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The Sport of Ice Hockey

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07-04-2014, 04:23 PM
  #201
Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1875 newspaper reports clearly mention spectators and entertainment. Thes two aspects are not in any doubt. Donald Guay does not exclude them so they are under consideration.
I never said their presence was in doubt, I said that Guay does not once mention them in his discussion of sport, which was supposedly arrived at empirically, and which you bristled at my questioning because it was arrived at by some consensus. I think the entertainment of spectators may be a valid part of the distinction, but I was pointing out that Guay did not think so.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Stake(s) also includes spectators and the competition for their attention - entertainment dollars, Guay's point three on page 18, either under the money or etc heading.
Guay clearly intends to include amateur hockey in his definition of sport, so there was no monetary reward involved. I think Guay would also bristle at your suggestion that the noble amateur athletes would be playing to get attention; that's would not be sporting in his book I don't think, and thus by his definition would not be sport. To be sporting the players must be trying to win honourably against an opponent of equal quality; not seeking fame from the masses. But to be fair, he does contradict himself a bit when he includes glory as a possible stake, so again it's hard to know what he means.

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How is Professional Poker not a sport? Even omitting my addition of intellectual considerations upthread you still have the physical aspects required to sustain the endurance of long competition while maintaining mental focus.
Sorry, your phrasing is unclear here, so I will ask you to clarify: are you saying that professional poker is a sport by Guay's standards?

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07-04-2014, 04:30 PM
  #202
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A defining characteristic is not required. The definition has to be open and fluid to allow for changes in society. MMA was not a consideration when Guay penned his book yet the definition of sport is open and fluid to include MMA. This validates the definition Guay makes.
Guay's definition is open and fluid enough to include things that he calls games rather than sports, such as the traditional games of hurling, bandy, etc. As such, it is not useful. The fact that a new sport that comes along meets the definition means nothing and does not validate it, because new "games" can come along and also meet it.

Are you suggesting that if the definition was more precise, MMA would have been excluded? Let's say we added my suggestion of refining what a stake is, and your suggestion of including the entertainment spectators. MMA would meet both of these, and would still be a sport.

What definition of sport do you think would include early professional hockey, but exclude MMA?

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Bolded. Guay is proposing a series of tests that determine a sport. Sophisticated litmus test might be an appropriate description.
You're still missing the point. If each of the six characteristics can apply to both a game and a sport, then they cannot be tests to determine which is it. You can go through each one and tick off the "yes" box, and it might still be a game by his intent. There's nothing preventing a bunch of pond hockeyists from writing down a few rules and then playing in a sportsmanlike manner. They'd meet all the checkmarks; is it then a sport?

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07-04-2014, 05:08 PM
  #203
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Criteria

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I never said their presence was in doubt, I said that Guay does not once mention them in his discussion of sport, which was supposedly arrived at empirically, and which you bristled at my questioning because it was arrived at by some consensus. I think the entertainment of spectators may be a valid part of the distinction, but I was pointing out that Guay did not think so.


Guay clearly intends to include amateur hockey in his definition of sport, so there was no monetary reward involved. I think Guay would also bristle at your suggestion that the noble amateur athletes would be playing to get attention; that's would not be sporting in his book I don't think, and thus by his definition would not be sport. To be sporting the players must be trying to win honourably against an opponent of equal quality; not seeking fame from the masses. But to be fair, he does contradict himself a bit when he includes glory as a possible stake, so again it's hard to know what he means.


Sorry, your phrasing is unclear here, so I will ask you to clarify: are you saying that professional poker is a sport by Guay's standards?
Guay does not exclude them either while throughout the work he does exclude other considérations such as pre March 3, 1875 ice hockey events.

Unless someone is playing solo in a complete vacuum, attention cannot be avoided as long as other people are present. So while playing honourably the athlete is getting attention from those that witness the honourable play. Doubt that Donald Guay would have any issues with this form of activity.

Yes Professional Poker would be a sport since it meets Guay's criteria. Likewise Chess with human competitiors be it Spassky v Fisher or other chess competition where not only mental but physical endurance is tested.

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07-04-2014, 05:16 PM
  #204
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What Happened

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Guay's definition is open and fluid enough to include things that he calls games rather than sports, such as the traditional games of hurling, bandy, etc. As such, it is not useful. The fact that a new sport that comes along meets the definition means nothing and does not validate it, because new "games" can come along and also meet it.

Are you suggesting that if the definition was more precise, MMA would have been excluded? Let's say we added my suggestion of refining what a stake is, and your suggestion of including the entertainment spectators. MMA would meet both of these, and would still be a sport.

