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Old Dog, New Tricks ( or "How to go from Standup to Butterfly after 40")

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Old
04-03-2007, 06:11 PM
  #1
ResidentAlien*
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Old Dog, New Tricks ( or "How to go from Standup to Butterfly after 40")

Hey all,
So this is the deal. I grew up playing goal all thru the 70's, so guys like Dryden, Parent, Plante etc were the inspirations and where I triedto get my technique. I was the starter for my rep team right up thru Juvi, so at one point I was pretty serious

Fast forward to today, 30 odd years later, and me, still in pretty good shape getting back in net. Although rusty, I can still stop anything from the top of the circles out, as well as hold my own with the kids half my age coming in on breakaways. My angles are good, my lateral movement is acceptable and my up and down time isnt as bad as I thought it might be, which brings me to my achilles....on ice wrister just off my right skate from ten feet out.

For the life of me, I can not stop this shot! There are only a couple "good" players around here who have found it (most of the others think they are crosby and just want to do the fancy dekes)
I dont remember what I used to do, and since all my tendencies/reflexes are that of a stand up style, I hesitate and get down to late. It's too close in for a skate save, I try to cheat and get picked off glove-side high. It is driving me nuts!!

Any other old-styler's that have made that switch to Butterfly or better yet "Hybrid" successfully?
What drills helped you the most?
Have you found a way to beat this shot or one that plagued you?

Or am I just too old and have no hope of ever getting this back??
Love to hear any thoughts, ideas or even stories of how you made the great comeback!

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04-03-2007, 08:21 PM
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I don't really see what your issue, maybe it's because I'm tired but from what I understand you mean an on-ice wrist shot on your blocker side(assuming you're not full right)... seems simple enough(of course dependent on the situation) turn your skate sideways and kick it towards the corner or if it's slow enough push it to the corner with your stick. Maybe you're overthinking it? Maybe you're just rusty? I don't know.

I'd watch Brodeur, learn his little tricks in his hybrid half butterfly. It would take a while to learn something of a montreal butterfly style at this point.

BTW you can find a lot of great information on gsbb, just be sure to search before you post or they will eat you alive. Best of luck!

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04-03-2007, 08:58 PM
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Thanks for your reply, but I guess Im doing a lousy job at describing it!
Really the problem is learning to adjust to more of a BF style game for me, I just thought there might be others out there in the similar situation.

trying to do a skate save on this shot, from ten feet out with a good amount of velocity aint gonna happen.

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04-03-2007, 09:10 PM
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any save from ten feet out is going to be difficult, butterfly or not. unless of course it hits you in the chest.

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04-03-2007, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
any save from ten feet out is going to be difficult, butterfly or not. unless of course it hits you in the chest.
thanks for your insight

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04-03-2007, 11:21 PM
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Well, I'm only 17, so I've still got a few more years to work on this than you do

But when I first broke into hockey, all my coaches always told me "Stay on your feet!" They were usually in their 40's. I continually found myself flopping down though. But when I eventually managed to stay on my feet I found that I was doing better. Not necessarily because I made more svaes, but because I wasn't as tired.

Now that I've finally made the move to ice with my high school, My style is beginning to change. The school's coach is only 25, so he wasn't exactly yelling at me to stay on my feet. This allowed me to develop into a Butterfly goalie, though I'm currently trying to stop moving in that direction and move towards the Brodeur hybrid style.

As I mentioned before, I noticed my stamina improved as a stand up. That's actually more of a relative thing... I only felt like I had more energy cause I wasn't wasting it on getting up and down. i shouldn't say wasting it... I much prefer flopping down. Anyway, I'm working on a lot of cardio, more so than I used to, as well as more leg work. These are givens for goalies, but I mean I'm doing a lot more work in those areas than I used to. That will develop the necessary stamina and leg strength for a butterfly goalie.

I also find myself, usually during Devils' games, shoving the coffee table out of the way and just dropping to a half butterfly and getting up over and over again. I figure this will not only help with strength, but also develop the proper mechanics. As mentioned by TBL, watch Brodeur. I usually practice the half butterfly during Devils games because I'm watching Brodeur and trying to mimic his movements.

Of course, the best way to make a big change like this is practice. Go to open sessions or whatever you have around you and just try and be concious of what your body is doing so you can make sure you're dropping your old habits.

Hope that helps a bit... Sorry it ended up running so long hehe...

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04-03-2007, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal2405 View Post
Well, I'm only 17, so I've still got a few more years to work on this than you do

But when I first broke into hockey, all my coaches always told me "Stay on your feet!" They were usually in their 40's. I continually found myself flopping down though. But when I eventually managed to stay on my feet I found that I was doing better. Not necessarily because I made more svaes, but because I wasn't as tired.

Now that I've finally made the move to ice with my high school, My style is beginning to change. The school's coach is only 25, so he wasn't exactly yelling at me to stay on my feet. This allowed me to develop into a Butterfly goalie, though I'm currently trying to stop moving in that direction and move towards the Brodeur hybrid style.

