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2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread III

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06-23-2014, 09:43 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
It's simple. Go to capgeek and do the math (though the cap likely won't be as high as 71.1 mil, as listed on capgeek). Stastny at 7 mil means 2 of Stralman, Zucc, Staal and Brassard are gone.
stasny 6/6

staal and boyle gone.

gets us close.

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06-23-2014, 09:43 AM
  #152
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July 5 arbitration deadline. Brassard and Zuccarello can only get one year arbitration awards if it gets that far. The Rangers can request a 2 year arbitration award for Kreider if it gets that far. The first two are one year away from group III so it can only be a 1 year award.

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06-23-2014, 09:44 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Ail View Post
What makes a player more valuable now versus before the deadline?
1 - the extra 67 or so games they'll have with the team
2 - a greater ability for management to convince them to resign
3 - in an absolute worst case scenario, a higher salvage value in the event that this player needs to be traded, meaning if the team tanks, they can still flip the player for something at the deadline and mitigate some of their cost

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06-23-2014, 09:44 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
If you cut out Boyle and Poo, you're pretty much able to fit in Stastny comfortably. If you cut out Staal? You're able to get everyone in comfortably... although I don't know why you would when you have another round of free agents next year.

The point was to show that Stastny could be fit under. I'm not in favor of adding him, but seeing as we have a rather depleted farm... i'm sure the only tangible thing we can do is add by only giving up financial assets rather than both financial and physical.
No, you don't understand. Those 10 players don't include Boyle and Pouliot. If you sign Stastny to a $7m contract, you then have $16.5m to spend on 9 players. You still have to resign Zuccarello, Brassard and Kreider, which will probably cost $10m, at least, leaving $6m for 6 players. Pouliot and Boyle might not be back, but they'd have to be replaced on the roster. You'd be allocating $1m per player for a 2RD, 3LW, 4LW, 4C, 13F, and 7D. It simply isn't enough. Trading Staal opens up nearly $3m (once the return is accounted for). $9m to fill those slots is still not enough.

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06-23-2014, 09:44 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
stasny 6/6

staal and boyle gone.

gets us close.
wouldn't even have to shed Staal... Stralman and Boyle you would

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06-23-2014, 09:44 AM
  #156
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Why is it unrealistic, exactly? Staal would be classified under "stud defenseman" in many GM's books. His last name alone carries significant weight and value.

Ottawa wants a young 2nd line player, a top prospect, and a draft pick for Spezza, a 32 y/o often injured player that would likely take the 2nd line center position wherever he goes.

Vancouver wants a similar package for Kesler, a 2nd line center who is often injured and north of 30.

Yet we can't demand a similar package for a younger guy who is more dominant than both of them at his position?

Young 2nd line player and draft pick. That's all i'm asking for, and I think its pretty realistic. That's the value we should seek.
You cant call Staal a stud defenseman, and then turn around and say Connor Allen can be an adequate replacement, yet you keep doing it. He'll net so much in a trade and be easy to replace. Its fantasyland.

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06-23-2014, 09:46 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
If you're talking about a UFA... a whole season to sign said player?
How often does that happen? You don't need a whole season to sign a player unless you are Mr. Hardball Glen Sather.

I would argue the opposite and say a player is more valuable at the deadline when teams know what they need for a chance to win, or even just make the playoffs, and thus are willing to overpay.

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06-23-2014, 09:48 AM
  #158
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Stastny isn't taking a pay cut. The Avalanche are trying to give him a pay cut and that's not going too well. He has a tough agent in Matt Keator who will go for every dollar if the Avalanche do not pay.

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06-23-2014, 09:48 AM
  #159
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Dude, that cap space is not just for a center. Wat **** konjots pls.

Also, the board overvalues prospects because we live in a cap world now where you have to rely on your cheap, high potential prospects to come in and make a difference. Detroit learned that a long time ago.
No, this board lives in a world where impractical trades don't ever exist. It usually never gives the benefit of the doubt to the desperate or stupid GM that overpays.

It completely disregards the fact that many GM's value certainty over potential.

And again, I'm not insisting that we sign Stastny, but it could totally fit if the management wanted him... and it's much more of a possibility than many on here will like to admit.

