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Old
04-01-2007, 02:17 AM
  #26
ChrisB
 
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What two free agent signgings could replace Smyth and Pronger?

Hmm one of Phillips, Timonen, or Markov? As well as someone like Smyth, Briere, Drury.

The defense would still be deficient from when we had Pronger but the possibility is there to bump things up a notch.

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04-01-2007, 02:22 AM
  #27
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You don't replace a Pronger, or even a Smyth.

The Oilers will retool this summer and I think the bigger priority will be to add a young star to pair with Hemsky and gain puck movement off the blueline.

But you don't replace pieces like that, the 2006 team is over with (sad but true), it's time to move on and build around a different core of players with different talents.

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04-01-2007, 07:44 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th_Liner View Post
yeah that logic got us tarnquivst, hejda, sykora, nedved at a "good price"..

diamond in the rough is a rare occurance.. not something you should expect.. the player's ability is usually correlated with his price just like everything else in the world..
So using the Oilers as a comparison is another opportunity for you to crap on them?

The Senators replaced Chara and Pothier with Preissing and Corvo. Granted they got Preissing by way of trade but my point is that Lowe has the tools and the assets to replenish his team, whether by trade or FA signing and he doesn't have to match salary for salary. Paying more doesn't always mean getting more. The Rangers have had one of the higher payrolls in the NHL and they missed the playoffs for how many years now?

Total cost for Chara and Pothier this season: $10M
Total cost for Corvo and Preissing this season: $3.05M.

Assuming Preissing was to re-sign for $2.5M, the Ottawa salaries would be $5.0M

Now if you check the standings, Ottawa finished with 113 points last year. They have 102 this year with 3 games to go and by all accounts Corvo and Preissing are solid contributors (although it was rough for Corvo at the start).

My point: You don't have to replace a $6.5M salary with a $7M because it most cases, it's impossible. If Lowe goes out and signs Timonen for $4.5M or $5M (year I know he may get more) by my math is lower than what they paid Pronger.

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04-01-2007, 10:33 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BleedOil83 View Post
I like Tencer, but it isn't exactly groundbreaking. I'm nearly positive every point mentioned has already been in the papers this year.

Nevertheless, I'm very much in agreement.
but he wrote it after that post-game show. I listened to it and it was like "fire lowe, fire mactavish, fire Joey (well maybe not fire Joey, but surely everyone else)"

i don't particularly like MacTavish, but Tencer makes some good points. And who would we replace MacTavish with if he went?

And it's looking more and more like 6th and 10th overall picks. They should be decent picks.

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04-01-2007, 11:11 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
What two free agent signgings could replace Smyth and Pronger?

Hmm one of Phillips, Timonen, or Markov? As well as someone like Smyth, Briere, Drury.

The defense would still be deficient from when we had Pronger but the possibility is there to bump things up a notch.
None of those defenceman are as good as Pronger, ad we won't sign any of them in any case. Most commentators seem to think resigning Smyth is very unlikely, and the same probably goes for Drury and Briere. In any case, would the EIG spend 6 million to sign Timmonen and 7+ million to sign Briere? No, absolutely not.

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04-01-2007, 11:17 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Rage View Post
None of those defenceman are as good as Pronger, ad we won't sign any of them in any case. Most commentators seem to think resigning Smyth is very unlikely, and the same probably goes for Drury and Briere. In any case, would the EIG spend 6 million to sign Timmonen and 7+ million to sign Briere? No, absolutely not.
But who is? Pronger wanted out and most "experts" will agree that when a player like Pronger demands a trade, you will never get equal return for him. So I think it's a moot point. There is just a small amount of NHLers that can be considered in the same stratosphere as Pronger, probably less that there are NHL teams.

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04-01-2007, 11:33 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Yanner39 View Post
But who is? Pronger wanted out and most "experts" will agree that when a player like Pronger demands a trade, you will never get equal return for him. So I think it's a moot point. There is just a small amount of NHLers that can be considered in the same stratosphere as Pronger, probably less that there are NHL teams.
That's why you will need more than one UFA signing to replace him. It doesn't help when you trade him for scrubs.

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04-01-2007, 02:43 PM
  #33
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The way I look at it, Lowe has this summer and next season to prove that he deserves an extension. IMO any good buzz he picked up from that Cup run has been more than negated by this utter disaster of a season. He's got a busy summer ahead of him, he has zero laurels to rest on.

