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Old
06-19-2014, 02:39 AM
  #176
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
B.S. Rangers were excellent and deserved to be there. They certainly did not look out of place and ran with LA nicely. In fact, they led more than they trailed, I'm pretty sure.
Came here to see 2014 Rangers and wasn't disappointed. I calculated the Rangers trailing 70 minutes out of 370 total minutes, including never in 3 games. A couple of calls go right or a couple of posts go in in OT and they're up 3-2 (though likely still lose the series). The Rangers lost 3 games in OT (2 in double OT), the other game they lost they outshot LA 32-15. I think that the Rangers were the only team to not get blown out once by the Kings and you can argue they looked better in defeat than the other three teams.

Edit: This was obviously not a response to you, but to the person you quoted.

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Old
06-19-2014, 09:36 PM
  #177
GWOW
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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
Wrong

Casey's G.A.A. that reg season was 2.98. Pretty darn good for back then. There were only 6 goalies to play at least half the season and post a better G.A.A. than Casey. Not to mention, he was above .500 on a team with a winning % of 33.75.

Ed Belfour 2.47
Don Beaupre 2.64
Patrick Roy 2.71
Andy Moog 2.87
Kelly Hrudey 2.90
Chris Terreri 2.91

Playoffs wise he was the same. Until that final atrocious game 6 of course.

There was a 3 or 4 year window where he was hovering around top 8-10 in the league, at times even a little better. He made the All-Star Game in '93, too.

To say he stunk is ridiculous.

Bob Gainey and Bobby Clarke built that team not by accident. He put together a good mix of veterans, grit, and defense - acquiring players like Brian Propp, Bobby Smith, Marc Bureau, etc. And he game planned accordingly.

The defense was far from awful, too. Mark Tinordi for example tied the franchise record for goals by a defenseman in one playoff with 5. He was a force physically and defensively too. That was his coming out party. So much so that he earned himself a spot on that 1991 Canada Cup team. The rest of the guys just went about their business and it was really a win by committee effort overall.

The game plan vs Chicago was to stay out of the box, and let them do the retaliating. Also, expose Belfour by going upstairs on him. It worked. The North Stars PP was 15 for 54 (27.8%), while the Hawks went 6 for 31. So clearly, discipline was huge here. As was Casey. And I specifically recall Shane Churla skating away from I believe Stu Grimson. Not because he was scared, but because of the game plan.

*Casey's G.A.A. this series was 2.55
SV% of .904
Outshot the Hawks 222-159 (135 vs Casey in 5 games / 26 per)

Against St.Louis, Gavin and Duchesne were key. They were assigned to shadow Hull and Oates, and they did a darn good job - as the dynamic duo combined for just 13 points in the 6 games. Thats basically a point per game each. A far cry from expectations. The North Stars' PP was an incredible 10 for 34 (29.4%), while the Blues - who had more opportunity - were just 7 for 41 (17.1%). Clearly Minnesota's PP was major, but so was goaltending, the penalty kill, and shutting down Hull and Oates.

*Casey's G.A.A. this series was 2.76
SV% of .909
Outshot by the Blues 177-164 (175 vs Casey in just under 6 games / 30 per)

Against Edmonton, it was speed. Outskate them, get ahead early and stay ahead. And that's exactly what they did in 4 of the 5 games that series. Minnesota's PP was 7 for 31 (22.6%) while Edmonton's was 4 for 26 (15.4%). Decent PP, pretty good penalty kill, very good goaltending.

*Casey's G.A.A. this series was 2.54
SV% of .900
Outshot Edmonton 148-131 (110 vs Casey in 4 1/3 games / 25 per)

In the Final, the challenge was to stop - or slow down - Mario Lemieux. Clearly this is where they fell shy. Had Lemieux remained out, there's a good chance the North Stars capture Minnesota's only championship. The PP here was a dismal 1 for 33 (3%), while the Pens were 7 for 38 (18.4%).

*Casey's G.A.A. this series was 4.40
SV% of .863
Outshot by Pittsburgh 184-179 (153 vs Casey in the better part of the 6 games / 32 per)

The powerplay (4th best at 23.0% - 4th overall that playoff) was a large factor, but so was the penalty kill (4 shorties), so was Gainey's game planning, and so were the veterans like Bobby Smith and Brian Propp who combined for 8 GWG's, and youngsters like Mike Modano (20 points in 23 games) and Mark Tinordi, and so was Casey's goaltending.

Clearly the wheels fell off in that last series, in every way, more specifically that last game.

But you're completely wrong with your assessment. You're right that the PP was dynamite, but you're wrong about everything else and your overall assessment. There was much more going on there.

Kudos to anyone who read all of that. You must be as bored as I am.
The Stars defense outside of Tinordi was garbage. Their forwards were generally responsible.

I mean, this is not debatable: Wilkinson, Chambers, Dahlquist, Giles and Glynn were beyond brutal 5-on-5.

They can be good defensively and good in goal and be outscored by such a wide margin at even strength. They weren't yielding a lot of shots but the scoring chances were premium.

And you're stat watching. Go back and watch the games if you can. Casey had one of the worst five-holes in the league.

