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It's officially a debate: Ken Holland vs. Garth Snow

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:52 PM
  #126
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And by the way if you mean by his recent track record of three scf appearances in a row? Keeping a team a play off team together when arguably a top 5 dman of all time retires???? Like seriously im not even a wings fan but give the guy some credit. This what have you done lately attitude of hf boards is idiotic, I'd take Holland over the idiot in Chicago who just signed two glorified 2nd liners any day of the week.

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07-11-2014, 03:57 PM
  #127
tony d
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Ken Holland still wins this. Garth Snow, as a GM, is still pretty terrible.

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07-11-2014, 03:58 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Murray View Post
Snow is the worst GM in this league by a good green country mile.
Snow did good until the Vanek deal.

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07-11-2014, 04:16 PM
  #129
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Garth Snow

I can't wait till Snow proves all the haters wrong this year...

If you compare the teams roster this year to the 2010-11 season you will be in shock.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/hoc...inalize-roster

Please, Snow has done as much as he could under Charles Wang. He came to a barren team when he first arrived and had to deal with players who wanted nothing to do with the Islanders. Its a hard job to rebuild this team, especially when no FA wants to come to LI when you offer them all more than all the other teams, and they still have no interest in coming.

Garth Snow is gonna shut a lot of people up this year. I truly believe this is the year the Islander's rebuild ends and the fruits of his labor start to show. His excellent drafting is finally going to have a current presence on the team.

Since they made the playoffs 2 years ago, they have improved their offense, defense, AND goaltending by miles.

I hope this thread gets bumped at the end of next season next year. Please, someone set a reminder.

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07-11-2014, 04:19 PM
  #130
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Is this thread really a thing? I'm not a Snow basher like a lot of Isles fans but Holland is a superior GM by a good amount.

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07-11-2014, 04:25 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Doty View Post
So are we just supposed to toss aside decades of sample size?
OK ya, not just me here I guess, what the heck is OP talking about? Holland has a great track record, Snow is a joke.

What am I missing here?

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07-11-2014, 04:31 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
OK ya, not just me here I guess, what the heck is OP talking about? Holland has a great track record, Snow is a joke.

What am I missing here?
It's ADHD. Haven't you noticed?

Each year, we have a thread about X being the best in recent memory. And recent memory rarely goes as far as one week ago.

So if Garth Snow makes an OK move one day and Ken Holland doesn't do anything that day, Garth Snow becomes a better GM than Holland.

Welcome to the internet.

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07-11-2014, 04:40 PM
  #133
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Holland is no Jimmy Devellano. Oh, maybe that's the problem.

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07-11-2014, 04:51 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
It's ADHD. Haven't you noticed?

Each year, we have a thread about X being the best in recent memory. And recent memory rarely goes as far as one week ago.

So if Garth Snow makes an OK move one day and Ken Holland doesn't do anything that day, Garth Snow becomes a better GM than Holland.

Welcome to the internet.
And how do we know it was "an OK move" yet? Did he win the draft? win free agency? do results matter AT ALL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joemon999 View Post
I can't wait till Snow proves all the haters wrong this year...

If you compare the teams roster this year to the 2010-11 season you will be in shock.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/hoc...inalize-roster

Please, Snow has done as much as he could under Charles Wang. He came to a barren team when he first arrived and had to deal with players who wanted nothing to do with the Islanders. Its a hard job to rebuild this team, especially when no FA wants to come to LI when you offer them all more than all the other teams, and they still have no interest in coming.

Garth Snow is gonna shut a lot of people up this year. I truly believe this is the year the Islander's rebuild ends and the fruits of his labor start to show. His excellent drafting is finally going to have a current presence on the team.

Since they made the playoffs 2 years ago, they have improved their offense, defense, AND goaltending by miles.

I hope this thread gets bumped at the end of next season next year. Please, someone set a reminder.
As a NYI fan, as much success as the NYI may have this year, putting Snow in a conversation with Holland is simply beyond embarrassing. Can we wait until he DOES SOMETHING (in terms of measurable results) before we proclaim anything?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Agreed. It's painful to read, really.