As for the coaching staff, I'm fine with MacT staying on but I really think the assistants under him are in need of a shakeup. The PP has been simply not good enough for at least 3 seasons now, whatever they're doing is not working.
Very good points. People are pissed at Lowe for not aquiring the pieces that we were missing this year, but the price was just too high. If we would have gotten one or 2 D, we might have squeaked into the playoffs, but at what cost? Prospects and picks for UFA's that we would lose in the off season? Not smart roster management.

I give Lowe this summer to re-prove his worth as a GM. He's shown it before, and I think to an extent he showed it all this season by being patient. Lets see how he manages an utter wealth of young players, prospects and picks.

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Originally Posted by 4th_Liner View Post
i think the timing is so wrong for lowe this summer.. he knew he has to do something this summer but what's available as UFAs are far less attractive than last summer..

i think his best move is to overpay for a few UFA d-men for a couple of 1-2 year contracts.. that way he gets by with the PR and it doesn't mess up the core..
You're right about this years UFA's as opposed to last year, but I don't believe that Lowe will necessarily improve the roster through the UFA route. He has so many chips right now to work with. He has alot of young players pushing for roster spots, he has draft picks and established roster players he can move. I think he will make some trades to address our problems. IMO TB is the team that the Oilers should target as ownership want Feaster to further trim their payroll. You have to think Boyle or Lacavalier are possibilities to start anyway.

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04-01-2007, 07:43 PM
  #34
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So using the Oilers as a comparison is another opportunity for you to crap on them?
i am just pointing out how the line of logic "we can get the cheaper but just as good players" is flawed.. look at oilers track record whenever that line of logic is thrown out.. dopita oates peca + this year's chumps.. when's the last time we signed a player at the below-market price and got lucky?..

Quote:
The Senators replaced Chara and Pothier with Preissing and Corvo.
when you have 5 elite stars on your team.. losing 1 would not have an effect as dramatic.. it doens't mean what they replaced was just as good..

Quote:
Paying more doesn't always mean getting more. The Rangers have had one of the higher payrolls in the NHL and they missed the playoffs for how many years now?
ahh.. the extreme case argument..
what about the stars/wings/avs/flyers/jersey payrolls in the past years?.. and their performance?..
what about the oilers payroll and the performance in the past years?..

Quote:
If Lowe goes out and signs Timonen for $4.5M or $5M (year I know he may get more) by my math is lower than what they paid Pronger.
and we can expect less contributions from timonen than what pronger did too..

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04-02-2007, 12:29 AM
  #35
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Till this day, I'll always wonder if Lowe had considerable pressure from Lupul's Grandpa (EIG Investor) to bring Joffrey to Edmonton over Getzlaf, or McDonald.

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04-02-2007, 12:34 AM
  #36
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I could see Lowe fired, but the team that he built ends up doing very well. He may not have the time needed to reap the rewards of his trades. That's a risk that you take when you bring in young players in exchange for vets. That said, IMO he has done a very good job in most areas with the exception of the coaching staff.

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04-02-2007, 12:52 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Till this day, I'll always wonder if Lowe had considerable pressure from Lupul's Grandpa (EIG Investor) to bring Joffrey to Edmonton over Getzlaf, or McDonald.

Looking for a conspiracy?

When the switchover at board chair went from Hole to Nichols -- the ++ for the EIG was that they would get transparency into the business and hockey operation -- at a corporate planning level. The ++ for the business and hockey operation is that they get no interference on the day-to-day decisions.

I would bet that the owners might have their own opinions, ideas, and preferences regarding personnel decisions, but that Lowe's autonomy is probably way higher than most would believe.

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Old
04-02-2007, 01:06 AM
  #38
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Lowe and Mac T have one more year (maybe two) to prove what they can do. Guys, we did not LOSE Spacek and Samsonov. We signed them knowing they were free agents. We payed for one year of service and thats what we got. Lowe knew that and so we cannot make excuses that they bolted out of Edmonton for some strange reason. I like Mac T like many of you guys do, but something just doesn't sit right with the performance of the team. I can see if maybe Smyth and Pasani were struggling, or maybe Hemksy and Staios, or maybe Horcoff and Sykora but the whole bloody team!!!???? (Not counting Smytty and Stolly). When a player struggles for a year it is called a slump. When a whole team struggles it is called a disaster. I am really hoping we can turn it around next year but if the same thing happens then we need a change. It will prove that defensive minded Mac T cannot build a team given a bunch of high flying youngsters. Just seems like Lowe and Mactavish are trying to build this team with different mindsets.

