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Ontario Politics - Provincial Election June 12, 2014

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06-16-2014, 10:23 PM
  #951
Jamie Thomas
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
He's no Rob Ford if that's what you mean.
Yeah I did not express myself well. Of course he is no Rob Ford, but again who is? But he is certainly someone that I will never accuse of being too honest, that's for sure.


Last edited by Jamie Thomas: 06-16-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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06-16-2014, 10:28 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
What was Hudak honest about ? There wasn't anyone who believed his fiscal platform and when questioned about the time frame on his pledge to create a 1 mil jobs or resign he avoided answering.

Ontario has been shedding jobs since 89 and it hasn't made a difference which party has been in power . Saying the Libs or any other party was responsible makes you look like an ****ing idiot.

How can anyone twist him saying he'd reduce the public sector by a 100k Jobs . He said it , he ran on it and he lost.

Also i'm not interested in gutting health care and education just so we can give another huge tax cut to corporations.
I would like to know this as well. If he was being honest he is a total idiot.

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06-16-2014, 10:57 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by Tubby Tuke View Post
He was also incompetent. He was unable to get permits to run a photo-op, his jobs plan was another failure. If you can't get the basics of a campaign right - what hope do you have of running a province well? Apparently that didn't seem to bother you or Andrew Coyne because what does being competent have to do with running a province of 13 million people?

He lost because he was honest and due to his honesty - the incompetency showed and voters ran from him. Edit: The Toronto thing is also amusing - maybe once you welfare queens get off the dime of Torontonians - you can talk some **** and not come off as a hypocrite. Until then - the only votes that should count should be the votes of Torontonians.
I hope no one ever asks "Why does the rest of the country hate Toronto?" after reading a statement like this.

I will agree with you, you don't need to be competent to run a province of 13 million people. Dalton McGuinty did it. He ran with is tail in between his legs once the scandals dropped like flies. It is no accident he was nowhere to be seen during this election. I wouldn't be shocked at all if they put him up in a hotel for a month in Siberia in the hopes that Ontarians would forget he was the Liberal Premier for 10 years. I guess they did.

Bottom line is, there had to be some cuts. The deficit is $12.5 billion. The debt is $300 billion. Hudak was too honest because he told the public he was going to cut some jobs - gradually of course but it was twisted a different way - because Ontario is well on its way to bankruptcy. The unions freaked out and rallied against that, and only that. All I can say is this, stockpile your money before the bottom falls out.

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06-16-2014, 11:04 PM
  #954
htpwn
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Originally Posted by Jamie Thomas View Post
Yeah I did not express myself well. Of course he is no Rob Ford, but again who is? But he is certainly someone that I will never accuse of being too honest, that's for sure.
No, you got your point across.

I was just sarcastically using Ford's oft-repeated refrain that he's the "most honest politician in Canada" in response.

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06-16-2014, 11:21 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I hope no one ever asks "Why does the rest of the country hate Toronto?" after reading a statement like this.

I will agree with you, you don't need to be competent to run a province of 13 million people. Dalton McGuinty did it. He ran with is tail in between his legs once the scandals dropped like flies. It is no accident he was nowhere to be seen during this election. I wouldn't be shocked at all if they put him up in a hotel for a month in Siberia in the hopes that Ontarians would forget he was the Liberal Premier for 10 years. I guess they did.

Bottom line is, there had to be some cuts. The deficit is $12.5 billion. The debt is $300 billion. Hudak was too honest because he told the public he was going to cut some jobs - gradually of course but it was twisted a different way - because Ontario is well on its way to bankruptcy. The unions freaked out and rallied against that, and only that. All I can say is this, stockpile your money before the bottom falls out.
If you cut tons of workers the government will get less tax revenue further driving up the deficit. The jobs he wanted to cut are good middle class jobs.

Cutting spending is important but I don't think cutting jobs to do that is the best solution.

How about raising the corporate tax rate?

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06-17-2014, 06:28 AM
  #956
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I would like to know this as well. If he was being honest he is a total idiot.
Apparantly he didn't even tell his caucus about the job cuts and the trillion jobs plan. Many were caught completely off guard by having to campaign on something they knew was completely absurd. What an honest man.

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06-17-2014, 08:40 AM
  #957
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I mean, come on, guys, Hudak only said he'd fire 100,000 taxpayers who are earning a nice, middle-class income and replace them with a million jobs from.. uh.. well, he'll get back to you on that, but definitely not any more lazy-ass union workers. Private sector! It's the pampered, overpaid union workers' fault that their mean old union prefers corrupt lesbians over an honest Joe like ol' Tim.