As I mentioned before, I noticed my stamina improved as a stand up. That's actually more of a relative thing... I only felt like I had more energy cause I wasn't wasting it on getting up and down. i shouldn't say wasting it... I much prefer flopping down. Anyway, I'm working on a lot of cardio, more so than I used to, as well as more leg work. These are givens for goalies, but I mean I'm doing a lot more work in those areas than I used to. That will develop the necessary stamina and leg strength for a butterfly goalie.

I also find myself, usually during Devils' games, shoving the coffee table out of the way and just dropping to a half butterfly and getting up over and over again. I figure this will not only help with strength, but also develop the proper mechanics. As mentioned by TBL, watch Brodeur. I usually practice the half butterfly during Devils games because I'm watching Brodeur and trying to mimic his movements.

Of course, the best way to make a big change like this is practice. Go to open sessions or whatever you have around you and just try and be concious of what your body is doing so you can make sure you're dropping your old habits.

Hope that helps a bit... Sorry it ended up running so long hehe...
Good stuff man, thanks for that!
Your story of pushing the coffee table away reminded me of something I used to do as a younger goalie watching HNIC, I would take one of those little super balls( the little bouncy ones) and I would get on my knees in a butterfly about 7ft in front of our fireplace and whip that ball against the hearth. The uneveness of the brick would cause that ball to shoot back at different angles everytime. I would lunge up and out and try to catch that little ball with my glove hand.
That was great for reflexes, lots of fun and as a result I had a pretty qwik glove hand. Just make sure the fire isnt lit
I played lots of ping pong too,even by myself.

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04-04-2007, 11:49 AM
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haha I've played ping pong by myself too, don't have a brick face anywhere unfortunately, so if I throw a ball it just comes straight back

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04-04-2007, 03:16 PM
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I'd also like to add that in my opinion, the half butterfly is easier on the knees and hips and is practically just as efficient as a full butterfly. The only benefit to a full butterfly is covering more net down low IF you're flexible enough to get some decent width.

*the following is assuming that you're not extremely flexible and don't have a a butterfly as wide as a Cam Ward*
What the half butterfly lets you do is drop and kick to the side the shot is coming allowing you to cover more of one side of the net that you wouldn't be able to reach in a full butterfly. There's only a couple downsides to it:
1) If you can't see the shot, this is where you use the full butterfly as a save tactic instead of a style.
2) Pushing off towards the extended leg takes a bit more time, although minimal.

I don't want to automatically believe that a half butterfly is a better style to play or that it's as good as a full butterfly. It all depends on your game, but in my opinion I think it will be easier for you to adjust into a half butterfly hybrid style instead of making the plunge into a full out butterfly. Also remember that you can make plenty of saves on your feet, no need to feel "old school" by staying on your feet.

I'd like to add one final point; for many a butterfly/half butterfly is just a type of save, not a style. You can be a standup goalie that uses a butterfly as a save in certain situations.

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Old
04-04-2007, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
I'd also like to add that in my opinion, the half butterfly is easier on the knees and hips and is practically just as efficient as a full butterfly. The only benefit to a full butterfly is covering more net down low IF you're flexible enough to get some decent width.

*the following is assuming that you're not extremely flexible and don't have a a butterfly as wide as a Cam Ward*
What the half butterfly lets you do is drop and kick to the side the shot is coming allowing you to cover more of one side of the net that you wouldn't be able to reach in a full butterfly. There's only a couple downsides to it:
1) If you can't see the shot, this is where you use the full butterfly as a save tactic instead of a style.
2) Pushing off towards the extended leg takes a bit more time, although minimal.

I don't want to automatically believe that a half butterfly is a better style to play or that it's as good as a full butterfly. It all depends on your game, but in my opinion I think it will be easier for you to adjust into a half butterfly hybrid style instead of making the plunge into a full out butterfly. Also remember that you can make plenty of saves on your feet, no need to feel "old school" by staying on your feet.

I'd like to add one final point; for many a butterfly/half butterfly is just a type of save, not a style. You can be a standup goalie that uses a butterfly as a save in certain situations.
Im not so sure I agree that is is much easier on the knees and hips. Knees- perhaps, but hips, I think there is a little more hips used in the half, considering the extra extension. At least for me, but Im not 22 like you...

On screens, I dont have a problem,sometimes they go in as I said my up and down is pretty good, I can recover quite quickly, as well as cover quite a bit of the net (I'm 6'3") Besides, screen shots are usually out more than 10 ft ( usually)

Im aware of the labels of a style, or mis-label if you prefer. I kind of think that you should use the right save for the shot. When I say Old school, its not really the way I "feel" per se, rather speaks to what was taught at most of the goalie schools etc

Good thoughts TBL, thanks for sharing

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Old
04-04-2007, 09:22 PM
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I am one who has pretty much been in the same place. Playing now for a little over 43 years, its been a constant evolution. You may be fortunate if you like me. Blocker side is easier on this old body when I have to extend with a Bfly or half Bfly.

