook. They really put fuel on the fire in the M-E and contributed greatly to the destruction of infrastructure and to the poverty levels in Iraq. But they weren't alone and there is a whole iceberg of like-minded people underneath sea level that agreed with this and are silent now. And there are enough 'forces' in the M-E with their own agendas which are funding these conflicts in the M-E and elsewhere.

I think people who know me well enough on this HF board know I'm not a Bush or Blair apologist. And I do understand that previous actions influence the present. On this story though, I don't want to leave the current players and actors off the hook by blaming the past. People today are not off the hook, not innocent for what is going on today because of the past.

And as a rule, I try not to lump in everybody in a country for the actions of their leadership. I just think it is lazy to write US, UK, Russia, Germany, etc.. but also, a lot more people should look in the mirror and see that their own opinions and actions at a lower level contribute to the general level of BS in the world. It isn't just the top politicians. We should all take a breath before throwing rocks.

I'm a history buff too, but on some stories (Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Cuba, Middle-East in general etc.) I prefer to stay focused on the present than go off on the usual historical rampage of a blame game, who did what to who first. It's always part of the discussion and seldom solves anything. I know the history exists, but using it to absolve culpability in the present is often used as a deflection (again, see Ukraine).

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06-16-2014, 10:39 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindsey Graham
The stubborn headed President we have who thinks he knows better than everybody else, who withdrew troops..... Stubborn headed delusional detached President, but that's the last bad thing I'm gonna say...
Wholly ****

Didb't these same idiots slam Dem's back during the Bush years for talking bad about a President during war time? So much for that I guess

I didn't see the interview, stole it from the Daily Show. Hopefully he didn't take it out of context

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06-18-2014, 07:53 PM
  #274
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I'm really enjoying the file footage from 2004 that shows the AQI black flag (not ISIS) rolling down Haifa Street in Baghdad being used to convince Westerners that ISIS is "rolling towards Baghdad"

L-O-friggin L.

How are they "rolling"?

Are they "rolling" down the Mahmudiyah or Hillah Highway, or Route Tampa past the Iraqi Army checkpoints every 3 kilometers?

The media coverage is a disgrace. And as usual stupid Westerners are buying it all.

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06-18-2014, 07:59 PM
  #275
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The best way I can put it is that Europeans thinking the entire population of America was going to explode into a race war after the Rodney King verdict.

Got it. The Denny video was powerful. Dozens of US cities had small scale riots and looting.

But that didn't mean the Country was unhinged even though the media wanted you to believe it was.

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