If you think that i'm in favor of adding Stastny for 7 years and watch him become Richards 2.0, you're mistaken.

The only thing I'm advocating for is trading Staal while his value is high and for a young player that will hopefully slot into our core for years to come.

Those type of trades happen often, especially by teams trying to win with their cores now - i.e. Detroit with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Or teams that are trying to take the next step and add a veteran guy to their younger-ish locker room - i.e Minnesota or Colorado.

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06-23-2014, 09:48 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
July 5 arbitration deadline. Brassard and Zuccarello can only get one year arbitration awards if it gets that far. The Rangers can request a 2 year arbitration award for Kreider if it gets that far. The first two are one year away from group III so it can only be a 1 year award.
Thanks

So would you expect the Rangers to take them to arbitration? Or because they can only be one year deals they want to avoid arbitration unless they have to if the player takes them?

Also can teams only take 2 players to arbitration or is it they can only have 2 hearings scheduled regardless of who takes whom?

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06-23-2014, 09:49 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You cant call Staal a stud defenseman, and then turn around and say Connor Allen can be an adequate replacement, yet you keep doing it. He'll net so much in a trade and be easy to replace. Its fantasyland.
We would definitely take a step back defensively with trading Staal. those in favor of moving him if you can get a center who is young and can put with Stepan realize that.. but we would also have an improved offense even if you take a slight back step on defense. I think we have proven we can't win it all with just our defense.. (We've come close twice).

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06-23-2014, 09:49 AM
  #162
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Realistically, would a team trade for the rights to Stralman or Boyle? If the Rangers know they aren't resigning these guys they should look to deal them for draft picks.

Is that even plausible considering teams can start talking to free agents on Wednesday?

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06-23-2014, 09:50 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
Young 2nd line player and draft pick. That's all i'm asking for, and I think its pretty realistic. That's the value we should seek.
Which young player? Which team is giving up that package for Staal?

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06-23-2014, 09:50 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You cant call Staal a stud defenseman, and then turn around and say Connor Allen can be an adequate replacement, yet you keep doing it. He'll net so much in a trade and be easy to replace. Its fantasyland.
Well said.

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06-23-2014, 09:52 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
1 - the extra 67 or so games they'll have with the team
2 - a greater ability for management to convince them to resign
3 - in an absolute worst case scenario, a higher salvage value in the event that this player needs to be traded, meaning if the team tanks, they can still flip the player for something at the deadline and mitigate some of their cost
Agree to disagree, see above.

What about value to the Rangers? Would it not be more adventageous for a team at this crucial point in their roster selections going forward to roll with Staal until March and decide if he is either expendable or a key piece going forward that needs to be signed? What if none of the young defensemen look ready? Play Staal until March. If no one still looks poised to take his minutes, keep him even if you can't resign him because he will help you win a 'Cup. Trade his rights in the off-season. Worst case scenario trade him and trade for another LD that will help in the playoffs.

Not to mention if Stralman doesn't get signed here soon, Marc Staal will be most likely.

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06-23-2014, 09:53 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You cant call Staal a stud defenseman, and then turn around and say Connor Allen can be an adequate replacement, yet you keep doing it. He'll net so much in a trade and be easy to replace. Its fantasyland.
I think that is how you can sell him. My personal opinion on his play is that he's solid, and could be a very adequate 1st line pairing defender for a team with the space to put him there. I also think he'll look better on a more defensive minded team that isn't about transition hockey and defensive pinch ins that spotlight mobile defenders that can move quickly north-south.

I also think his last name will bear a higher package in return.

As for my opinion on Allen, it's a hope, not a fact. You could be right on him. I could be wrong. He may not be able to handle the 2nd line duties. But from what i saw in Hfd, and the game he had up here, he was calm, composed, limits his mistakes, has really good positioning, is mobile, a big body, and will provide similar offensive output to Staal.

I think with a defensively responsible partner like Stralman or Klein, he'll blossom into a very important depth player for us. And most importantly, he won't be making anywhere near 6 million...ever.