The frustration of Wings fans is understandable. They have experienced a level of competitiveness unequaled by all other teams over the last several decades. So, another mere playoff appearance and a quiet postseason brings a critical eye toward their GM. A bit harsh, but understandable, and they know their team better than anyone else.

However....

When you go from that to comparing him to a GM yet to notch a single meaningful accomplishment in eight years at the helm....oy. And worse, a couple of posters genuinely give the nod to Snow!

Why stop there? It's officially a debate: Pavel Datsyuk vs. Casey Czikas (4th line C on NYI).
why did you feel it necessary to explain who Casey Cizikas is? You clearly don't think "Zeeker" and Datsyuk are at the same level? HATER!

I'm embarrassed for Isles fans, this is a thread that should have been closed immediately, based solely on its absurdity. The fact that it's several pages in, and people are really attempting to discuss this is shameful for us all!

I'm thinking this is just because it's the summer, humidity is higher than it should be, True Detective & Mad Men are on hiatus, LeBron is going home - and there's just not enough content for HF. OR, this is one of those signs of the apocalypse.

(for the record, I think the Isles WILL make the playoffs next season. but so what.)

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Old
07-11-2014, 05:18 PM
  #135
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"Don't worry Ken, they **** on me too" -Garth Snow

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Old
07-11-2014, 05:23 PM
  #136
MatthewBarnabysTears
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemon999 View Post
I can't wait till Snow proves all the haters wrong this year...

If you compare the teams roster this year to the 2010-11 season you will be in shock.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/hoc...inalize-roster

Please, Snow has done as much as he could under Charles Wang. He came to a barren team when he first arrived and had to deal with players who wanted nothing to do with the Islanders. Its a hard job to rebuild this team, especially when no FA wants to come to LI when you offer them all more than all the other teams, and they still have no interest in coming.

Garth Snow is gonna shut a lot of people up this year. I truly believe this is the year the Islander's rebuild ends and the fruits of his labor start to show. His excellent drafting is finally going to have a current presence on the team.

Since they made the playoffs 2 years ago, they have improved their offense, defense, AND goaltending by miles.

I hope this thread gets bumped at the end of next season next year. Please, someone set a reminder.
But in 2010-2011 snow had been the gm for five years! he was 100% responsible for that roster!

(also the 2010-2011 roster would have been much better if Okposo and Streit were healthy Moulson-Tavares-Parenteau was an awesome first line, and wasn't that the year Grabner had 30+ goals and Comeau had 24 goals?)

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07-11-2014, 05:29 PM
  #137
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As a Wings fan, I can't stand Holland these days. And I've been a detractor of his for going on 4 years now, not just recently.

But to say he is in a class with Garth Snow is unspeakable. Holland is great at drafting and developing both players and staff, whereas he's average (or worse) at trading and abysmal when it comes to picking and choosing who to go after or which players are worth overpaying during free agency (unless said player approaches him first, a la Hossa). What positive attributes does Snow have? He's average at best in any respect, no matter how you slice it.

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Old
07-11-2014, 05:31 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
Holland is no Jimmy Devellano. Oh, maybe that's the problem.
Huh? Devellano is quite possibly as much to blame as Holland, unless Holland has gone rogue and refuses to pay heed to what any of the other Detroit brass are saying.

Now, if you're confusing Jimmy Devellano with Jim Nill, then that's another story.

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Old
07-11-2014, 06:01 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HC Davos View Post
Snow did good until the Vanek deal.
If by good you mean terrible I might agree. The Nino nonsense was an epic bungle, among other moves and lack of moves.

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07-11-2014, 06:38 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewBarnabysTears View Post
At least some of those guys (hextall at least) did gain front office experience in between playing and being a GM. And none of these former players was plucked from the active roster pre-retirement. I'll defend Snow from some of the criticism he gets from non-Isles fans that mostly belongs on Charles Wang, but the circumstances of Snow's hire was a ****-show that is still without precedent.
What's the difference if he waited 1hr after retirement or 5 years? Is there something magical that happens in that time?

Garth Snow has two degrees.... I'm going to bet that none of the aforementioned have even one.

