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Old
06-17-2014, 09:41 AM
  #626
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
The average American drives 13,476 miles a year. Have you factored that utilization into your math, or are we still only allowed to talk about total deaths because the numbers suit you better?
Talk about whatever you want to talk about.

Personally, I find it more difficult to completely discount those 33k lives just because you need to complicate the issue to suit your needs.

But hey, its a free country!

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06-17-2014, 09:41 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Nice, we're back to Vtwin's favorite topic in every gun thread!



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06-17-2014, 09:43 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by kov View Post
Thanks; so you are comparing a backed-out number against a non-backed-out number? Not sure how interesting that is.
Like I said three times now in this very thread.

Feel free to back the intentional suicides out of the 33k car deaths.

Seriously friend, please pay attention.

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06-17-2014, 09:47 AM
  #629
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Why would you remove suicides from the equation?

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06-17-2014, 09:53 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Like I said three times now in this very thread.

Feel free to back the intentional suicides out of the 33k car deaths.

Seriously friend, please pay attention.
Surprisingly, no statistics is collected on suicide by car, or if there is, there is a bias to rule it not suicide for legal reasons.

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06-17-2014, 09:55 AM
  #631
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There are more than enough studies that suggest that people who've killed themselves with a gun would not have done so otherwise.

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06-17-2014, 09:56 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Like I said three times now in this very thread.

Feel free to back the intentional suicides out of the 33k car deaths.

Seriously friend, please pay attention.
I'm responding to your 'three times' statement -- that is comparing two different numbers. I don't understand why you are comparing two different metrics on purpose?

Observing that there are 3x as many [accidental+suicide+murder] deaths by car as there are [murder] deaths by gun just doesn't seem like a terribly useful or noteworthy thing at all. What sort of conclusion do you see is available from it?

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06-17-2014, 10:36 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
There are more than enough studies that suggest that people who've killed themselves with a gun would not have done so otherwise.
LOL

Really?

They interviewed the 20k people who successfully killed themselves with a gun and found that they would not have killed themselves had they not had access to a gun?

Interviewing a handful of people who were not committed enough to succeed in the first place might suit your needs but it really has little value at all.

The word "suggests" might have been a clue....

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06-17-2014, 10:42 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by kov View Post
I'm responding to your 'three times' statement -- that is comparing two different numbers. I don't understand why you are comparing two different metrics on purpose?

Observing that there are 3x as many [accidental+suicide+murder] deaths by car as there are [murder] deaths by gun just doesn't seem like a terribly useful or noteworthy thing at all. What sort of conclusion do you see is available from it?
With the lack of data on car suicides we must make some assumptions based on logic and common sense.

Logic and common sense tells us that while suicide by car is certainly possible and surely does happen on occasion it also should tell us that in no way does the suicide by car number even come close to comparing with the suicide by gun number.

It almost sounds like you are suggesting that 65+ percent of the total car deaths are intentional suicides. Is that what you are saying?

Logic and reason should also suggest to you that there are far more completely innocent victims related to car deaths then to gun deaths.

But hey, keep on beating your chest on the internet about the 10k relevant gun deaths while completely ignoring the 30+k car deaths.

It's a free country!

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06-17-2014, 11:06 AM
  #635
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Surprisingly, no statistics is collected on suicide by car, or if there is, there is a bias to rule it not suicide for legal reasons.
Looked it up:

http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/resear...s/muarc216.pdf

Study from Australia.

Estimate pegs it around 1-7% of car deaths are driver suicide.

Pedestrian suicide has a number not been given an estimation.

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06-17-2014, 12:21 PM
  #636
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Personally, I find it more difficult to completely discount those 33k lives just because you need to complicate the issue to suit your needs.
Who is discounting those deaths? We work very hard to reduce those deaths. We have thousands of pages of regulations about the construction of vehicles and mandated safety equipment. We have many laws limiting who can operate and how they operate vehicles. Unlike with guns, we legislate the crap out of everything related to vehicles to try to reduce traffic deaths.

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06-17-2014, 12:29 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Estimate pegs it around 1-7% of car deaths are driver suicide.
Wow, is it really that low? Alright, my apologies Vtwin, it's a reasonable statistical comparison where there's basically a 1-7% margin for error. I think your 3x point makes sense now.

