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Kimmo Timonen Re-signs (Reportedly $2M base; with bonuses could reach $3.5M)

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06-18-2014, 04:12 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
For the argument's sake let's say that one of the kids will not need AHL time and will be ready to step into the NHL full time... that would leave the Flyers with one real banger on D... unless you want to consider Coburn in that category... Grossmann is the Flyers' crease clearer and has his role.

All that said, IMO it is a big assumption that one of the young D will earn a spot on the Roster and be able to play very game against NHL level competition. D-men take longer to develop and often rushing can interfere with their growth... There are a few that can step up, but they are much more the exception than the rule. The Flyers have made a recent strong push for home grown D-men for the future... Homer when GM mentioned that one of them could conceivably force their hands and earn a spot... but IIRC he expected them to need time.

I understand the desire to have one of the kids play with Kimmo, but I feel the timing just didn't fall into place... Maybe bringing Kimmo back as a coach could help going forward. JMO.
I personally don't think you can have both Schenn and Grossmann on the team and be legitimately competitive. They're both the same thing. Slow, handle puck like grenade, lay big hits, block shots. Ones our only Righty and is the same age as our forward core. The other is not. You don't need "bangers" you need guys that can take the puck away and move it up the ice quickly

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06-18-2014, 04:39 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I personally don't think you can have both Schenn and Grossmann on the team and be legitimately competitive. They're both the same thing. Slow, handle puck like grenade, lay big hits, block shots. Ones our only Righty and is the same age as our forward core. The other is not. You don't need "bangers" you need guys that can take the puck away and move it up the ice quickly
So a D-man clears the crease merely by taking away the puck and moving it out... he forgets the man in the crease and expends all his efforts on seeking possession of the puck so he can move it out?

The Flyers have never been a soft team in any area and never one on Defense... You don't have to be a banger to not be soft -- see Kimmo -- but usually a good defense has to at times punish the opposition and not allow free lanes to the goal... obstruction is illegal and clutching and grabbing can no longer do the trick... Positioning is key, yes, but laying a hard hit at the proper time is also... making the opposing Forwards be aware of possible hits is important... a more passive finesse player can battle for the puck, but a team does need the bangers to lessen the battles.

Take away a teams only banger by an injury and the team has no bangers... leave the team one D-man that clears the crease and an injury leaves them without a player that can clear the crease. Grossmann was brought in to clear the crease and that is a major role for him. I'm not saying that Grossmann is essential and cannot be replaced, I'm just saying that he should be. I maintain that since Pronger has been gone the team has lost much of their toughness and edge in that area... reducing a hard hitter is not going to help. IMO L.Schenn is developing and Grossmann is doing his role as best he can... replace him... but don't eliminate his role entirely.


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06-19-2014, 09:26 AM
  #203
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Hopefully morin can bring that to the team when/if he gets here

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06-19-2014, 10:06 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
So a D-man clears the crease merely by taking away the puck and moving it out... he forgets the man in the crease and expends all his efforts on seeking possession of the puck so he can move it out?

The Flyers have never been a soft team in any area and never one on Defense... You don't have to be a banger to not be soft -- see Kimmo -- but usually a good defense has to at times punish the opposition and not allow free lanes to the goal... obstruction is illegal and clutching and grabbing can no longer do the trick... Positioning is key, yes, but laying a hard hit at the proper time is also... making the opposing Forwards be aware of possible hits is important... a more passive finesse player can battle for the puck, but a team does need the bangers to lessen the battles.

Take away a teams only banger by an injury and the team has no bangers... leave the team one D-man that clears the crease and an injury leaves them without a player that can clear the crease. Grossmann was brought in to clear the crease and that is a major role for him. I'm not saying that Grossmann is essential and cannot be replaced, I'm just saying that he should be. I maintain that since Pronger has been gone the team has lost much of their toughness and edge in that area... reducing a hard hitter is not going to help. IMO L.Schenn is developing and Grossmann is doing his role as best he can... replace him... but don't eliminate his role entirely.
Not according to Meltzer as I posted in the Luke Schenn thread. I agree with Bill..we pretty much have a finished product with Luke. If Grossmann could stay healthy I would prefer him over Schenn to be honest. I knew Grossmann was playing poorly because he was mostly playing hurt last season. Otherwise, I'm not as down on him as others are. Luke Schenn on the other hand is expendible. Sadly we gave up a 30 goal scorer for a guy that you could have gotten for a second rounder and that's probably what we'll get or at least the equivalent in player trade...