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07-11-2014, 07:38 PM
  #141
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Literally the only people to whom this is a debate are unreasonably disenchanted Detroit fans.

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07-11-2014, 08:07 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Fair enough



Here's another example of the double standard the Islanders have to deal with.

Snow is somehow an idiot, apparently because he was a former player?

Yzerman? Sakic? Hextall? Loved
All three of those guys were groomed for their present positions, and I have actually been quite critical of how quickly Sakic moved up the latter. Niewendyk and Hull are generally my go-to guys for this but at least they had some experience. Snow literally woke up one day as the back up goaltender and went to bed as the GM. He had zero qualifications.

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Old
07-11-2014, 08:13 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
What's the difference if he waited 1hr after retirement or 5 years? Is there something magical that happens in that time?

Garth Snow has two degrees.... I'm going to bet that none of the aforementioned have even one.
Was this a serious statement? Working front office positions and learning craft while watching experienced professionals has a lot of merit. The Sakic situation is a little bit iffy, but Yzerman and Hextall spent years as the right hand man to very successful GMs in very successful organizations. Something does happen, it is called experience. Snow was just some scrub backup goaltender who became GM one day. Imagine how big of a joke it would be we found out tomorrow that Petr Budaj became the GM of the habs or if Tim Thomas became GM of the Stars.

Your belief must be that some people are just born with a "GM gene" and cannot improve their competency over time if you feel that working as what amounts to an apprentice is meaningless.

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07-12-2014, 01:36 AM
  #144
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HFBoards being HFBoards.

Garth Snow actually was respected here before the Vanek trade. The Islanders set off on a long term re-build. They have drafted very nicely, they have signed their own players to respectable contracts, and they found diamonds in the rough. They almost tripped up the Penguins a season ago. This all while operating on a bare-bones budget.

Snow made two errors last year:

A) Expecting that the entire team would continue on an upward trajectory while neglecting the fact that Visnovsky and Nabakov were declining from their peak.

B) The Vanek trade.

For a team that barely treads water above the salary cap. I'd say Garth Snow has done a decent job, a B- overall.

How many teams spend $10+ million more a season than the Islanders and are perennially mediocre or worse. They also have worse drafts than the Isles, and overpay for free agents. Lets go through the list: Washington, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Edmonton, Calgary, and San Jose.

Garth Snow and the Islanders are an easy target and TSN made that abundantly clear during the trade deadline. The Islanders are trying to do it the right way. I'm not a Snow apologist, but there are teams that spend a lot more and get mediocre results.

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07-12-2014, 02:39 AM
  #145
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Who's a better GM? Garth Snow or Ken Holland since 2009? That's the real question. And it is a close discussion, imo.

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07-12-2014, 02:59 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Literally the only people to whom this is a debate are unreasonably disenchanted Detroit fans.
What has Holland done since 2009? What are his achievements? What is his best move in that time? His highlight is either drafting Mantha or signing Alfredsson. And that's it.

Other than that, its been a succession of terribad free agent signings, keeping run down vets wayyyy past their sell-by date, suppressing the careers of our youngsters and generally sitting on his hands after a string of 1st and 2nd round exits. The window is closing on the Datsyuk and Zetterberg years, and the last 5 years have been squandered.

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07-12-2014, 03:20 AM
  #147
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Just to reiterate something for people bringing up the Vanek trade as a reason these two shouldn't be compared:

Holland made an equally rotten and bizarre deal a few years back, when he waived Kyle Quincey in 2008, then traded a first round pick to get Quincey back a few seasons later.

Even if you look past the embarrassment of having to trade an asset to get back a player you have seller's remorse about sending out for nothing: in what world (other than Holland's) was Quincey ever worth that price?

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07-12-2014, 03:25 AM
  #148
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Thanks to the OP. Haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

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07-12-2014, 04:20 AM
  #149
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If by good you mean terrible I might agree. The Nino nonsense was an epic bungle, among other moves and lack of moves.
From a Sabres fan

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07-12-2014, 04:34 AM
  #150
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From a Sabres fan
You don't see the Sabres trading away Hodgson for Brandon Prust.

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