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[MTL/BUF] Gorges traded to Sabres for MIN's 2nd round pick 2016

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07-05-2014, 11:27 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I agree with all except for the fact that someone needs to push DD out of that #1 role. In theory you would be correct. But the coach also has to give the other players the opportunity to beat DD out of that spot. MT has force fed DD to that #1 spot even if other players outperformed him. That's the problem. MT is very stubborn. If he doesn't like you or thinks of you a certain way...he's not changing. Hoping one of our C's does so well that even MT would be forced to play them. Which means they'd have to be twice as good as DD.
It always come back to your hate of DD and Therrien with you, doesn't it.

You must not be listening to Bergevin - players make the decisions This is not only Therrien, but all the hockey ops. If Galchenyuk was deemed to be ready - he would play there.

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07-05-2014, 11:35 AM
  #402
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I am in no way saying we should have traded for a player giving up assets again. We did it last year, and if I have to chose between Parenteau or Vanek, I take Vanek 100% of the time. Vrbata signed a 2year 5M deal, so I'm assuming we were not offering him that much more to entice him. He is a winger that is used to facing top opponents, played on a defensive team for a while and produced, he would have been perfect for Plekanec. When do we ever think about getting Plekanec a winger?? To me this was a priority and we didn't live up to it.
I'd also add that the Bobby Ryan trade for Ottawa was a good one. It had nothing to do with their struggles.

As for leaving spots for youngsters, that's my point. Youngsters come with uncertainty.

Regarding DD, I have no knock on him, but I'm sick of hearing that there is no better option or that nobody shown it. That's just not true. Eller outproduced him last year, he was doing it again early this season with 12 more pts than him through 20 games I believe, and then his winger was removed for the benefit of DD.
Plekanec while in a shutdown role, with pretty average wingers, will put up 50ish pts, similar to DD who's used as a #1 offensive center. Whenever Plekanec shared defensive responsibilities with other centers (Koivu-Gomez) he put up 60pts+.
So ya, I'm pretty keen to think we have options that just weren't explored.
Most importantly though, we need our #1 offensive line to produce when put in any situation. We all saw how that went down when POs came along and teams focused their game plan on shutting down that line. Disappointing production. So it's in our best interest to try other options.
DD was behind Plekanec and Eller in production last year, to start the season he had 1pt in 20 gp. So how is it he was still giving more favorable minutes to Eller and Plek? We're not talking about a center who merits having your whole offense rebuilt around here. He is not a ppg center. He is not even a #1 centerman by normal standards. We're talking about a center that may up 60pts tops by getting the most favorable minutes with the top wingers.

Galchenyuk, well I disagree that he was underwhelming. He produced well next to Eller, and his production dipped a bit after moving up to Plekanec which is pretty normal considering the more difficult situations. That being said, Galchenyuk will not show you how good of a center he is by playing the wing, and if he puts up 80pts as a winger, why would you then move him at center?
He has averaged a .5 scoring pace through his career, I'd say that's pretty darn good given the fact he did so on a 3rd line or next to a center used as a shutdown one. The time to have him center a line is now. We drafted him to be a big center for us, so let's use him as such.
Pacioretty's words mean very little. He said them when he didn't even have 50 games of NHL experience. Care to tell me how many centers Max played more than 10-15 consecutive games with? His break out in the NHL started next to Gomez.
Max will produce any other center. People have to let this go. DD is just a center he's used to playing with, that's all.
There's a whole lot of if, maybes, and half truths in your post.

Just the fact that DD DOUBLED Eller's production after he gave him a 20 game head start - while playing against tougher opposition - yet you focus that DD is Therrien's pet and he hates Eller...blah..blah.blah....

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07-06-2014, 07:58 AM
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
There's a whole lot of if, maybes, and half truths in your post.

Just the fact that DD DOUBLED Eller's production after he gave him a 20 game head start - while playing against tougher opposition - yet you focus that DD is Therrien's pet and he hates Eller...blah..blah.blah....
Here's the only production that matters:

27 Games Played: 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 Pts..

25 Games Played: 5 goals, 10 assists, 15 Pts..

I'll let you guess who has the more play-off points and I don't think we really need to go into Eller vs. Desharnais, quality of line-mates, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, quality of opposition and powerplay time.

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07-06-2014, 09:58 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Here's the only production that matters:

27 Games Played: 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 Pts..

25 Games Played: 5 goals, 10 assists, 15 Pts..

I'll let you guess who has the more play-off points and I don't think we really need to go into Eller vs. Desharnais, quality of line-mates, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, quality of opposition and powerplay time.
I don't agree that playoffs is the only production that matters as you have to get there in the first place, but it certainly is more relevant.

I hear ya on Eller being underutilized in comparison to Desharnais. I hope that Eller continues to play like he did in the playoffs and produce..if he does that I foresee his ice time to increase even if one gets the feeling that it may not thanks to Therrien.


Last edited by Grant McCagg: 07-06-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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07-06-2014, 10:09 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
It always come back to your hate of DD and Therrien with you, doesn't it.

You must not be listening to Bergevin - players make the decisions This is not only Therrien, but all the hockey ops. If Galchenyuk was deemed to be ready - he would play there.
And Galchenyuk will get every opportunity to prove he's a better option than DD. Just like Lars and every other centerman on this team.

