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2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread III

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Old
06-23-2014, 12:50 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
i think, if the Rangers have the chance to get an impact forward...and i mean an IMPACT forward, they should move Staal and re-sign Stralman.

I want a forward that puts up big numbers, or if they can get a bunch of cost controlled younger assets with tremendous upside, like was mentioned earlier, i would do that.

The idea of trading Staal and Zucc (roughly 10 mil in cap space) for Smith-Pelly, Etem, and Vatanen (under 3 mil in cap space) is VERY appealing to me. Thats 7+ mil extra to play with. You can hold on to that cap space, you can use it to get Stralman back, you can offer a LITTLE more to Boyle to keep him, etc.

i posted this earlier in response to that trade being proposed...
That's an excellent trade proposal imo, I'd hate to say goodbye to Zuke but I'd have to make that trade if it was proposed to me.

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06-23-2014, 12:51 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
if you had two guys of Moore's capability, at Moore's price, that $1.4MM difference doesn't make what you spend on the top four look too bad, especially if you look at the defense as a hole, as opposed to analyzing the top four.
I think, no matter the name on the back of the jersey, 6 million is too much to spend on a 2nd line pairing.

If we had never drafted Staal, and spent 6 million dollars on *someone* to play on our 2nd defensive pairing... I doubt anyone would be happy.

But the bias that we as fans have towards Staal is making people project far crazier plans than mine.

6 million is too damn high. 5.5 is too damn high. That alone should make the Rangers sell high.

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06-23-2014, 12:52 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
It's not necessarily ironic that some on this board don't want to dismantle a very good D by removing a core piece in Staal.

Some like myself would want to hear the proposed trade before agreeing or disagreeing with a move like that because like it or not, it would weaken us on the blueline. McIlrath not being ready has hurt this team in that regard.

I honestly feel Sather will go into the season with JT Miller as #3 C. He'll reevaluate halfway through the season and at the deadline and if he's not cutting it then, he might move Staal at that time.
in a cap world you have to be smart on where you allocate your dollars.

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.

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06-23-2014, 12:56 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Glen Teflon Sather View Post
That's an excellent trade proposal imo, I'd hate to say goodbye to Zuke but I'd have to make that trade if it was proposed to me.
yeah i think i would too, and i think it makes sense for both teams. Anaheim is busting at the seams with talent in their minors. they would get the 2 established players, the guys who have proved it. the rangers would be getting the "upside" and the cap flexibility. its a win-win for both teams imho.

the rangers bottom 6 in that scenario would be pretty much an all-rookie type scenario.

but, again, it woudl be hungry, fast, and extremely talented. Smith-Pelly is a garbage goal kinda guy, Etem is VERY fast and talented, Miller and Fasth are also both fast, talented, etc.

you could move them around the bottom 6, really you could essentially be playing 2 first lines, and 2 3rd lines in that forward group.

play the top 2 lines the bulk of the PP minutes, give the kids the chance to prove themselves.

it addresses a LOT of our issues, and it gives you cap space to spare. Grabovski would be key there...they would need to get someone like him.

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06-23-2014, 12:56 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
in a cap world you have to be smart on where you allocate your dollars.

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.
Very much agreed.

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06-23-2014, 12:57 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
At the end of the day, Hank bailed out the team more often than the defense did, and the offense didn't come up when it was needed most.

It seems pretty evident to me what needs to be focused on.

There is certainly a case to be made, also, that Girardi and Staal were our two worst defenders in the LA series. Staal added that same performance the series before, against the Habs.

Considering that Staal's value is at its highest right now, that 6 million or even 5.5 million per is too high for a 2nd pairing defender and will probably be received that way by the management, and the opportunity presents itself to improve on offense by selling high on a player that will likely not be a part of this team's future in the event that Anton Stralman is resigned... well I would tend to lean that it is a better decision to part ways than not.
I don't disagree with the bolded. However, if you are removing Staal for an upgrade at center (or for more offense) the move would have to be a damn good one in order to offset weakening the D. Would said move be enough to get us to the next level or is it a net lateral move (i.e. more goals for, but also more against).

A question you hope the GM has the answer to, BEFORE he sells off a pretty good dman who's been a big time part of this team for a lot of years.

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06-23-2014, 12:57 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
in a cap world you have to be smart on where you allocate your dollars.

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.
Nicely said.

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06-23-2014, 01:03 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
I think, no matter the name on the back of the jersey, 6 million is too much to spend on a 2nd line pairing.

If we had never drafted Staal, and spent 6 million dollars on *someone* to play on our 2nd defensive pairing... I doubt anyone would be happy.

But the bias that we as fans have towards Staal is making people project far crazier plans than mine.

6 million is too damn high. 5.5 is too damn high. That alone should make the Rangers sell high.
It's a 2nd line pairing that was charged with going against top lines. I haven't done the analysis to determine what the real fair market value for that person is, so I am trying not to throw around a lot of numbers, and further, I really haven't taken the time to go through the team as a whole and see the numbers today and projected out in a few years, but do think one big reason this team has been successful the last few years has been the play of its top four defense and its goaltending, along with a whole team effort. What it has lacked has been that big game scoring threat, which I think is more along the lines of the style of play and it would be tough to get without a major overhaul, which would be tough to do to a team with the success of the Rangers over the last three seasons.

