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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

It's officially a debate: Ken Holland vs. Garth Snow

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07-12-2014, 04:37 AM
  #151
Fish on The Sand
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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi View Post
What has Holland done since 2009? What are his achievements? What is his best move in that time? His highlight is either drafting Mantha or signing Alfredsson. And that's it.

Other than that, its been a succession of terribad free agent signings, keeping run down vets wayyyy past their sell-by date, suppressing the careers of our youngsters and generally sitting on his hands after a string of 1st and 2nd round exits. The window is closing on the Datsyuk and Zetterberg years, and the last 5 years have been squandered.
Holland may not have been able to build upon his core that much since 2009, however do you know what he has done consistently? He's consistently been better than the Islander in every single season in every single way imaginable, despite not having the luxury of routinely drafting in the top 5.

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07-12-2014, 06:28 AM
  #152
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So from reading this thread I have learned: making the playoffs > then winning in the playoffs.

How can people be shocked Wings fans hate Holland? He has signed player after player to contracts that 90% of the fanbase hate. I I was always under the assumption teams were built in order to garner fan support. This man straight up showed his entire fanbase loyalty to a player is more important than to the fans. His entire job is to make the best roster available, for the last 3 years Cleary/Q has made it worse, and who does he bring back???
The fact Holland even had the balls to talk **** about listening to the fans after stumbling into the playoffs year after year after a retread from some scrub is laughable.
Also for those that say this signing means nothing, last year when this whole Cleary thing went down it cost us Nyquist (being sent to the minors) and Tatar becoming a healthy scratch. We missed the 7th seed by 2 to 4 points, I am 100% positive we would have at least won 1 to 2 more games with either of them in the line up over Cleary. This time he will be standing in the way of either Jurco/Pulkennen/Mantha. Hell he is standing in the way of anyone in our farm system, considering he is a border line AHLer, at best, and Babcock will continue to run this piece of **** on the ice with Datsyuk/Z.


Last edited by benusmc: 07-12-2014 at 06:36 AM.
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07-12-2014, 06:31 AM
  #153
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Lets look at some of Holland signing the last few years: Commodore, I. White, Colocavo, Tootoo, Sammy(x2), Quincey (x2), Cleary(x2), Bertuzzi (x2), all of these players have either been a healthy scratch or waived. Then we have the additions of: Alfie, Weiss. Oh and Jarnkrok for Legwand, so one of our best center prospects for a rental and 3/4th line player for us......

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but that was from the last 4 years. Pathetic.....


Last edited by benusmc: 07-12-2014 at 06:42 AM.
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07-12-2014, 11:06 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
He's consistently been better than the Islander in every single season in every single way imaginable, despite not having the luxury of routinely drafting in the top 5.
And Holland has done it while consistently having the lowest payroll in the NHL finding ways to cheap out on players contracts so while he was above the cap min his actual payroll was much worse.

Honestly though it's a stupid comparison

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07-12-2014, 01:48 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Exactly, and they aren't contending for a Cup for at least the next 3 or 4 seasons so why not bring back a favorite in the locker room to help get through the tough years ahead.
Its cause last time (last year) cleary was signed it ended with Nyquist in grand rapids and tatar riding the pine, is cleary better than either of them?

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07-12-2014, 03:46 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by benusmc View Post
I was always under the assumption teams were built in order to garner fan support.
I read your post with interest. The sentence above jumped out at me.

You really believe that?

I promise you that NHL GMs assemble teams with the explicit objective of winning. Not with the popular opinion of fans in mind.

Now, winning and garnering fan support are not mutually exclusive. But rest assured that no GM is going to make personnel decisions based on fan-tested polls or "crowdsourced" recommendations. Nor should he. "Good PR" may play a small part in a decision, but it is very low on the list.


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07-12-2014, 04:08 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benusmc View Post
So from reading this thread I have learned: making the playoffs > then winning in the playoffs.
In the context of this thread (ie. Holland versus Snow as GM) making the playoffs > not making the playoffs. That's my issue with this thread. Okay, Holland's not done so well lately. But he's still doing something consistently that Snow can't lay claim to (ie. making the playoffs). So already that removes any "debate".

I think Red Wings fans are confusing this thread topic with a different topic of whether or not Holland is doing a good job as a GM. It's the difference between asking "Is Joe Thornton a top five center in the NHL today?" and asking "Is Joe Thornton better than Paul Gaustad today?". This thread is akin to the latter, not the former, with regards to Holland.

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07-12-2014, 06:43 PM
  #158
benusmc
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I read your post with interest. The sentence above jumped out at me.

You really believe that?

