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Old
03-25-2007, 11:19 AM
  #26
BBKers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
NYR 06-07
Straka-Nylander-Jagr=32+25+28=85
Callahan-Avery-Shanahan=20+18+40=78
Prucha-Cullen-Ortmayer=21+17+5=43
Holly/Orr-Betts-Hossa

I think we would be able to have 4 solid lines next season;
Hossa-Nylander-Jagr
Callahan-Avery-Shanahan
Straka-Cullen-Prucha
Hollweg/Orr-Betts-Ortmayer


...
*Nice research. I Closely agree to what you are saying. But my ideal 2007-2008 squad scenario follows below:

Lundquist - needs to be signed at about 4 M/year
Montoya

Souray signs at $5 M - Tyutin
Mara resigns - Girardi
Rozsival - Staal

Baranka/Liffiton/prospects that develop + an ev midseason pickup (or whatever Malik rends in return) as insurance.

Gone - Rachunek + Pock (not resigned), Malik - traded to an idiot 4 some pix, Strudwick (left in the minors as emergency callup?), Ozo, Kaspar

An interesting statistic with Malikstein is that the Rangers are 35-28 with him playing and 4-9 with him off the ice (OTL:s counted as a loss). Do not ask why.

Prucha - Nylander resigns at $3,3 M for 2 years - Jagr
Shanny resigns at $4,5 M - Avery resigns - Callahan
Straka - Cullen - Hossa
Laraque sign 1 year- Dubinsky - Ortmeyer

Reserves: Hollweg, Dawes, Korpedo, Orr ?, Ibister (in the minors) and several more prospects to come ready to break through...
Anisimov will be a star one day - but give him 2 more years! Mark these words

Betts (and ev Orr) are dumped outside the division for picks, nitty gritters.

Here is a combo of speed, toughness, technique and firepower that could make a serious run next year.

This would all actually also work cap space wise. There would even be room to bring in a nice UFA rental as a center to depthen the squad around the dealing deadline. What is interesting and very importatant to emphasize in the cap NHL is to be able to foresee this possibility and utilize it. Whoever puts a team together without having capspace/tradeable prospects available at the deadline will not be able to use this excellent way to strengthen their team near playoff time in this very new and rejuventaing fashion. I believe the Rangers have a possibility to do both in the future...
This would also provide excellant opporotunity to replace the "big 4" on offense successively through homegrown talent, trades and ev UFA:s in the years to come as well...

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Old
03-25-2007, 12:15 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
The hope is that Avery can become a 20-25 goal scorer and about a 50 point player if he plays with scoring players. That's good, but that's not really an ideal fit. This team has to get away from accepting "passable" results from too many positions.
You do know he has 43 points, right Edge? Slot him with some decent guys and he puts up numbers. That's how he is. He's a 2nd line center.

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Old
03-25-2007, 02:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Rx View Post
You do know he has 43 points, right Edge? Slot him with some decent guys and he puts up numbers. That's how he is. He's a 2nd line center.
Yes Jon, I am aware of that.

I'm also aware that 4 goals and 7 points have come in the last 6 games so that brought the numbers up a bit.

The question is whether he can get to that 25 goals and 50 points and admitedly even that might be a little on the lower side for a second line center.

There's a fine line between a guy who can bring offense to the table and is ADDED by better linemates and a guy who see's a HUGE drop if not with those linemates. That will be what the Rangers have to decide.

17 goals and 45 points are not usually second line center numbers. Those the "hope is" comment.

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Old
03-25-2007, 02:48 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich View Post
prucah - drury - jagr
cally - avery - shanny

top 2 lines next year ;-)
Espn Insider (not the be all and end all of sources) reports that the rangers are currently negotiating an extension and a raise w/ nylander. id be highly surprised if we ink drury.

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Old
03-25-2007, 03:23 PM
  #30
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Not sure what makes...

Avery an ideal second line center when Cullen, with decent numbers last season, and coming on strong towards the end of this season, is not an ideal second line centerman. Still thinking that a second line center needs to get the puck to a guy like Avery, i.e., be more of a playmaker, a kind of player this team does not have a lot of.