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06-23-2014, 09:53 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
wouldn't even have to shed Staal... Stralman and Boyle you would
if we could go

stasny
stepan
brass
moore

down the middle and keep staal and resign poo and the rest of our rfa's i could live with stralman getting overpaid elsewhere and letting go of boyle for jt miller full time.

slats is pretty good at doing deals and getting under the cap. we cant drtaft worth a damn but slats is good at this part of his job.

all i know is this. we need to be better offensively. and that starts up the middle.

acquiring one of the young dynamic centerman being discussed here will cost too much.

its stasny or grabo.

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06-23-2014, 09:54 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Which young player? Which team is giving up that package for Staal?
Why is it impossible for Rangers fans to overvalue or even fairly value our players? Yet teams like the Senators and Canucks ask for similar packages for players that are worse.

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06-23-2014, 09:56 AM
  #169
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Just wondering.. when the Rangers made the Gaborik trade, didn't they want J Moore because they thought he would become a top 4 dman?

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06-23-2014, 09:56 AM
  #170
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Staal would return quite a haul if the Rangers were to trade him.. I dont even think this is a question.

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06-23-2014, 09:57 AM
  #171
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Well said.
Indeed. The thing is it doesn't have to be Allan that replaces Staal. The Rangers MIGHT feel like John Moore is ready to take over top 4 minutes. I'm not saying that's the case OR that I agree with that line of thinking.

I'm amazed how many fans are on the trade Staal bandwagon. The Rangers are going to take a hit losing Stralman. To lose Staal and Stralman would be a MAJOR hit.

With that said if a team will overpay for Staal I would consider moving him. I don't know if July is the best time to move a player like Staal. I could be wrong but I have a hunch that defensive-defenseman have more value at the deadline. I see no reason why the Rangers have to play the "sign now OR we will trade you now" card with Staal. They could wait to maximize value.

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06-23-2014, 09:57 AM
  #172
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No, this board lives in a world where impractical trades don't ever exist. It usually never gives the benefit of the doubt to the desperate or stupid GM that overpays.

It completely disregards the fact that many GM's value certainty over potential.

And again, I'm not insisting that we sign Stastny, but it could totally fit if the management wanted him... and it's much more of a possibility than many on here will like to admit.

If you think that i'm in favor of adding Stastny for 7 years and watch him become Richards 2.0, you're mistaken.

The only thing I'm advocating for is trading Staal while his value is high and for a young player that will hopefully slot into our core for years to come.

Those type of trades happen often, especially by teams trying to win with their cores now - i.e. Detroit with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Or teams that are trying to take the next step and add a veteran guy to their younger-ish locker room - i.e Minnesota or Colorado.
Whether or not you are on the Stastny express is irrelevant to me. The bottom line is, at six or seven million his contract will cripple this team and cause them to lose key players who just helped them to the Finals. If they sign Stastny management is even more idiotic than we ever envisioned and this team is in big doodoo.

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06-23-2014, 09:57 AM
  #173
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Indeed. The thing is it doesn't have to be Allan that replaces Staal. The Rangers MIGHT feel like John Moore is ready to take over top 4 minutes. I'm not saying that's the case OR that I agree with that line of thinking.

I'm amazed how many fans are on the trade Staal bandwagon. The Rangers are going to take a hit losing Stralman. To lose Staal and Stralman would be a MAJOR hit.

With that said if a team will overpay for Staal I would consider moving him. I don't know if July is the best time to move a player like Staal. I could be wrong but I have a hunch that defensive-defenseman have more value at the deadline. I see no reason why the Rangers have to play the "sign now OR we will trade you now" card with Staal. They could wait to maximize value.
Why would we lose both?

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06-23-2014, 09:58 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Just wondering.. when the Rangers made the Gaborik trade, didn't they want J Moore because they thought he would become a top 4 dman?
Yes. And he still could, if he somehow learns to become more consistent. He has the physical tools to be similar to McD, but not the same instincts and iq.

He'll likely remain on the 3rd pairing for his career, unless he gets a coach that can make good habits instinctual.

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06-23-2014, 09:59 AM
  #175
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Whether or not you are on the Stastny express is irrelevant to me. The bottom line is, at six or seven million his contract will cripple this team and cause them to lose key players who just helped them to the Finals. If they sign Stastny management is even more idiotic than we ever envisioned and this team is in big doodoo.
If they sign Stastny, I'll be right there with you on the complain train ().

But neglecting to even admit that it's actually feasibly possible? You're just setting yourself up for a very deflating low.

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