I promise you that NHL GMs assemble teams with the explicit objective of winning. Not with the popular opinion of fans in mind.

Now, winning and garnering fan support are not mutually exclusive. But rest assured that no GM is going to make personnel decisions based on fan-tested polls or "crowdsourced" recommendations. Nor should he. "Good PR" may play a small part in a decision, but it is very low on the list.
Well at the end of the day I believe a team is built to provide the most success possible. When teams are successful generally the fans support them. While I don't believe you should poll a fanbase on who they should bring in, you certainly shouldn't alienate them like Holland has done. But I agree GM's shouldn't base opinions on fan polls etc, however a GM shouldn't also cave to his subordinates at the determent of the team.

I'm sure most of it is venting, but a lot of people online have been stating they will not be renewing season tickets this year because of the moves. At the end of the day the NHL is a business, if you do not provide what your customer base wants, you will lose your customers.

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07-12-2014, 06:47 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
In the context of this thread (ie. Holland versus Snow as GM) making the playoffs > not making the playoffs. That's my issue with this thread. Okay, Holland's not done so well lately. But he's still doing something consistently that Snow can't lay claim to (ie. making the playoffs). So already that removes any "debate".

I think Red Wings fans are confusing this thread topic with a different topic of whether or not Holland is doing a good job as a GM. It's the difference between asking "Is Joe Thornton a top five center in the NHL today?" and asking "Is Joe Thornton better than Paul Gaustad today?". This thread is akin to the latter, not the former, with regards to Holland.
I understand exactly your point, let me see if I can retort in similar terms. Holland= Modano, a skilled star in his time, While Snow= Kirk Maltby. Maltby was never the player Modano was, but by the end of their careers, they both were terrible and needed to retire. Basically one may have been greater than the other, but as the years of worn on they are both on an equal playing field now.

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07-12-2014, 07:06 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benusmc View Post
I understand exactly your point, let me see if I can retort in similar terms. Holland= Modano, a skilled star in his time, While Snow= Kirk Maltby. Maltby was never the player Modano was, but by the end of their careers, they both were terrible and needed to retire. Basically one may have been greater than the other, but as the years of worn on they are both on an equal playing field now.
That's still not an apt analogy/comparison, because in this instance Holland -- as much as he's regressed or whatever -- still ices a roster that makes the playoffs. Snow does not (as of this posting before anyone gets smarmy about it and bumps this next year if the Isles make the playoffs).

In your analogy, you've got two useless players. But a better analogy would be Craig Adams and Brad Richards. Richards isn't what he used to be, but he's still halfway decent.

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07-13-2014, 11:21 AM
  #161
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How is this even a discussion? Detroit not only has never missed the playoffs under Holland's reign, they've also won four Stanley Cups. On the other hand, Garth Snow is one of the absolute worst general managers of all-time. He's just not an NHL calibre GM, and the crazy Isles owner is the only one who can't see that.

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07-18-2014, 04:04 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
How is this even a discussion? Detroit not only has never missed the playoffs under Holland's reign, they've also won four Stanley Cups. On the other hand, Garth Snow is one of the absolute worst general managers of all-time. He's just not an NHL calibre GM, and the crazy Isles owner is the only one who can't see that.
A lot of crazy Islander fans think Snow is the best thing since sliced bread, and that he would be the best GM of all without Wang's interference. He is a better yes man than Holland, for whatever that is worth.

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07-18-2014, 04:49 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by 2LeftSkates View Post
A lot of crazy Islander fans think Snow is the best thing since sliced bread, and that he would be the best GM of all without Wang's interference. He is a better yes man than Holland, for whatever that is worth.
i have never seen that sentiment expressed by islanders fans. what i have seen is islanders fans trying to explain how charles wang's influence affects the front office (for example, we have bar far the shortest-staffed scouting department in the league) and the context for his moves.

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07-18-2014, 07:41 PM
  #164
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I know Wings fans are hurting lately, but so has the roster!

Come on. Datsyuk and Zetterberg missed 40 games each and they still made the playoffs.

The kids carried them.

Thats the difference between bad Holland and bad Snow. Holland makes bad moves but hes got buffers.

Snow makes bad moves and the Isles are a lottery team for the what, seventh time in nine years?

Detroit has excellent scouts.

The Isles dont need scouts.

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07-18-2014, 08:04 PM
  #165
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That's just it, though.

We made the playoffs because of Gustav Nyquist, who Ken Holland and Mike Babcock decided to start the year IN THE MINORS.

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07-18-2014, 08:25 PM
  #166
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Is Nyquist the savior of Motown?

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