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06-17-2014, 12:37 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
There are more than enough studies that suggest that people who've killed themselves with a gun would not have done so otherwise.
Certainly not. If they didn't have a gun they would've had to have used some other method. You can only kill yourself with a gun if you actually have access to a gun; what a revelation.

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06-17-2014, 01:12 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Certainly not. If they didn't have a gun they would've had to have used some other method. You can only kill yourself with a gun if you actually have access to a gun; what a revelation.
This has been shown by studies to be false. Turns out wanting to kill yourself is often a fleeting, temporary feeling, and without access to an "easier" method of suicide, suicide rates do go down.

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06-17-2014, 01:20 PM
  #640
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Joseph Houseman, a 63-year-old "Open Carry" advocate, prompted multiple calls to 911 when he stood in front of a Kalamazoo Dairy Queen with a rifle and shouted at traffic and passersby.

At least one 911 caller was concerned that Houseman may have been intoxicated.

When police responded to the scene, they found Houseman wearing what appeared to be pajama pants and carrying a rifle. When they tried to talk to him, Houseman gave the middle finger to the officers, grabbed his crotch and shouted about revolution, according to video of the incident obtained by the Kalamazoo Gazette and placed online at MLive.com.

A police officer repeatedly asked Houseman to put down his gun so they could talk, but he refused and accused the cop of "acting like a *****" and being in a gang.

At one point, when asked his name, Houseman identified himself as "Joe Schmoe."

After 40 minutes, Houseman put down his rifle, which was then confiscated by police. He also offered his real name and said he was sorry.
What's especially concerning is this exchange between the officer and Mr. Houseman:

Quote:
Geik offers to allow Houseman to walk home and retrieve his rifle the following day, or to drive him home and continue the discussion there. Houseman declines both offers.

Geik: But you're not stable mentally, which now takes you away from that rifle.

Houseman: I'm not stable mentally? How do you decide that?

Geik: You're damn right. How did this happen with open carry? What are you supposed to do when you contact law enforcement? Do you say, 'I hate you mother(expletive), (expletive) you? I hate you, there's a revolution coming.' Do you say that? Is that what you're taught?

Houseman: It was wrong of me.

Houseman agains asks for his gun back. Geik tells him he wants to make sure he isn't a risk to himself or others.

Geik: You saying (expletive), (expletive), (expletive) and yelling across the street with a rifle in your hands ...

Houseman: That's my First Amendment right.

Geik: No it's not. You can't swear.

Houseman: That's bull---. I can threaten you if I want to.

Geik: That's incorrect.

Houseman: I can threaten you. I can threaten you're family. I didn't threaten your family, I said I could.

Unidentified officer: You said a war was coming.

Houseman: I didn't say a war was coming.

Unidentified officer: You said a revolution is coming.

Houseman: Think about it. You know it is.
Again, there has to be regulations to protect citizens from these kinds of situations and these kinds of 'revolutionaries'.

Video available here: http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/..._open_car.html

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06-17-2014, 01:23 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
This has been shown by studies to be false. Turns out wanting to kill yourself is often a fleeting, temporary feeling, and without access to an "easier" method of suicide, suicide rates do go down.
And this cannot be emphasized enough, just because suicide is often a fleeting, temporary feeling doesn't mean it always is.

So before it's said again, yes, many people do find ways to kill themselves without a gun. But many people also use the extreme convenience of having a gun nearby to do something that they might not do otherwise.

Suicide is terrifying, even to people attempting it. Easy access to guns gives them a chance to make it quick and relatively painless, especially in moments of weakness.

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06-17-2014, 01:26 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Who is discounting those deaths? We work very hard to reduce those deaths. We have thousands of pages of regulations about the construction of vehicles and mandated safety equipment. We have many laws limiting who can operate and how they operate vehicles. Unlike with guns, we legislate the crap out of everything related to vehicles to try to reduce traffic deaths.

We've been around and around on this...


I disagree that we work "very hard" on this. I have suggested numerous times, two things that could save more lives in one year than the repeal of the 2nd. Not to mention the existing laws are ridiculously lax and the only thing that would keep a third time DUI offender from driving is locking them up.

There is NEVER a hint of concern on this forum, the media or any of the various social media platforms that even comes close to the instant and thunderous outburst of "concern" when a shooting makes the news. Even though three times as many people likely died that very same day on the highway.

Not saying the lack of car concern should result in a lack of gun concern.

Just pointing out that while you all go ape **** over a shooting you also sit silently as three times as many people a year die by something that could more easily be slightly further regulated while not affecting the intended purpose a bit.