Last edited by Free Edler: 06-17-2014 at 08:56 AM.
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06-17-2014, 08:48 AM
  #958
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I mean, come on, guys, Hudak only said he'd fire 100,000 taxpayers who are earning a nice, middle-class income and replace them with a million jobs from.. uh.. well, he'll get back to you on that, but definitely not any more lazy-ass union workers. Private sector! It's the pampered, overpaid union workers'fault that their mean old union prefers corrupt lesbians over an honest Joe like ol' Tim.
Old honest Tim, who's being sued because he lied about Wynne to score political points. Really hope she continues to persue that lawsuit.

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06-17-2014, 09:35 AM
  #959
Do Make Say Think
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He never said he'd fire 100,000 people

Attrition

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06-17-2014, 09:39 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
He never said he'd fire 100,000 people

Attrition
The worst part is that I agree that we should lower the provincial civil servant count through attrition.

He just marketed terribly.

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06-17-2014, 09:43 AM
  #961
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The worst part is that I agree that we should lower the provincial civil servant count through attrition.

He just marketed terribly.
He definitely could have done a better job in selling the idea

Then again does it really matter? Look at some of the responses in this thread: if it's something that could be construed as right-wing it's automatically bad and not worth discussing.

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06-17-2014, 09:47 AM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
He never said he'd fire 100,000 people

Attrition
The story turned into "we'll do it through attrition" after they realized they were mortally wounded by the promise.

Anyways the end result is the same.

He was a bonehead:

Quote:
Originally Posted by therecord.com

Defeated Cambridge PC MPP Rob Leone said Monday he was not given any advance notice of party leader Tim Hudak's campaign promise to cut 100,000 public sector jobs.
...
"We did receive a lot of phone calls and a lot of emails from people who asked a lot of questions about (the 100,000 job cut) proposal, and I think that was one of the reasons why people decided they would sign up and vote Liberal."

PC party candidates say the controversial pledge from Hudak, which came in the first week of the 40-day election campaign, caught veteran Tories and rookie candidates off guard.
...
"A few insiders in the central campaign run out of Toronto devised the 100,000 job cut announcement thinking it would somehow mobilize our supporters," Harris said. "But, ironically, it did just the opposite; it demoralized our supporters while mobilizing every last supporter of the Liberals, New Democrats and the Greens."
Source

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06-17-2014, 10:06 AM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
He never said he'd fire 100,000 people. Attrition.
Does 'attrition' mean something different in Ontario? Public services will suffer if 100,000 fewer people are employed as public servants, via retirement or not replacing people who leave the public service - and why would anyone leave unless they were pushed? This was one of the worst policy ideas since Doris (Stockwell) Day's referendum debacle.
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
The worst part is that I agree that we should lower the provincial civil servant count through attrition. He just marketed terribly.
The number of public servants in Ontario is already the lowest in the country per capita. Surely there are different - nay, better - ways to create jobs than by weakening the public service.

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06-17-2014, 10:09 AM
  #964
Do Make Say Think
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So because the top dogs didn't communicate the proposal to everybody else it means that they were planning on firing 100,000 people if they won?



Thanks for proving my point

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Originally Posted by Free Torts View Post
Does 'attrition' mean something different in Ontario? Public services will suffer if 100,000 fewer people are employed as public servants, via retirement or not replacing people who leave the public service - and why would anyone leave unless they were pushed? This was one of the worst policy ideas since Doris (Stockwell) Day's referendum debacle.
That's not the point: the point is that the PCO never said they would fire 100,000 if they won like some of you are proclaiming.

I didn't vote for them so it's not like you have to convince me of anything here.

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06-17-2014, 10:14 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
That's not the point: the point is that the PCO never said they would fire 100,000 if they won like some of you are proclaiming.

I didn't vote for them so it's not like you have to convince me of anything here.
The end result would be the same: 100,000 fewer people in the public service in the largest province in the country. I don't know how anyone apart from political partisans could see that as a good thing. Public servants are actually useful.

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06-17-2014, 10:16 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
So because the top dogs didn't communicate the proposal to everybody else it means that they were planning on firing 100,000 people if they won?



Thanks for proving my point
It doesn't prove your point at all. It does show what an incompetent bozo he was..


Quote:
That's not the point: the point is that the PCO never said they would fire 100,000 if they won like some of you are proclaiming.
Semantics.

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06-17-2014, 10:29 AM
  #967
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The end result would be the same: 100,000 fewer people in the public service in the largest province in the country. I don't know how anyone apart from political partisans could see that as a good thing. Public servants are actually useful.
I'm a public servant so no need to sell me on the idea that what I do is useful

The issue that was being discussed was how honest, or not, Hudak was

Then people stating saying he said he would fire 100,000 public servants

That's not true, he never said that

That's all

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It doesn't prove your point at all. It does show what an incompetent bozo he was..