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07-06-2014, 10:25 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I don't agree that playoffs is the only production that matters as you have to get there in the first place, but it certainly is more relevant.

I hear ya on Eller being underutilized in comparison to Desharnais. I hope that Eller continues to play like he did in the playoffs and produce..if he does that I foresee his ice time to increase even if one gets the feeling that it may not thanks to Therrien.
That is the hope. However, it's not like MT has given anyone any confidence that he would do so:

In 2012-2013, Eller finished the season as the best centre of the team while DD had a bad season. At the start of 2013-2014 Eller picked up where he left off while DD continued in a downward spiral. Eller's line cooled down point wise, but they were still creating chances. Despite all that, and despite DD's massive struggle, MT not only didn't give Eller an increased role, but he reduced the role he held at the time, all the while DD saw his role increase without having earned it....especially considering that he struggled the entire 2012-2013 season and for the 20 games of 2013-2014 season.

In short, I haven't seen MT give me any reason to believe that Eller will see an increased role in the near future no matter how well he plays. He didn't hesitate to cut his role at the slightest sign of struggle, meanwhile other players get the longest rope possible.

It's pretty clear MT has his favorites. Briere recently stated so. I don't see this changing next season. MT obviously believes in DD, to the point where he'd rather see the ship continue to sink than change the line. This was pretty evident in the playoffs with DD's wave struggling on the PP yet continuing to get the bulk of the PP time.

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07-06-2014, 11:35 AM
  #407
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I don't understand why people don't think Desharnais can be our first line centre? We don't have that sterotypical guy who is NHL ready so we have to make due. At the end of the day, Desharnais was 32nd in scoring among centres, won over half his faceoffs and had a pretty good shooting %.

Is there aspects to the game that I think DD lacks? Sure. But at 3.5M, and still getting over 50 points despite a horrid start, I'm okay with using Desharnais as we do and sheltering him when needed. That's what's great about having Pleks and Eller, 2 full lines that can take nasty defensive zone draws.

Nobody on this team has remotely shown that they can take the 1st line Centre duties. Nobody. We don't need to experiment with the 1st line because we've seen it work. This team has way too much talent to start experimenting with Eller or Galchenyuk on the top line.

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07-06-2014, 12:20 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
There's a whole lot of if, maybes, and half truths in your post.

Just the fact that DD DOUBLED Eller's production after he gave him a 20 game head start - while playing against tougher opposition - yet you focus that DD is Therrien's pet and he hates Eller...blah..blah.blah....
I'm not sure about that, what's is your proof saying this ? especially since Eller payed in a shutdown role.

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07-06-2014, 09:13 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I'm not sure about that, what's is your proof saying this ? especially since Eller payed in a shutdown role.
This is not really true, not the whole year.

One of the problems with Eller is that he is has not found his "niche".

Is he a 1st line center? Is he a second line center with a solid two-way game? is he a third line shutdown center?...is he a 4th line banger? I think he is somewhere between 2 and 3...but I think this year is critical to define his role, once and for all (with us).

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07-06-2014, 09:28 PM
  #410
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A Gorges thread turned into a DD thread.

You guys are awesome.

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07-06-2014, 09:32 PM
  #411
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haters are so obsessed with davey. It's REALLY creepy.

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07-06-2014, 09:41 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
I don't understand why people don't think Desharnais can be our first line centre? We don't have that sterotypical guy who is NHL ready so we have to make due. At the end of the day, Desharnais was 32nd in scoring among centres, won over half his faceoffs and had a pretty good shooting %.
He's averaged 55 pts a season over the last 3 seasons. Not exactly sparkling numbers for a guy whose used in such an offensive role alongside one of the leagues top goal scorers over that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
Is there aspects to the game that I think DD lacks? Sure. But at 3.5M, and still getting over 50 points despite a horrid start, I'm okay with using Desharnais as we do and sheltering him when needed. That's what's great about having Pleks and Eller, 2 full lines that can take nasty defensive zone draws.

Nobody on this team has remotely shown that they can take the 1st line Centre duties. Nobody. We don't need to experiment with the 1st line because we've seen it work. This team has way too much talent to start experimenting with Eller or Galchenyuk on the top line.
So Plekanec having seasons of 69 and 70pts, leading his team in points twice is not remotely close to being a 1st line center yet somehow Desharnais is indisputably working as a 1st line center even though he can't outproduce a 3rd line center when it matters.

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07-06-2014, 10:18 PM
  #413
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I liked Josh. I am not happy he is traded. I hope that 2nd round pick turns out to be great, but we won't know for years!

I also love the fact that he refused to be traded to the Leafs, but jhe was okay with going with last place Buffalo!!! He was a true Montreal Canadiens player. You will be missed by me Josh.

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07-06-2014, 10:25 PM
  #414
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I liked Josh. I am not happy he is traded. I hope that 2nd round pick turns out to be great, but we won't know for years!

I also love the fact that he refused to be traded to the Leafs, but jhe was okay with going with last place Buffalo!!! He was a true Montreal Canadiens player. You will be missed by me Josh.
I really think Josh's problem was that he is an anachronism. A little too specialized in his skill set. Definitely want him on the ice for purely shut down situations.

Unfortunately, he is a liability moving the puck and contributing any offense at all.

His game belongs to another generation. He's useful, and the epitome of a team guy, but overpaid for what he brings.

I always admired his competitiveness and his heart. Just too narrow in his strengths.

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