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06-23-2014, 01:06 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
in a cap world you have to be smart on where you allocate your dollars.

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.
It wouldn't be decimated, but for much of the season it seemed as though Staal helped float Stralman's boat higher. You get a defenseman inferior to Staal to partner with Stralman and I would fear how that duo may fare, especially against the league's top lines.

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06-23-2014, 01:10 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
I don't disagree with the bolded. However, if you are removing Staal for an upgrade at center (or for more offense) the move would have to be a damn good one in order to offset weakening the D. Would said move be enough to get us to the next level or is it a net lateral move (i.e. more goals for, but also more against).

A question you hope the GM has the answer to, BEFORE he sells off a pretty good dman who's been a big time part of this team for a lot of years.
I'll be repeating what I think the most sensible thing to do would be, but:

-Resign Stralman (4 mill for 4/5 years)
-Doing so allows flexibility with trading Staal
-Either trade Staal for a young center or a young winger
-Play Conor Allen on the 2nd line pairing with Stralman
-Dependent on the forward position that you get for Staal, resign who you can on the 4th line
-Give Miller a nice cup of coffee, if he's cutting it, trade Brassard at the deadline for either more young pieces OR in part of a package for a 2nd pairing defender if Allen/Moore can not cut it.
-All of this, in turn, gives you even more cap flexibility for next year's group of our own free agents that need to be resigned

So:

There's a lot of flexibility here once you resign Stralman.

You can trade Staal for a young center, and then have Miller on the 3rd line wing for his cup of coffee. You're not throwing Miller into the fire while valuing if Brassard is worth 4.5 mill.

At the same time you're valuing J. Moore and Allen as assets moving forward. If they're not cutting it, trade for another LD that can eat those minutes at the deadline.

Or, trade Staal for a big winger like Mantha. In the event that happens, i'd be OK with Brassard/Miller 2/3c's because it adds more scoring in other places. Poo got us 36 pts. Mantha could certainly increase that significantly.

But that adds even more flexibility. Mantha will be on an ELC for 3 years.

Get more draft picks. Let's say you get a 2nd w/ Mantha for Staal. Let's also say Callahan resigns. We'd have 3 2nd round picks this year. Trade two for a late first. Restock on your system.

MSL, Stepan, Hagelin, Talbot, Staal are all FA's next year. By my count, That could be like 23 million dollars tied up for all 5 of them. That's unreal. Maximize Staal's value. I don't know how many more times I can repeat that.

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06-23-2014, 01:11 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
It's a 2nd line pairing that was charged with going against top lines. I haven't done the analysis to determine what the real fair market value for that person is, so I am trying not to throw around a lot of numbers, and further, I really haven't taken the time to go through the team as a whole and see the numbers today and projected out in a few years, but do think one big reason this team has been successful the last few years has been the play of its top four defense and its goaltending, along with a whole team effort. What it has lacked has been that big game scoring threat, which I think is more along the lines of the style of play and it would be tough to get without a major overhaul, which would be tough to do to a team with the success of the Rangers over the last three seasons.
True, but I think once it is playoffs time, a big reason that our defense doesn't get as much flack as it can get is because Henrik makes some unreal stops.

I don't think the top 4 is really as dominant as they appear to be on paper.

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06-23-2014, 01:20 PM
  #312
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Henrik did, but the defense was often under pressure and had to earn their pay. Slowing down Crosby is not an easy thing to do. Staal got in his head..or whacked him in the head. I guess for me, I'd be keeping Staal over Stralman if it came to that. Unfortunately, on a team with depth, Staal seems to be the best trading piece this team has. But again, I worry about how that unit, again which often went against top lines, does with him gone. Stralman seemed to get a good deal more recognition while playing with a healthy Staal. That's the issue I'm currently struggling with. We shall see what happens. Staal ain't going anywhere if Stralman bolts next week.

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06-23-2014, 01:21 PM
  #313
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This issue with Staal and Stralman now is why I wasn't in favor of extending Girardi, who is at best the 3rd best player in our top 4 and I think has way more of a Rangers bias than Staal. Around the league, people think of Girardi the same way a lot of people think of Brooks Orpik. Not great company. Obviously the bad postseason makes Girardi look even worse but I really don't think he's ever done anything to warrant the contract he got and aside from blocking shots and occasionally playing physically what does he do especially well? I'd love to have Girardi for 4mil AAV, not 5.5 (or the 7 he's on the books for next year)

Buying out Richards unfortunately doesn't actually free up much cap space, which is what a lot of people are missing. You'd have to assume they're going to keep Kreider and Zuc, that right there is 6-7mil extra in cap space. See ya later Richards money. Where do they upgrade? Probably nowhere. Lindberg and Miller should get a shot at 3C and 4C and I really do have a feeling that AV will fall in love with Duclair. Fits right into the system and could replace Pouliot on the line with Brass and Zuc (if they can keep both). Whether you re-sign Stralman or not I think there won't be much room to maneuver and you're going to downgrade at forward. It's not an encouraging sight, to be honest.