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Old
04-02-2007, 01:59 AM
  #39
Matts
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BBO...I can't believe that you actually believe this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I could see Lowe fired, but the team that he built ends up doing very well. He may not have the time needed to reap the rewards of his trades. That's a risk that you take when you bring in young players in exchange for vets. That said, IMO he has done a very good job in most areas with the exception of the coaching staff.
he bends to Pronger and ends up with a poor package and he misreads the 94 situation and ends up with an even poorer package and you think he's done a very good job outside of coaching hires?

I know that you know better than this

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04-02-2007, 02:16 AM
  #40
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Dan Tencer...wow

Everything this kid writes should have an attachment that states that he basically works for the club and then people with an actual clue would know that young tencer is schilling instead of being an idiot.

I'm not gonna tackle the whole firing Lowe thing because I think Kevin should be either fired before the draft or he should be extended by a couple of years and that's because you either give him the time to complete his plan and thus ensure his next moves aren't geared towards a quick fix that drives a personal agenda of angling for his next job OR he fire him now and take the keys away before he further shags up. But I won't get into that because opinions that well thought-out aren't the ones that Dan's cutting off on air.

I'll just deal with his "opinions" on the trades and their aftermath.

1: __Pronger left and that's not Kevin's fault. Did the Oilers win the Pronger trade? Maybe down the line, but certainly not right now. They could have gotten Scott Niedermayer in return and they still would have lost the trade for right now...it was a tough spot to be in__

A tough spot to be in? No doubt. But Lowe made it tougher by bending to Pronger's will and getting the trade done as quickly as possible instead of say waiting until a real return was offered. What if that scuttled the '07 season? Well it's not like the additions of Smid and Lupul really helped us now did it? And the whole Neids thing is to laugh and vomit. The Oilers would've been much better off by a straight up trade of Norris candidates then magic beans and draft picks.

2: ___With Ryan Smyth, Kevin offered more than his hockey-sense told him he should have and Ryan still said no. He was an important part of the team, but by no means a superstar. It would have been ill-advised to ink a contract so heavily loaded in the last 2 years when he would be 35 and 36 years old. He got fair market return for Smyth who obviously didn't help the Islanders much since they'll miss the playoffs (granted, DiPietro's injury didn't help matters)___

Pure garbage from Tencer. I hope the Oilers look after this kid and keep him employed OR he winds up with a team that has a similar hold on his job in another local media because if Dan is stupid enough to believe what he wrote about Smyth, I dare say he'll never talk or write about hockey again.

If the 94 decision was about hockey sense then the Oilers would've given up the extra 100K for a guy that takes the tough min and comes out on top on a team loaded with guys who can't or up to this point haven't been able to do that. That would be using hockey-sense to make a decision. And the whole smacking 94 for not taking the Isles to the playoffs and then offhandedly including the injury to a goalie with a near .920 PCT who was backed up by junk in Dunham as perhaps 'another' reason why the isles won't make it, that's just friggin gold. This shows a bit of a conscience by Dan OR an admission that while he knows his public is stupid, they're not stupid enough to gloss over the fact that the Isles have fallen off with the departure of their star goalie. And the whole thing about market-value for Smyth? More crap. I can see anyone dealt and if it's a good package then I'm fine with it but if people want to fire Lowe because he misread how things would shake out with Smyth from the time they met last summer? Then that would be a valid point. It's not like Smyth told the boys all year he was gonna sign for their offer and then pulled the rug and said deal me. They knew he might walk so the onus is on them to trade him whenever they think they can get the best package. Market-value has nothing to do with anything when the Gm paints himself into a corner. Plus I guess Dan never read the Nolan quote about him the package the Oil received for 94 was the generic parcel the isles were pitching to everyone for a rental. That would lump 94 in with everyone but those who looked at his numbers would know he had more value and could've elicted a bidding war.

of course that would be acknowleding hockey-sense....the real kind and not the fake stuff that tencer clings to


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04-02-2007, 05:28 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Matts View Post
Everything this kid writes should have an attachment that states that he basically works for the club and then people with an actual clue would know that young tencer is schilling instead of being an idiot.
I was out with the CiO boys and BDHS last night when the topic of young Tencer arose. Those of us who've heard him all agreed - the man has a simply glorious radio voice.

Shame that he's so stupid - I'd tag "young" on there but there are some young guys here who know their stuff. You're nicer than me Matts - I'd just say that the guy is an idiot who happens to be shilling at the present time.

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Old
04-03-2007, 09:43 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post
Everything this kid writes should have an attachment that states that he basically works for the club and then people with an actual clue would know that young tencer is schilling instead of being an idiot.