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Old
03-25-2007, 03:32 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Avery an ideal second line center when Cullen, with decent numbers last season, and coming on strong towards the end of this season, is not an ideal second line centerman. Still thinking that a second line center needs to get the puck to a guy like Avery, i.e., be more of a playmaker, a kind of player this team does not have a lot of.
Frankly, I just think Avery is straight up a better player than Cullen.

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Old
03-25-2007, 03:46 PM
  #32
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He may be better than Cullen, but that alone doesn't make him a legitimate 2nd line center.

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Old
03-25-2007, 04:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
You have to be careful with just going off points Ola.

I get the point that you're trying to make but the problem is that our third line has points boosted by playing with guys on higher lines, not by playing together as a third line this season.

That's kind of the problem with comparing them to any of those teams. Cullen without Shanahan takes a big hit, as does Prucha without his second line chances.

The other problem is that those lines, though third line have also been going up first and second lines VERY frequently because they are so balances. You put our lines in that situation and this team is in trouble.

So I get what you're trying to do, I just think it goes more beyond the numbers. It includes their ability to wear team's down, balance their efforts and compliment each other. Right now the Rangers scoring isn't balanced. The lines we're quoting are HIGHLY impacted by two players - Jagr and Getzlaf. Shut them down and you shut down the offense because the third line isn't going to score (as said their number aren't inflated by chances on higher lines).

And that is the reason those teams are amongst the top 4 and the Rangers have been struggling to make the playoffs.

I think ideally you need a 70-point center to build a team, but you can get away with it if you have a guy who is complimented by his linemates. Sean Avery is good, but even with linemates 16 goals and 30 some odd points is pushing for a second line center.

Avery is a good player, but I also know how this board tends to raise the bar on good players and set them up to disappoint.
I see now that I was a bit unclear in the posts I made above, my point was not that we are nearly as good offensivly as Anaheim is. If I am compare us with Anaheim, I just become more convinced that this team doesn't got what it takes to win a cup, Anaheim is much better then us.

My point is, the goal for us should to ice a team next season that ought to be able to get in the PO's. If they do better, we will have a ton of room to improve, if they do worse, which I doubt we would with Lundy looking like he is for real, we could start to build for the post Jagr era, but I doubt that would happend.

With that goal on the horizon, my point where to argue that right now, our scoring from the depth lines aren't a major problem. Its more important to have lines that can hold their own, that can win the games in the games. Tonight our 2nd and 3rd line where constantly pushed back by NYI, they were crushed, thats not acceptable, and I wouldn't want us to enter next season with anyline that can't do better then that. Now, I do think that 3rd line isolated are good enough, though they didn't get any help from playing with Struds, and it were the 2nd night of a back to back, and the 6th in a 6 games in a 9 days stretch.

But, I think the 2nd lines play tonight are proof why we need more players who are playing in a position that they really can master, just like you have stated for a long time. Shanny are playing like someone 38 y/o. Avery and Callahan didn't manage to play over their heads. Its with the country in that stage you suddenly end up in a world of trouble, it falls like a cardhouse.

Hossa is out now, but I do wonder if we can count on him beeing that player that can give us the necessary depth, time will tell. If we can't count on him to get back in form, or Shanahan to get back to early season form, I am starting to belive that we maybe might need to get some reinforcements before the start of next season.

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Old
03-25-2007, 06:34 PM
  #34
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I think that for NOW Avery is okay in the role of a 2nd line C on New York Rangers. Ideally, on the good team he is a great checking winger who is capable offensively. But we don't live in the perfect world and Rangers are not a very good team (nevermind the record - praise the King). Hence, Avery is between Calahan and Shanahan, and I think it's working.

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Old
03-25-2007, 07:43 PM
  #35
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Jon...

I dunno about Avery being 'better' than Cullen. Or by better, what exactly is meant. Avery brings a different style. I actually think Cullen is better defensively and better on faceoffs. I think he's as good, if not better, a goal scorer, and he may even be a better playmaker. Avery has a style that may fit other players better, but I'm not sure that makes him 'better'. Still think both are better-suited as wingers.