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06-23-2014, 01:21 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Henrik did, but the defense was often under pressure and had to earn their pay. Slowing down Crosby is not an easy thing to do. Staal got in his head..or whacked him in the head. I guess for me, I'd be keeping Staal over Stralman if it came to that. Unfortunately, on a team with depth, Staal seems to be the best trading piece this team has. But again, I worry about how that unit, again which often went against top lines, does with him gone. Stralman seemed to get a good deal more recognition while playing with a healthy Staal. That's the issue I'm currently struggling with. We shall see what happens. Staal ain't going anywhere if Stralman bolts next week.
I'm hoping in the next few days we get a tweet along the lines of "Stralman finalizing deal with Rangers".

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06-23-2014, 01:35 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.
This is expertly said. Absolutely the truth.

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06-23-2014, 01:40 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
in a cap world you have to be smart on where you allocate your dollars.

if Stralman walks, you bring back staal, its a no brainer..but i think if you can hang on to stralman, you probably should seriously consider moving staal to upgrade elsewhere. our D is very strong, but im not sure it would be as decimated as others do without Staal. we didnt have staal for HUGE portions of the 2 years before that and we finished 4th and 3rd defensively over those 2 years.
Yea and the year we didn't have him we got routed in the playoffs. The year prior to that our defense was exhausted and we got ousted by a much more rested NJD team.

This team has built out from Hank, breaking that up would be stupid.

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06-23-2014, 01:43 PM
  #317
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Yea and the year we didn't have him we got routed in the playoffs. The year prior to that our defense was exhausted and we got ousted by a much more rested NJD team.

This team has built out from Hank, breaking that up would be stupid.
Perhaps. But a much likelier outcome is that an increase in scoring would help Hank even more.

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06-23-2014, 01:44 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
yeah i think i would too, and i think it makes sense for both teams. Anaheim is busting at the seams with talent in their minors. they would get the 2 established players, the guys who have proved it. the rangers would be getting the "upside" and the cap flexibility. its a win-win for both teams imho.

the rangers bottom 6 in that scenario would be pretty much an all-rookie type scenario.

but, again, it woudl be hungry, fast, and extremely talented. Smith-Pelly is a garbage goal kinda guy, Etem is VERY fast and talented, Miller and Fasth are also both fast, talented, etc.

you could move them around the bottom 6, really you could essentially be playing 2 first lines, and 2 3rd lines in that forward group.

play the top 2 lines the bulk of the PP minutes, give the kids the chance to prove themselves.

it addresses a LOT of our issues, and it gives you cap space to spare. Grabovski would be key there...they would need to get someone like him.
I don't think any deal involving the Rangers giving up valuable roster pieces for "upside" or cap space is prudent for a team coming off a trip to the SCF.

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06-23-2014, 01:45 PM
  #319
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Jurco 15th overall for Nash @ 5million

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06-23-2014, 01:45 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Rust Heisenberg View Post
Staal.
I don't think you get Granlund for Staal.

I don't see Staal as a need for Minnesota.

If that's the case, then I look to move Staal to Edmonton for Perron

Similar age, similar cap hit with Perron having an additional year to run.

Plays the LW which if we did go out and add a Stastny would provide the following top 9

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Perron - Stastny - St. Louis
Hagelin - Brassard - Zuccs

that would be a solid top 5 front nine in the NHL

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06-23-2014, 01:47 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I don't think you get Granlund for Staal.

I don't see Staal as a need for Minnesota.

If that's the case, then I look to move Staal to Edmonton for Perron

Similar age, similar cap hit with Perron having an additional year to run.

Plays the LW which if we did go out and add a Stastny would provide the following top 9

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Perron - Stastny - St. Louis
Hagelin - Brassard - Zuccs

that would be a solid top 5 front nine in the NHL
The whole getting a very good player in return for Staal package is probably somewhat contingent on the team's chances of being able to resign Staal.

Places like Minnesota, Colorado, and Detroit are very appealing places for hockey players.

Edmonton? I'd imagine Staal and his agent would be

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06-23-2014, 01:49 PM
  #322
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I don't think any deal involving the Rangers giving up valuable roster pieces for "upside" or cap space is prudent for a team coming off a trip to the SCF.
You can say the same about the Blackhawks off their cup win in '10. They still had to dismantle a little to keep some of their key pieces.

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06-23-2014, 01:49 PM
  #323
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Jurco 15th overall for Nash @ 5million
No. Just no.

Nash is not going anywhere. People need to get over it.

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06-23-2014, 01:51 PM
  #324
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You can say the same about the Blackhawks off their cup win in '10. They still had to dismantle a little to keep some of their key pieces.
Zucc is a key piece and the 'Hawks had no choice. Also they WON. It's a lot easier to break a team up after you just won a 'Cup.

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06-23-2014, 01:52 PM
  #325
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Jurco 15th overall for Nash @ 5million
I don't want to move Nash but I'd consider this. Really high on Jurco.

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