What definition of sport do you think would include early professional hockey, but exclude MMA?


You're still missing the point. If each of the six characteristics can apply to both a game and a sport, then they cannot be tests to determine which is it. You can go through each one and tick off the "yes" box, and it might still be a game by his intent. There's nothing preventing a bunch of pond hockeyists from writing down a few rules and then playing in a sportsmanlike manner. They'd meet all the checkmarks; is it then a sport?
Isn't March 3, 1875 what your bolded describes. Only difference is that the solicitation and concern for spectators plus providing "Entertainment" value elevated an activity previously viewed as a game to a higher level, that of a sport.

Doing so does not preclude the activity from retaining game characteristics. In fact as a sport it may encourage great numbers of people to participate at the game level as an entry to the higher sport level.

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07-04-2014, 05:37 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Unless someone is playing solo in a complete vacuum, attention cannot be avoided as long as other people are present. So while playing honourably the athlete is getting attention from those that witness the honourable play. Doubt that Donald Guay would have any issues with this form of activity.
Ah, so once again we see that the attention cannot be a distinguishing factor. An athlete playing a game will also get positive attention for playing the game well. So once again, we're no clearer on what a sport is.

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Yes Professional Poker would be a sport since it meets Guay's criteria. Likewise Chess with human competitiors be it Spassky v Fisher or other chess competition where not only mental but physical endurance is tested.
Personally I doubt that this is what Guay meant by physical activity, because any board game requiring any sort of concentration would be made a sport. Play a marathon session of Monopoly or Risk? Those games can take a long time, testing your endurance, and require focus (especially Risk). So are these sports as well, so long as the participants value winning and don't cheat?

I find Guay's definition to be far too broad already, because many games fall under its umbrella, and you're broadening it even more now to include competitive card games. You're making the issue worse. If Guay's criteria are intended of a sport were intended to include something like professional poker as a sport, then that's even more reason to reject them.

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Isn't March 3, 1875 what your bolded describes.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree. Indeed, I'm not convinced that this first match, which Guay puts forward as the first example of the sport of ice hockey according to his criteria, actually fulfills all of his criteria.

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07-04-2014, 05:54 PM
  #206
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The main point is, Guay claimed the criteria are empirically-derived, and you told me they were objective. But it seems they're far from objective. Even if something meets all of them, you still need to use judgment to decide whether it's a sport.

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07-05-2014, 01:17 AM
  #207
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As for sitting for a long period and remaining focused being a physical activity, I doubt that's what Guay had in mind when he wrote:

«Quel que soit le sport, on observe toujours des gestes, des mouvements volontaires du corps, ou de certaines de ses parties, dans le temps at dans l'espace.» (Guay, p. 18)

That is:

"Whatever the sport, there are always actions, voluntary movements of the body, or parts of the body, in time and in space."

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07-05-2014, 10:06 AM
  #208
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Training

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
As for sitting for a long period and remaining focused being a physical activity, I doubt that's what Guay had in mind when he wrote:

«Quel que soit le sport, on observe toujours des gestes, des mouvements volontaires du corps, ou de certaines de ses parties, dans le temps at dans l'espace.» (Guay, p. 18)

That is:

"Whatever the sport, there are always actions, voluntary movements of the body, or parts of the body, in time and in space."
Suggest looking at the training regime of some of the grandmasters. In any sport the physicality exerted during the event tends to be far less than in the training leading to the event.

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07-05-2014, 10:10 AM
  #209
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Sport / Game

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The main point is, Guay claimed the criteria are empirically-derived, and you told me they were objective. But it seems they're far from objective. Even if something meets all of them, you still need to use judgment to decide whether it's a sport.
Consider viewing the sport / game distinction proposed by Donald Guay as similar to the consensus or objective distinction of the traditional definition of numerals(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) / numbers in mathematics. Acknowledgement and the appreciation of each does not detract or conflict, rather the distinction enhances each.

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07-06-2014, 02:07 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Suggest looking at the training regime of some of the grandmasters. In any sport the physicality exerted during the event tends to be far less than in the training leading to the event.
(I) Suggest reading's Guay's discussion in the book. It seems to me there's a pretty clear differentiation in the execution of the action being meaningful. In chess or poker, technically there are movements involved, but the manner in which you execute them has no bearing on the result. In those activities, the decision of what to do makes the difference; actually physically doing it is trivial. In a sport like hockey, both the decision and the execution are extremely important. You can't simply declare where you want the puck to do; you have to get it there.