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06-19-2014, 11:58 AM
  #205
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Not according to Meltzer as I posted in the Luke Schenn thread. I agree with Bill..we pretty much have a finished product with Luke. If Grossmann could stay healthy I would prefer him over Schenn to be honest. I knew Grossmann was playing poorly because he was mostly playing hurt last season. Otherwise, I'm not as down on him as others are. Luke Schenn on the other hand is expendible. Sadly we gave up a 30 goal scorer for a guy that you could have gotten for a second rounder and that's probably what we'll get or at least the equivalent in player trade...
With all due respect to Meltzer -- who has many of the same feelings I do on Flyers History and past players such as the appreciation and possible FHoF selection of Jimmy Watson, BTW... but I digress -- Luke is very, very young still... and while the times have changed, it still takes more time for D-man development... and with some it may take more. That said, I suppose I should have said L. Schenn is what he presently is and Grossmann Yada Yada.

Tell me one thing... if he could have been obtained with a second rounder, the why wasn't he moved by Toronto to one of the many teams who wanted him before? You are glancing over the fact that JvR was an extremely streaky player who only showed glimpses of his ability on occasion... and the Flyers were at that time deling with an excess of his position and a need of a D-man as they sought Weber and was obviously leaning towards letting Carle walk. IIRC both teams were feeling that a change of scenery was needed with each player and for the team a more needed position was targeted... Not saying that they were necessarily project players, rather that each player in trade could strengthen the other team and could very well be a deal that benefits both teams. Not to say that that was or was not the case by the fact that Toronto ended up very streaky and missed the PostSeason this season and the Flyers were also but made the Playoffs... JvR was a better player butb IMO was still not the poster boy for consistence through the entire Season. In the end you could certainly argue that at this point Toronto ended up with the better part of the deal... but down the line that could possibly change.

I also believe that Grossmann was playing hurt a great deal of the Season, but even with that, he has his role and plays hurt... which to me is admirable. If Hexy can replace him with a player who stays healthier and can do that role, then by all means move him and replace him... but please don't move him just for the sake of doing it. After all is said and done I think the Flyers respect and like Grossmann as a player much more than the average Flyers fan does... and that is really what counts most.

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06-19-2014, 12:05 PM
  #206
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as the playoffs showed speed kills. The Flyers lack footspeed especially on the back end, never mind the fact that they lacked production from the defense from guys not named Streit. Too many guys who do the same thing.
the defense needs fixing. anyone who thinks we are fine going with this same top 6 is mistaken.

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06-19-2014, 12:05 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by FreshPerspective View Post
Not according to Meltzer as I posted in the Luke Schenn thread. I agree with Bill..we pretty much have a finished product with Luke. If Grossmann could stay healthy I would prefer him over Schenn to be honest. I knew Grossmann was playing poorly because he was mostly playing hurt last season. Otherwise, I'm not as down on him as others are. Luke Schenn on the other hand is expendible. Sadly we gave up a 30 goal scorer for a guy that you could have gotten for a second rounder and that's probably what we'll get or at least the equivalent in player trade...
Not that I'm Luke's biggest fan or think he's an integral part of the team, but it's VERY rare for a defenseman to be a finished product at 24.

Defensemen continue developing for a while. Sometimes into their 30s. Honestly, I could see Luke as the type of guy who bounces around before putting it all together when he's like 27 or 28.

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06-19-2014, 01:33 PM
  #208
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Both powerforwards and defensemen take some aging.

That being said: I haven't really seen any gains from L. Schenn year to year to make me say: Yeah, by 29 he'll be a stud.

Even Kimmo took awhile to figure it out, but, IIRC, one could see a clear progression in his game.

L.Schenn isn't going to ever be Brian Boitano on ice.

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06-19-2014, 01:45 PM
  #209
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I've posted my additional arguments about L Schenn in the L Schenn thread...

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06-19-2014, 01:56 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Not that I'm Luke's biggest fan or think he's an integral part of the team, but it's VERY rare for a defenseman to be a finished product at 24.

Defensemen continue developing for a while. Sometimes into their 30s. Honestly, I could see Luke as the type of guy who bounces around before putting it all together when he's like 27 or 28.
You realize that is a decade of development period? Im all for being patient with young players but 10 years is absolutely ridiculous. No player, not a single one is worth waiting that long for. Especially not one with a mediocre ceiling like Schenn.

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06-19-2014, 03:06 PM
  #211
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I've posted my additional arguments about L Schenn in the L Schenn thread...
Don't be ridiculous, this is the Schenn thread now.

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06-19-2014, 06:15 PM
  #212
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You realize that is a decade of development period? Im all for being patient with young players but 10 years is absolutely ridiculous. No player, not a single one is worth waiting that long for. Especially not one with a mediocre ceiling like Schenn.
That decade of development spans back to when he was 17 off of what you quoted... that is starting pretty young... It is not unusual to see a D-man hit his stride in his mid-twenties... Ideally any team would like all their drafted/obtained players to reach it as early as possible, of course, but with D-men and some others more patience is required when looking at the long haul... The fact that Luke accelerated to the NHL early makes it look bad, but he is still a young D-man... one with a bit of NHL seasons in his resume. He may never be what people had expected him to be, but he may still have a long and good career ahead of him... conversely, though he may not... we'll have to wait to know for sure.