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Old
03-25-2007, 10:27 PM
  #36
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Personally I think Cullen and Avery would work great as third liners and linemates.

Having said that I'm also a believer that lines are strictly enforced either so Avery, Cullen, etc can get some icetime on a higher line or the PP, etc.

I think that's the mark of a good team, on a given night the second line might get less time than third so on and so forth. To me that's the mark of a good team with interchangable parts.

To me the lines are more of a common reference point more than a way of saying "A guy is only this good" or "Player X is going to skate in 70 contests on the third line".

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Old
03-29-2007, 07:08 AM
  #37
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http://www.nypost.com/seven/03292007...rry_brooks.htm

Quote:
If Renney is serious about granting more ice time to Ryan Callahan, he needs to move the 22-year-old winger back to his natural right side. Callahan never has looked better than he did when he skated for most of two games on a line with Avery and Matt Cullen. Neither, for that matter, has Cullen, who played with more abrasiveness with Avery on his unit.

After missing a month, during most of which he was unable to do any physical work, Shanahan is essentially in the second week of training camp while his team is in a sprint to the finish. He's behind, in every way; every way other than presence, that is. Just the fact that he interceded in a post-whistle scrum involving Avery late in the second period, putting himself at risk should a hot-head have decided to take a swing at him, is testimony enough to his dedication and leadership.

Avery has played center the past four games, but he'll shift to the wing if Renney decides to move Martin Straka from Michael Nylander's and Jaromir Jagr's left side to center another unit. The coach will do that if he feels Jagr at this point is more effective playing with a big, physical, straight-line winger than with a pair of artists. If that's the call, Brad Isbister will return after sitting the last three games and thus bump a forward.

But who would it be?
Some random quotes from Brooks in the Post, the whole article is pretty interesting though.

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Old
03-29-2007, 07:18 AM
  #38
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Personally, I have a little hard time to see that Shanahan couldn't play in Isbisters role on our top line, I mean he is so adjustable, and we are in the middle of a extremely important stretch. The adjustment for Shanny is that he have to play the way Nyls and JJ wants too, unless he got a opertunity to shoot, meaning that at times if he gets the puck he should just hand it over to one of his linemates. Fundamentally they think a bit diffrent.

My instincts tell me that if you got a sniper like Shanahan, who are 38 y/o and just comming back from a injury, you put him in a situation where he is as isolated as possible to do what he does best, and thats shooting the puck, and spending time in the attacking zone.

We can't even come close to providing that enviorment for Shanny, besides next to Nyls and Jagr...

Shanny-Nyls-JJ//Shanny gets a opertunity to concentrate at shooting the puck.
Avery-Cullen-Callahan//Would be a really feisty line, Callahan gets a opertunity on the right side, where he belongs.
Prucha-Straka-Ortmayer//This line is kind of "unproven". But I really like it. Straka would play in a role where he is expected to build up the play, not finnish it.
Holly-Betts-Orr

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Old
03-29-2007, 07:22 AM
  #39
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If Prucha is down on 3rd then I hope he will some extra PP time, being right handed an all. Really like him and hope to see as much as possible of him on the ice.

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03-29-2007, 07:34 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
If Prucha is down on 3rd then I hope he will some extra PP time, being right handed an all. Really like him and hope to see as much as possible of him on the ice.
Yeah, thats really what matters the most for a offensive player, getting PP time.

It would be really interesting to see him with Straka and Ortmayer though. It would be a completly new role for Prucha. He have either played with guys that plays his style, but also are very dominant on the ice, marganilizing Pruchas role. Or with players who doesn't really play his style.

It would be extremely interesting to see what Prucha could do on a line where he carrys a big part of the burden, but also got a linemate in Straka who thinks the game like him. Maybe thoose two really could develop some chemistry, and suprise a bit. They would of course play a really straight forward game with allot of speed and forechecking, like Prucha-Cullen-Orts did, but it would be awsome if they could mix that with some nifty offensive plays, some tempo changes in the neutral zone ect.

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03-29-2007, 07:45 AM
  #41
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If we put Shanahan on the first line we have a few different combinations to choose from for our 2nd and 3rd lines.