Casey allowed four goals in 8 of his final 16 playoff games, and he was absolutely hot garbage in the SCF before the Game 6 blowout.

And making the All Star Game two seasons after the 1991 playoffs has nothing to do with this conversation.

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Old
06-19-2014, 09:55 PM
  #178
Doctor No
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
And you're stat watching. Go back and watch the games if you can. Casey had one of the worst five-holes in the league.
Five-hole goals count just as much (not more) than other goals.

I watched Casey for most of his career - the stats accurately reflect what I remember.

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Old
06-20-2014, 01:54 AM
  #179
tjcurrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Stars defense outside of Tinordi was garbage. Their forwards were generally responsible.

I mean, this is not debatable: Wilkinson, Chambers, Dahlquist, Giles and Glynn were beyond brutal 5-on-5.

They can be good defensively and good in goal and be outscored by such a wide margin at even strength. They weren't yielding a lot of shots but the scoring chances were premium.

And you're stat watching. Go back and watch the games if you can. Casey had one of the worst five-holes in the league.

Casey allowed four goals in 8 of his final 16 playoff games, and he was absolutely hot garbage in the SCF before the Game 6 blowout.

And making the All Star Game two seasons after the 1991 playoffs has nothing to do with this conversation.
I watched every game as they happened pal, thanks though.

And I dont give a rat's arse how the pucks went in, I proved that he wasn't "garbage" as you said, and nor was the defense. If they were garbage, the G.A.A. wouldnt have been what they were for all the rounds - and they were VERY good - save the Final. Nor would have the SV%, which were also very good in each but the Final. He can have the worst 5 hole of all-time, if he's letting in less than 3 of them per game and nothing else, he's doing okay now isn't he? Not every game Casey was stellar, but he was a big reason why they made it that far and if you don't think so you're on something.

Of those 8 of his final 16 games you mention where he let in 4, five of them were in the Final.
Here's one for you, in his first 17 games that playoff, he let in less than 3 goals nine times (one SO).

Quote from Bob Gainey after the playoffs that spring: "Jon's a guy who can be the hot goalie, and he brought his play up for the playoffs."

And the FACT is, his numbers were real good - and he followed up any bad game (only a couple until that Final series) with a damn good one.

That Penguins series, and yes I admitted the Chicago series they relied heavily on the PP, assaulted the overall stat lines of the North Stars regarding +/-

For example:

Mark Tinordi (-1 overall, +2 heading in to the Final)
vs Chicago -3
vs St.Louis +1
vs Edmonton +4
vs Pittsburgh -3

Shawn Chambers (-7 overall, -1 heading on to the Final)
vs Chicago -1
vs St.Louis +1
vs Edmonton -1
vs Pittsburgh -6

Chris Dahlquist (+4 overall, +6 heading in to the Final)
vs Chicago -2
vs St.Louis +4
vs Edmonton +4
vs Pittsburgh -2

Brian Glynn (Worst on team at -8 overall, -3 heading in to the Final)
vs Chicago -2
vs St.Louis +2
vs Edmonton -3
vs Pittsburgh -5

Neil Wilkinson (+1 overall, +1 heading in to the Final)
vs Chicago +1
vs St.Louis -1
vs Edmonton +1
vs Pittsburgh E

Johnson was +8 overall
Giles was a -4

So prior to that Final:
Dahlquist +6
Johnson +5
Tinordi +2
Wilkinson +1
Chambers -1
Glynn -3
Giles -4 (DNP in Final)

Forwards:
Modano was +3 until that Pittsburgh series where he went -4
Bellows was a -2 until that Final where he went -4
Bobby Smith was -1 heading in to the Final where he went -4
Neal Broten was +4 heading in to the Final where he went -2
And so on for most of the team.

So as you can see, most guys were okay there until that Penguins series, and the Hawks series of course did some damage to some guys too.

If you take away all the PP goals in each series and leave all other goals:

Chicago 10
Minnesota 8

Minnesota 12
St.louis 10

Minnesota 13
Edmonton 10

Pittsburgh 21
Minnesota 15

Keep calling them garbage all you want. Keep envisioning things how you want. Doesn't make you right. In fact it makes you wrong. The only thing "garbage" here is your assessment.

And I mentioned that he made the All-Star game 2 seasons later because his career was being brought up in the discussion. It's relevant.


Last edited by tjcurrie: 06-20-2014 at 02:43 AM.
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Old
06-20-2014, 02:43 PM
  #180
Skobel24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Alright I am not sure this was mentioned but how about the 2004 Flames? There's Iginla and Kipper. That's it. Kipper sort of came out of nowhere at that time while Iginla had a couple good years under his belt already. The rest of that team? Here are the leading scorers:

Iginla - 73
Conroy - 47
Donovan - 42
Gelinas - 35
Leopold - 33

I consider 2004 to be the lowest point of the dead puck era but these are stats you would have expected the Minnesota Wild to get, not a Cup finalist. To think, they came inches away from a Cup win as well.
That team was pure defense. All things considered, those numbers aren't bad, especially when Kipper had a GAA of 1.70

For the first half of the season, they had Turek (2.33 GAA) and McLennan (2.20 GAA).


Last edited by Skobel24: 06-20-2014 at 02:55 PM.
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