Hexy could trade him off cheap and hope it doesn't come back and haunt the Flyers... that down the line we are not reading about how the Flyers should keep their young talent and cite the L. Schenn trade (away) as a prime example.

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06-19-2014, 06:16 PM
  #213
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Don't be ridiculous, this is the Schenn thread now.

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06-20-2014, 04:02 AM
  #214
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So with Timonen giving us another year, that makes for a perfect transition to getting Sekera next year, right? Right?

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06-20-2014, 08:32 AM
  #215
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So with Timonen giving us another year, that makes for a perfect transition to getting Sekera next year, right? Right?
Stop it, this is the Schenn thread now. All Timonen talk should be in the "Player Discussion: Luke Schenn" thread.

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06-20-2014, 12:45 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
With all due respect to Meltzer -- who has many of the same feelings I do on Flyers History and past players such as the appreciation and possible FHoF selection of Jimmy Watson, BTW... but I digress -- Luke is very, very young still... and while the times have changed, it still takes more time for D-man development... and with some it may take more. That said, I suppose I should have said L. Schenn is what he presently is and Grossmann Yada Yada.

Tell me one thing... if he could have been obtained with a second rounder, the why wasn't he moved by Toronto to one of the many teams who wanted him before? You are glancing over the fact that JvR was an extremely streaky player who only showed glimpses of his ability on occasion... and the Flyers were at that time deling with an excess of his position and a need of a D-man as they sought Weber and was obviously leaning towards letting Carle walk. IIRC both teams were feeling that a change of scenery was needed with each player and for the team a more needed position was targeted... Not saying that they were necessarily project players, rather that each player in trade could strengthen the other team and could very well be a deal that benefits both teams. Not to say that that was or was not the case by the fact that Toronto ended up very streaky and missed the PostSeason this season and the Flyers were also but made the Playoffs... JvR was a better player butb IMO was still not the poster boy for consistence through the entire Season. In the end you could certainly argue that at this point Toronto ended up with the better part of the deal... but down the line that could possibly change.

I also believe that Grossmann was playing hurt a great deal of the Season, but even with that, he has his role and plays hurt... which to me is admirable. If Hexy can replace him with a player who stays healthier and can do that role, then by all means move him and replace him... but please don't move him just for the sake of doing it. After all is said and done I think the Flyers respect and like Grossmann as a player much more than the average Flyers fan does... and that is really what counts most.
Not was but is a streaky player who still takes games off. He had to go hands down. I do wish we could have gotten more for him but I am very pleased with Luke. He is playing better and I still see him only getting better. I have been watching pro hockey since the 60's and I do not claim to know everything except that no one can predict the future and that we all have an opinion. I am sticking with my knowledge of the game and I am not ready to give up on Luke. The young man will be a leader for us on the backend and will be a fine pro. Cracks me up but it was not that long ago when defensemen played in the AHL for years before they played in the NHL and still got their name on the cup. And as far as Grossmann goes, I to agree with your statement. You win with players like these and that is what counts the most.

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06-20-2014, 09:30 PM
  #217
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Not was but is a streaky player who still takes games off. He had to go hands down. I do wish we could have gotten more for him but I am very pleased with Luke. He is playing better and I still see him only getting better. I have been watching pro hockey since the 60's and I do not claim to know everything except that no one can predict the future and that we all have an opinion. I am sticking with my knowledge of the game and I am not ready to give up on Luke. The young man will be a leader for us on the backend and will be a fine pro. Cracks me up but it was not that long ago when defensemen played in the AHL for years before they played in the NHL and still got their name on the cup. And as far as Grossmann goes, I to agree with your statement. You win with players like these and that is what counts the most.
It must be an 'old-timer's' thing, huh?... We Children of the Sixties who cut our teeth on Eddie VanImp -- who as a 27 year old rookie was only beat out for the Calder Trophy by the immortal Bobby Orr, and no one else -- Joe Watson, Barry Ashbee and all the other D-men who paid their dues in the 'A' and developed in the Bigs before they were deemed ready to play at the top NHL pairings... The Bobby Orrs were the exception and not the rule in jumping in with a bang on the backline... And back then, with 6 to 12 teams and really mostly five man D-Units with the 19 man dressed rules, there was less desire to rush a player who had to play against a condensed Forward group. We learned well, and to this day remember, that D-men take more time to develop and to have patience... and we just might see them suddenly bloom.

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06-21-2014, 04:39 AM
  #218
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Stop it, this is the Schenn thread now. All Timonen talk should be in the "Player Discussion: Luke Schenn" thread.
OK, that's cool, too. I like the Schenns. Especially Andrej Schennkera

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06-21-2014, 05:25 AM
  #219
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Just for the record, I don't think Sekera will be available next year. This or his career season last year was just a flash in the pan.

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