1. Shanahan - Nylander - Jagr
4. Hollweg - Betts - Orr


1.
Prucha - Cullen - Callahan
Straka - Avery - Ortmeyer

2.
Prucha - Straka - Callahan
Avery - Cullen - Ortmeyer

3.
Avery - Straka - Callahan
Prucha - Cullen - Ortmeyer

I like number two the most ...

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Old
03-29-2007, 06:51 PM
  #42
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So Marcel Hossa is no longer on the team?



With the team we have now *(barring injuries) - I would use

Prucha-Nyles-Jagr
Callahan-Avery-Shanny
Hossa-Cullen-Straka
Hollweg-Betts-Ortmeyer

With Shanny on a 1st line with Nyls & Jagr - I see lots of goals going in the wrong goal - as Shanny would then be the guy used defensively - and that is the wrong role for him to fill imo. He needs a puck feeder to get into a good scoring groove - also a "backchecking" guy. Avery might not be the best option (you could switch him with Straka) for this - but with what we got on the squad this is probably it. I would maybe try to squeeze Dubinsky into the lineup taking Betts spot - but B Betts does fill a very important shutdown + PK role on the team that should not be underestimated. I would make a run at signing G Laraque (unsigned UFA) and use him instead of Orr (who has been good as of late - except for the bonehead call against Mtl - I must admit) as a real intimidating force that does have some hockey skills to boot as well. But if they are in the mood of acquiring a true 2nd center - and basically keeping most of what is there now - I could see the team looking like this

Prucha-Nyles-Jagr
Callahan-2nd line center-Shanny
Avery-Cullen-Straka
Hossa-Betts/Dubinsky-Ortmeyer

A team composed like this would be an offensive threat every time they stepped on the ice. If these lines do not work (with this roster) there are a plethora of other possibilities to try. And if that does not work - there are several guys in the good to use as tradebait to bring in new players. It would work cap-space wise as well (not with Datsyuk or Briere as they are too highly priced). Say trading Immonen, Malik, Orr and a pick/prospect or two for a young talented 2nd C that could be oozed into this spot (or try Dubinsky??) that could be available here. Signing Souray as a nr 1 D and bringing up Staal and Montoya to replace Weekes and Rachunek contracts. It would work.

Just my thoughts though...

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Old
03-29-2007, 07:45 PM
  #43
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Well... there's the big 4 in centers this offseason in Briere, Gomez, Drury, and Datsyuk. That's also the order I like them in. I don't see Buffalo letting Briere go though, so Gomez might be the best option for us, as I've heard that things have gone kind of sour in Jersey with him, and he's not having a great year either. He could come for cheaper than that 6 million he was looking for.

We need one of those 4, and a defender like Souray, Schneider, or Stuart.

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Old
03-29-2007, 09:52 PM
  #44
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Ola and BBK great posts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
*Nice research. I Closely agree to what you are saying. But my ideal 2007-2008 squad scenario follows below:

Lundquist - needs to be signed at about 4 M/year
Montoya

Souray signs at $5 M - Tyutin
Mara resigns - Girardi
Rozsival - Staal

Baranka/Liffiton/prospects that develop + an ev midseason pickup (or whatever Malik rends in return) as insurance.

Gone - Rachunek + Pock (not resigned), Malik - traded to an idiot 4 some pix, Strudwick (left in the minors as emergency callup?), Ozo, Kaspar

An interesting statistic with Malikstein is that the Rangers are 35-28 with him playing and 4-9 with him off the ice (OTL:s counted as a loss). Do not ask why.

Prucha - Nylander resigns at $3,3 M for 2 years - Jagr
Shanny resigns at $4,5 M - Avery resigns - Callahan
Straka - Cullen - Hossa
Laraque sign 1 year- Dubinsky - Ortmeyer

Reserves: Hollweg, Dawes, Korpedo, Orr ?, Ibister (in the minors) and several more prospects to come ready to break through...
Anisimov will be a star one day - but give him 2 more years! Mark these words

Betts (and ev Orr) are dumped outside the division for picks, nitty gritters.