I'm not gonna tackle the whole firing Lowe thing because I think Kevin should be either fired before the draft or he should be extended by a couple of years and that's because you either give him the time to complete his plan and thus ensure his next moves aren't geared towards a quick fix that drives a personal agenda of angling for his next job OR he fire him now and take the keys away before he further shags up. But I won't get into that because opinions that well thought-out aren't the ones that Dan's cutting off on air.

I'll just deal with his "opinions" on the trades and their aftermath.

1: __Pronger left and that's not Kevin's fault. Did the Oilers win the Pronger trade? Maybe down the line, but certainly not right now. They could have gotten Scott Niedermayer in return and they still would have lost the trade for right now...it was a tough spot to be in__

A tough spot to be in? No doubt. But Lowe made it tougher by bending to Pronger's will and getting the trade done as quickly as possible instead of say waiting until a real return was offered. What if that scuttled the '07 season? Well it's not like the additions of Smid and Lupul really helped us now did it? And the whole Neids thing is to laugh and vomit. The Oilers would've been much better off by a straight up trade of Norris candidates then magic beans and draft picks.

2: ___With Ryan Smyth, Kevin offered more than his hockey-sense told him he should have and Ryan still said no. He was an important part of the team, but by no means a superstar. It would have been ill-advised to ink a contract so heavily loaded in the last 2 years when he would be 35 and 36 years old. He got fair market return for Smyth who obviously didn't help the Islanders much since they'll miss the playoffs (granted, DiPietro's injury didn't help matters)___

Pure garbage from Tencer. I hope the Oilers look after this kid and keep him employed OR he winds up with a team that has a similar hold on his job in another local media because if Dan is stupid enough to believe what he wrote about Smyth, I dare say he'll never talk or write about hockey again.

If the 94 decision was about hockey sense then the Oilers would've given up the extra 100K for a guy that takes the tough min and comes out on top on a team loaded with guys who can't or up to this point haven't been able to do that. That would be using hockey-sense to make a decision. And the whole smacking 94 for not taking the Isles to the playoffs and then offhandedly including the injury to a goalie with a near .920 PCT who was backed up by junk in Dunham as perhaps 'another' reason why the isles won't make it, that's just friggin gold. This shows a bit of a conscience by Dan OR an admission that while he knows his public is stupid, they're not stupid enough to gloss over the fact that the Isles have fallen off with the departure of their star goalie. And the whole thing about market-value for Smyth? More crap. I can see anyone dealt and if it's a good package then I'm fine with it but if people want to fire Lowe because he misread how things would shake out with Smyth from the time they met last summer? Then that would be a valid point. It's not like Smyth told the boys all year he was gonna sign for their offer and then pulled the rug and said deal me. They knew he might walk so the onus is on them to trade him whenever they think they can get the best package. Market-value has nothing to do with anything when the Gm paints himself into a corner. Plus I guess Dan never read the Nolan quote about him the package the Oil received for 94 was the generic parcel the isles were pitching to everyone for a rental. That would lump 94 in with everyone but those who looked at his numbers would know he had more value and could've elicted a bidding war.

of course that would be acknowleding hockey-sense....the real kind and not the fake stuff that tencer clings to
C'mon. Take it easy on the kid . . .

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Old
04-03-2007, 10:00 AM
  #43
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Regardless of what Tencer writes, I find it amusing to find some people so pro Oilers and Lowe, MacT and team. I also find some so negative. Me, although I am first and foremost an Oiler fan, I am ready to see what the summer brings and go from there. Last year it was unbelievable what the Oilers accomplished and I enjoyed it immensely. I know all of you on here were in the same frame of mind. This season I think the fans had built up the team, and the media didn't help. I am not saying that the Oilers couldn't have done better this season, obviously injuries and a few players to say the least didn't perform as well as expected. I agree with Tencer on one thing, you don't scrub the whole project. I like what KLowe and MacT have for product on the ice, and in the minors with only a few exceptions. I just know its very easy to sit back after the fact and criticize, its also very easy to make moves in your own mind, when you don't know all the criteria. How do you know that Lowe didn't trade for Niedermeyer only to be told by Nied's agent that he doesn't want to play in Edmonton either? You don't know. Fact is, most players that make huge money don't want to play in Canada because of the tax structure. I am not so sure that isn't one of the main motivating factors for Pronger. Seems funny to me it was at income tax time that he first made his request. There are many mitigating factors when it comes to making trades, and wooing free agents. KLowe is not in control of all these factors, so blaming just him when it doesn't work isn't fair. I guarantee that he has tried everything you guys have mentioned, and more. Just a few thoughts that I thought I would put out there.

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