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Consider viewing the sport / game distinction proposed by Donald Guay as similar to the consensus or objective distinction of the traditional definition of numerals(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) / numbers in mathematics. Acknowledgement and the appreciation of each does not detract or conflict, rather the distinction enhances each.
Sorry, 0 and 1 are objectively defined, while Guay's criteria are largely subjective, and do not serve in their proposed form to actually make a distinction. Activities can meet all of Guay's criteria and still be considered games by common standards, and activities can fail to meet one or more of the criteria and still be sports. This is why I say that Guay may be defining "something", but it's not sports vs. games.

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07-06-2014, 03:49 PM
  #211
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Objectives

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
(I) Suggest reading's Guay's discussion in the book. It seems to me there's a pretty clear differentiation in the execution of the action being meaningful. In chess or poker, technically there are movements involved, but the manner in which you execute them has no bearing on the result. In those activities, the decision of what to do makes the difference; actually physically doing it is trivial. In a sport like hockey, both the decision and the execution are extremely important. You can't simply declare where you want the puck to do; you have to get it there.


Sorry, 0 and 1 are objectively defined, while Guay's criteria are largely subjective, and do not serve in their proposed form to actually make a distinction. Activities can meet all of Guay's criteria and still be considered games by common standards, and activities can fail to meet one or more of the criteria and still be sports. This is why I say that Guay may be defining "something", but it's not sports vs. games.
Inadvertently tipping/dropping the king due to physical fatigue could start an interesting dispute, likewise mishandling cards.

Numerals generate multi-digit numbers even though [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] are also single digit numbers.0 was a rather late addition - 5th /6th century AD to numerals.

Guay is defining the continium between games and sports not holding them in comparison or in opposition. First sentence in the seminal post of this thread was clear in this regard:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...67&postcount=1

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07-07-2014, 12:15 PM
  #212
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Inadvertently tipping/dropping the king due to physical fatigue could start an interesting dispute, likewise mishandling cards.
You're really stretching here, even by your standards. The suggestion that the physical component of chess is anywhere close to being as important as the physical aspect of hockey is, to be blunt, laughable. It's not even in the same universe.

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Guay is defining the continium between games and sports not holding them in comparison or in opposition. First sentence in the seminal post of this thread was clear in this regard:
Incorrect. Guay is trying to define how hockey is different than earlier traditional British games, which he does not wish to call sports. Part of me suspects he does this in order to be able to declare Montreal to be the "birthplace" of hockey. You do not use a term like birthplace is you are not trying to make a strong distinction.

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07-08-2014, 10:14 AM
  #213
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Early Works

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You're really stretching here, even by your standards. The suggestion that the physical component of chess is anywhere close to being as important as the physical aspect of hockey is, to be blunt, laughable. It's not even in the same universe.


Incorrect. Guay is trying to define how hockey is different than earlier traditional British games, which he does not wish to call sports. Part of me suspects he does this in order to be able to declare Montreal to be the "birthplace" of hockey. You do not use a term like birthplace is you are not trying to make a strong distinction.
Suggest reading Guay earlier works from the 1964 - 1974 period which examine physical education in Québec elementary and secondary schools as well as physical activity in the population. List is found six pages into the book, opposite thethe dedication to Gaston Marcotte.

Also suggest reading accounts from various Anglican and Catholic sources in Canada and Britain that touch upon the relationship between the academic(intellectual) and the physical(recreational).

Guay's book presently under discussion is the continuation of this inquiry into physical activity and how it became startified with sport at the top of the pyramid, yet requiring the support of contributing games and related physical activities.

Guay does not have any interest in declaring Montréal the birthplace of hockey, rather, he is examining the various claims to this effect - Sutherland and others in the light of Montréal.

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07-18-2014, 12:10 AM
  #214
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Guay does not have any interest in declaring Montréal the birthplace of hockey.
Strange that he does exactly that, then.

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07-18-2014, 12:12 AM
  #215
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Here is the second part of my review of Guay's book, in which I cover the bit where declares Montréal to be the birthplace of hockey, as noted above.

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07-26-2014, 10:34 AM
  #216
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Montagnard Rink Details

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Some of the indoor ice rinks in the province of Québec built in the second have of the 19th century, ibid Donald Guay, p 35,64, 244.

Very few images around of the Montagnard Rink which was at the corner of Duluth and St. Hubert in Montreal.
Details about the Montagnard Rink opened in 1898 follow:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...1444%2C4306762



Everything from dimensions to accomodations, directors, fees, etc. On Duluth, South side, stretching east from St. Hubert.

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