Spin it however you like but at the end of the day three times more lives are lost on the roads while we rant on an on an on about guns while hiding like little ******* behind the "we already regulate cars" bull ****.

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06-17-2014, 02:04 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
We've been around and around on this...


I disagree that we work "very hard" on this. I have suggested numerous times, two things that could save more lives in one year than the repeal of the 2nd. Not to mention the existing laws are ridiculously lax and the only thing that would keep a third time DUI offender from driving is locking them up.

There is NEVER a hint of concern on this forum, the media or any of the various social media platforms that even comes close to the instant and thunderous outburst of "concern" when a shooting makes the news. Even though three times as many people likely died that very same day on the highway.

Not saying the lack of car concern should result in a lack of gun concern.

Just pointing out that while you all go ape **** over a shooting you also sit silently as three times as many people a year die by something that could more easily be slightly further regulated while not affecting the intended purpose a bit.

Spin it however you like but at the end of the day three times more lives are lost on the roads while we rant on an on an on about guns while hiding like little ******* behind the "we already regulate cars" bull ****.
Odd (convenient?) that you never compared homicide rates between guns and motor vehicles: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/...nd-Firearm-Use

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06-17-2014, 02:04 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Spin it however you like but at the end of the day three times more lives are lost on the roads while we rant on an on an on about guns while hiding like little ******* behind the "we already regulate cars" bull ****.
I disagree with most all of this, but there's no point.

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06-17-2014, 02:22 PM
  #645
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
Odd (convenient?) that you never compared homicide rates between guns and motor vehicles: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/...nd-Firearm-Use
Interesting stuff here.

Your unsubstantiated stats given to us by a anti-gun source indicates the annual motor vehicle deaths are much higher than the 33 k being used in this thread. Up to a whopping 50K!

Even more interesting is the number of suicides by car. 20,000 suicides per year with a car?!!!

Hmmmm..... I wonder what kind of reaction this new revelation will get. Seems like suicide by car is pretty much the same number as suicide by gun. If only those 20k had a few minutes to think about it before they drifted into unconsciousness.....Surely they would have a change of heart.


So to recap

According to this new information.

Even including suicides cars kill 60+% more people than guns.

If you take the suicides out of the car deaths, guns and cars kill the same number of people.

Just about the same amount of suicides are accomplished by each, cars and guns.


Yet still guns get ALL the attention.

Come on fellas. If you cared at all about the innocents who are being slaughtered at a greater rate by car than by gun you would spend at least a little energy lamenting the lax effort being given to making our society safer.

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06-17-2014, 02:24 PM
  #646
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Ban Cars!

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Old
06-17-2014, 02:25 PM
  #647
Vtwin
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
I disagree with most all of this, but there's no point.
Three times as many innocents are NOT killed by car than by gun?

"We" don't rant on endlessly over most every shooting that makes the news?

"We" don't always hide behind the "cars are regulated" bs whenever necessary?


Not sure what you are disagreeing with here. It is pretty cut and dried to anyone who is paying attention.

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06-17-2014, 02:33 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Vtwin View Post
Three times as many innocents are NOT killed by car than by gun?

"We" don't rant on endlessly over most every shooting that makes the news?

"We" don't always hide behind the "cars are regulated" bs whenever necessary?


Not sure what you are disagreeing with here. It is pretty cut and dried to anyone who is paying attention.
When's the last time a gun was recalled because it accidentally killed someone?

How many times have cars been recalled in the last 10 years?

Who's really making their product safer, gun manufacturers or car manufacturers?

It's pretty cut and dry.

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06-17-2014, 02:40 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Sharpshooter1 View Post
When's the last time a gun was recalled because it accidentally killed someone?

How many times have cars been recalled in the last 10 years?

Who's really making their product safer, gun manufacturers or car manufacturers?

It's pretty cut and dry.


Yes. It is absolutely cut and dried.

30k non self-inflicted car deaths.

10k non self inflicted (intentional) gun deaths.

Absolutely cut and dried.

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06-17-2014, 02:41 PM
  #650
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By Vtwin's logic, driving a car is more dangerous than BASE jumping because more people die per year doing the former than the latter.

Or for another take on it, it's equivalent to saying that being a professional truck driver is a more dangerous profession than being an Alaskan crab fisherman because more total truck drivers die per year than fishermen do.

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