Semantics.
Semantics matter when people accuse someone of saying something he didn't

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06-17-2014, 10:44 AM
  #968
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I don't think the issue is the utility of the public service, that goes without saying. The problem is whether it can be made more efficient. The truth lies somewhere in between the "reduce public service by 100k" (Hudak) and the status quo (unions).

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06-17-2014, 11:19 AM
  #969
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Did you guys not watch the townhall super early in the election that Hudak held? "I'll cut 10% of the public service or 100 000 jobs".

This wasn't a promise deep in his platform that the Liberals dug up.

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06-17-2014, 11:23 AM
  #970
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Semantics matter when people accuse someone of saying something he didn't
If it helps you sleep at night.

Firing, termination, attrition, layoffs all end up in the same place.

He promised he was going to balanced the budget in two years. How long did you think it would take to retire 100,000 workers?

In his plan (which is dated after the bleeding started) they do propose some attrition but also cuts:


Quote:
ACTION – REDUCE THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT PAYROLL

Decrease the number of positions on the government payroll by 100,000, about 10 per cent. That’s the size the government was as recently as 2009. Vital frontline services such as those performed by nurses, doctors and police will not be affected. The reduction of government positions will be done by redefining the scope of government to focus on the things it can do best. As government gets out of businesses in which it does not belong, many of these jobs will be transferred to Ontario companies. When employees retire, many of these positions will not be filled. A new focus on frontline service will mean fewer administrative jobs. Government’s payroll will also shrink as it eliminates agencies and programs that don’t offer good value for the taxpayer. Combined, these actions will reduce the size of the public sector from slightly more than 1,000,000 Ontarians to a size we can all afford.
So yeah, there is that. Is right from the horses mouth good enough for you?

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06-17-2014, 11:24 AM
  #971
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Cutting isn't firing, you can cut through attrition

Again, I'm not saying that he couldn't have done a better job at selling the idea

I'm saying he never said "If I win I'm firing 100,000 people"

Some of you fellows clearly drank the Liberals' kool-aid

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06-17-2014, 11:49 AM
  #972
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The Ontario Public Service numbers 65,000 employees, that isn't extravagant for a province of 13 million. It had already gone through a series of program cuts under Mike Harris and the Liberals never went on an expansion craze after. I suppose you can always look for more efficient ways of doing business; if they are like the Feds, they are moving much of the labour-intensive client service interface with the public towards the internet. I suppose you have to define efficient service, but the new ways save money.

Of course the larger number quoted for 'public servants' is actually the para-public sector and that includes teachers. The one area that did benefit under McGuinty's rule was the education sector. Better student-teacher ratios, new pre-kindergarten program (popular with parents), half decent contracts after years of suffering under Harris. But McGuinty hit the teachers under their last contract. They were ready to punish the Liberals but Hudak scared them (they could count and do Math) and Hudak pushed them all back into Liberal arms. Parents also feared program cuts and that didn't shove them into Hudak's arms. The same for health care sector workers (he just promised to keep nurses).

Maybe Hudak exaggerated his cutting program for special fx to make a splash, maybe he didn't mean exactly what 100,000 cuts meant to others but he didn't explain it well, and people feared the worse. After all Conservatives have been fearless cutters and there was no reason not to fear the worse.

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06-17-2014, 12:36 PM
  #973
Gobias Industries
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Originally Posted by Free Torts View Post
The number of public servants in Ontario is already the lowest in the country per capita. Surely there are different - nay, better - ways to create jobs than by weakening the public service.
There's a ton of ways to looks at it though, I can't find the table now but we've seen some pretty marked growth during tough times under the Liberals.

There are better ways to create jobs, but that's not really my point anyway. I think we could use some trimming in the public sector.

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06-17-2014, 12:49 PM
  #974
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One area where Hudak did succeed is generating talk and opinions. Where it didn't succeed is translating that into votes.

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06-17-2014, 02:25 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
He never said he'd fire 100,000 people

Attrition
He said during the debate it was going to be 'by attrition.'

He also said, at different points in the campaign, that it would be a combination of 'attrition, contracting out, and layoffs.'

Given that Ontario has 775,000 public sector employees, a 100,000 cut would result in a 12% cut, if done equally across the board. Of course, Hudak said he'd spare the OPP and health care from cuts, leaving 1 in 6 public employees poised to have lost their jobs in the next 2 years (some sources also say 3 or 4, but given the the promise to eliminate the deficit in 2 years, I'll go with 2). 4 of 6 of those individuals work in education.

As I also noted in an earlier post, Harris only cut 44,000 jobs during his term in office. Hudak was aiming for double that.

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