I have to agree that the Half Butterfly is a great option for the low blocker side wrister. remembering to center shift to the puck path, leading with the stick, backing up that with the half butterflied pad works very well. If you dont get enough lateral push to get the stick to the puck, you have the pad to make the save and thats normally going to rebound to a harmless corner.


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04-04-2007, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
I am one who has pretty much been in the same place. Playing now for a little over 43 years, its been a constant evolution. You may be fortunate if you like me. Blocker side is easier on this old body when I have to extend with a Bfly or half Bfly.

I have to agree that the Half Butterfly is a great option for the low blocker side wrister. remembering to center shift to the puck path, leading with the stick, backing up that with the half butterflied pad works very well. If you dont get enough lateral push to get the stick to the puck, you have the pad to make the save and thats normally going to rebound to a harmless corner.
I think so too ( just got back from a stick n pick session) worked on that save a lot. Definetely too fast for a skate save, half BF really is the only option. Like I said, it really is only a couple shooters that have the release that is quick enough to get me, and can barely even pick up the puck...maybe I should get my eyes checked

Thanks for the input all- feel free to add

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04-04-2007, 09:56 PM
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TBL made some good points there. Really, a goalie needs to be able to make saves in a full butterfly or from a standing position, and be able to decide which kind of save is best for the current situation. I personally consider myself a hybrid in that I make saves from the fulll butterfly, or from a standing position, though most of the time you'll find me in the half butterfly.

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04-04-2007, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal2405 View Post
TBL made some good points there. Really, a goalie needs to be able to make saves in a full butterfly or from a standing position, and be able to decide which kind of save is best for the current situation. I personally consider myself a hybrid in that I make saves from the fulll butterfly, or from a standing position, though most of the time you'll find me in the half butterfly.
I see some goalies that are in the half BF way too much. Usually the sign of inexperience(on ice) or crossover from roller. No offense intended, it's just usually the case

It actually goes back a little farther then that. Obvisouly you need to be in the right position first, which usually means you are standing. Kind of what I mean when I say right save for the shot. Which goes back to my first post, about this one shot that gets me. I am not talking about a shot that is slow enough to steer aside with the stik or skate, you probably wont get it with a half BF most of the time either. The more I thnk about it, it goes back to positioning. The starting point.
It most likely my angles are off and Im leaving too much open on that side
TBL, your right I was overthinking it...just need to go back to the beginning

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04-05-2007, 01:45 PM
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i completely agree with some guys using the half BF too often. Oddly enough, I am a crossover from roller, but I was stand up there, thought when I did drop down i went full BF. I don't think it's necessarily a drawback to use the half extensively. While some do it just because MArty does and they want to be like him, other goalies practice using it a lot and in different situations so they know it's limitations and learn how to cover up its weaknesses.

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04-05-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal2405 View Post
i completely agree with some guys using the half BF too often. Oddly enough, I am a crossover from roller, but I was stand up there, thought when I did drop down i went full BF. I don't think it's necessarily a drawback to use the half extensively. While some do it just because MArty does and they want to be like him, other goalies practice using it a lot and in different situations so they know it's limitations and learn how to cover up its weaknesses.
I think the drawback in doing one thing extensively is the shooters soon learn what too expect.

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04-05-2007, 03:59 PM
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Exactly. Which is another reason why I mentioned in a previous post that a goalie needs to be able to use the BF, half BF and make standing saves. Also, if you work on covering up a particular hole that the half BF might generally leave open, shooters might tend to shoot there, and be sorely surprised when you've got it worked out. So it's possible to use another goalie's extensive use of one move to your own advantage

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04-05-2007, 04:25 PM
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there is no doubt that the goalies skills should be well rounded. When you consider us "aged" goalies, the old body aint what it used to be. One of the key failures of the half butterfly is not getting the knee fully down. Many will perform full drops and bfly slides in one direction but half to the other. Its natural for a goalie to favor a "control" side. My youngest has great lateral right side movement from down in a full Bfly but has major issue with the left. The brain isnt grasping the weight shift needing to be opposite. Over all, a balance issue so, he uses the half more until he can get it more game usable.

On the plus side, it puts much less total stress on the body. Being able to over square the hips into the half fly (as pictured above) is a HUGE stress reduction by comparison. The move makes recovery MUCH faster and if remembering to use the back side leg concept, makes the goalie more mobile. The technique plays very well into the skill set of a hybrid goalie.

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04-06-2007, 09:37 PM
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I'm guilty of doing the half BF too much. I've just moved up a level and I guess I am adjusting to the faster shots by dropping down quicker. None too successfully by the way.

I also have troubles with that low blocker shot. It's too high for the leg pads and seems to slip by a lot.

Goalie's fun though, I'm still at a point where after every goal I know what I should do different but then I forget until after the next similiar goal.

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04-06-2007, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
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I'm guilty of doing the half BF too much. I've just moved up a level and I guess I am adjusting to the faster shots by dropping down quicker. None too successfully by the way.

I also have troubles with that low blocker shot. It's too high for the leg pads and seems to slip by a lot.

Goalie's fun though, I'm still at a point where after every goal I know what I should do different but then I forget until after the next similiar goal.

Yeeeah. It happens. XD

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