Here is a combo of speed, toughness, technique and firepower that could make a serious run next year.

This would all actually also work cap space wise. There would even be room to bring in a nice UFA rental as a center to depthen the squad around the dealing deadline. What is interesting and very importatant to emphasize in the cap NHL is to be able to foresee this possibility and utilize it. Whoever puts a team together without having capspace/tradeable prospects available at the deadline will not be able to use this excellent way to strengthen their team near playoff time in this very new and rejuventaing fashion. I believe the Rangers have a possibility to do both in the future...
This would also provide excellant opporotunity to replace the "big 4" on offense successively through homegrown talent, trades and ev UFA:s in the years to come as well...

Great post, and I agree with alot of it, and i like the direction you went with it. Especially the resigning of Nylander near the $3,500,000 mark. To me it totally makes more sense than aquiring a bigtime 2nd or 1st line center for for rediculous money...IMO the Datsuk's, Briere's, Drury's or Gomez's will all be too pricey to entice to play here. I only really differ on a few accounts...

1st) as much of a fan I am of the rough stuff, I wouldn't want to see Laraque here. I think Orr is the cheaper alternative, and although he's not the fighter big Georges is, Orr has proven he deserves a spot here. Plus, even though Laraque is the better fighter, he often decides not to play his role, which would take the team right back to the Sandy MacCarthy years. IMO Orr always does his job, and again saved the team money as he could probably be resigned at $500k.

2nd) As much of a Brendan Shannahan fan as I am, I would opt to not resign him in the offseason. I am a big proponent to building from within, and the further development of players already in the system. Plus I believe the team has to pay Jagr's full salary this season, and if that is the case the extra 4 or 5 million wil gobble up cap space quick, when IMO there are cheaper alternatives already in the system. Loved the NA leaership, loved having a great player like Shanny...but I have totally changed my opinion of resigning him when looking at the long term picture of the Rangers building a monster.


3rd) Rachunek I think would be a good defenseman to stick around some. 26 yrs old, good shot from the point, and can join the rush well. Plus he too knows the system, and could probably be resigned at a decent number.

The money saved by opting not to resign Shanny, IMO should be put to use to solidify an area of concern this team has not addressed for the past 10 seasons. A big nasty blueliner, that is capable of a regular shift, that will make the Rangers defenseive zone a not so hospitable place. Add a booming point shot, and a new PP weapon and you have Sheldon Souray! Yeah..I like the sound of that alot!

Resigning Lundqvist is a no-brianer...he would probably make similar money to DP...just not for 15yrs!!!


Say goodbye to Betts with Brandon Dubinsky nipping at his heels for a roster spot...Oh wait, they already signed Betts through 09???? I like the guy, but IMO he was totally expendable and the more time he spends here he only hampers the development of others waiting to get thier chance to play. If he could be traded I would do it, for picks, considerations or whatever.

For Hossa...he is the most intriguing of the bunch as he really showed why he deserved to play here. I can't believe that I would prefer a European player over a guy like Shanny...but with the salary cap in place the 25 yr old Hossa is a low risk gamble on a guy who already knows the system, and before the injury has thrived under Renney. Hossa is a big kid that can work the left wall, and also has the quick release that IMO could make him dangerous. Not only would I resign the RFA, but I would play him with Jagr and Nylander and bump him up to the first line. I guess it's more of a risk after the knee injury, but what's the worst that can happen? Straka has to be brought back up to the 1st line? It's not like the trio combined for one of the best point producing lines the Rangers have ever had!!!

I totally agree with you thoughts on Malik. I don't care about the record with him in the lineup. I think it's a decieving stat. I just think Malik could and should be traded, and whatever the return...I think the team is better w/out him.

Now for the only other UFA I think the team needs to pursue. Look out West at Taylor Pyatt. Here's 6 reasons why I think he's a very attractive FA at the age of 25 yrs old.
1st) He is 6'4" 220lbs
2nd) He is a damn good skater for a kid that big.
3rd) He is starting to find his offensive upside.
4th) He is a decent forechecker and in what I have seen of him positiones himself well.
5th) Little brother is also in the system, and has a good chance of making the club one day. Thinking down the road it could be a nice tandem.
6th) Whether he plays with Cullen or Avery, I think he fits in the system well.


My ideal team would look like this... Hossa (resign) Nylander (resign) Jagr
Pyatt UFA signing) Avery (resigh) Callahan
Straka Cullen Prucha (resign)
Hollweg (resign) Dubinsky Orr/Ortmeyer (both resign)

Souray (UFA Signing) Tyutin
Rozsival Mara
Rachunek (resign) Girardi

Stall, and Liffiton ready for the call up.

and I could see the critism for the possible lack of a point producing 2nd line, but if the icetime is distributed evenly among the 2nd and 3rd IMO and add in the 4th line, IMO this team has the combination of size, speed, toughness, and leadership all wrapped up in a young hungry squad.

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03-31-2007, 07:36 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I think we would be able to have 4 solid lines next season;
Hossa-Nylander-Jagr
Callahan-Avery-Shanahan
Straka-Cullen-Prucha
Hollweg/Orr-Betts-Ortmayer
Judging by Renney's comments:
Quote:
To hear Rangers coach Tom Renney tell it, it no longer matters whom the Rangers are facing when it comes to deciding whether Orr gets a lineup spot.
Quote:
Colton's a must, no matter who we're playing," said Renney, who chastised himself and heard heat from above for scratching Orr Feb. 17. "He's a valuable guy for us. He's got a physical dimension to him. He manages his shifts well. He manages the puck well.
That would mean that Orr is in the lineup as a 4th liner. Hollweg should be as well. I know that he is not putting up many points, but when you have a guy who is SO good at what he does (6th in the NHL in hits as of a few weeks ago, despite only playing 4th line minutes) as a 4th line role player, why get rid of him? With that said, if both Orr and Hollweg are on the 4th line, that means that Ortmeyer gets pushed up a line. Forget about what I precieve to be utter silliness in not playing Prucha on the top-2 lines (a well-covered debate for another time). What it comes down to is that with Orr on the 4th line, there is no room for Callahan, Hossa or Prucha. I do not think that you can get away from that. I believe that both Orr & Hollweg will skate on the 4th line next year and Renney will simply move Ortmeyer up to the 3rd line. That means that Renney will have to make a decision. Not resign Shanny or not resign Hossa. Or leave Callahan in the AHL. IMO, the Rangers need to leave two spots open for Callahan and Dubinsky to claim. But not to rehash old debates, I really think (even if Dubinsky is left in Hartford for another year) that Renney is going to have to decide between Hossa and Callahan.

The other argument is with your lines. Avery and Callahan are not 2nd line players. Sure, they could be good enough to fit in, but they would look quite fine flanking Cullen on a 3rd line. Off course with Ortmeyer playing one of those wings, it would mean that one of the two (probably Avery) will get pushed to the 2nd line. All that adds up to no Hossa. Just once, I would like to field the top-2 lines with at least 5 top-6 forwards.

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03-31-2007, 07:44 AM
  #46
bubba5
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Avery is not really fit to be a center, I know he played it in Juniors and he has done a decent job the last couple games but over the long haul I think it would not work out as well. I still think when Hossa comes back the lines should look something like this:
Hossa-Straka-Jagr
Prucha-Nylander-Shanahan
Callahan-Cullen-Ortmayer
Hollweg-Betts-Orr

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03-31-2007, 08:02 AM
  #47
True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
Avery is not really fit to be a center, I know he played it in Juniors and he has done a decent job the last couple games but over the long haul I think it would not work out as well. I still think when Hossa comes back the lines should look something like this:
Hossa-Straka-Jagr
Prucha-Nylander-Shanahan
Callahan-Cullen-Ortmayer
Hollweg-Betts-Orr
What happened to Avery?

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03-31-2007, 08:16 AM
  #48
bubba5
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oh crap, whose avery, just kidding, still hung over. Avery would definitly go to the wing on the 2nd line, then prucha and the guys on the 3rd and 4th lines could be moved around. I like Callahan and I would hate to see him moved to the 4th line.

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