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Kane and Toews Extended (8 Years, $10.5M AAV)

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07-10-2014, 11:28 PM
  #476
Easton Modano Curve
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
I think Leddy not making significant enough improvements is a legitimate knock... but saying he's the most replaceable player on the team. Bickell is making way more money, brings way less to the team.... isn't bickell's highest producing season 37 points, to Leddy's 38?

If he doesn't improve and has to move for the cap then he has to move... but I don't believe that should happen before Bickell goes.

And for those worried about Bickell's size and physical game being missed- recall that Bollig was more effective than Bickell this past RS - let that sink in for a moment.
At least to me right now, Bickell is a pure playoff performer. He had 80 hits in the playoffs. The next guy with the most hits had 41. As much as he disappointed during the regular season, I thought the Hawks needed him in the playoffs.

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07-10-2014, 11:36 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Easton Modano Curve View Post
At least to me right now, Bickell is a pure playoff performer. He had 80 hits in the playoffs. The next guy with the most hits had 41. As much as he disappointed during the regular season, I thought the Hawks needed him in the playoffs.
Fair enough - but his issue of playing to his potential when he feels like it follows him to the playoffs as well. He turns it up for one series and is invisible the next.

Is that sort of performance worth 4m cap hit? Not in my book

Also, for all the folks that seems to think its possible to build a roster that guarantees a cup win, I would think Bickell is the last player you would want on your team. He will never not be a coin flip, a roll of the dice. It really seems all or nothing with him, unfortunately.

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07-10-2014, 11:41 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
Fair enough - but his issue of playing to his potential when he feels like it follows him to the playoffs as well. He turns it up for one series and is invisible the next.

Is that sort of performance worth 4m cap hit? Not in my book

Also, for all the folks that seems to think its possible to build a roster that guarantees a cup win, I would think Bickell is the last player you would want on your team. He will never not be a coin flip, a roll of the dice. It really seems all or nothing with him, unfortunately.
Yeah, I don't like the cap hit. Don't like the regular season. But like what he brings in the playoffs.

If Hawks traded him I just think they need another big physical guy to come in. The team is only getting smaller if TT is coming over.

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07-10-2014, 11:49 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Easton Modano Curve View Post
For sure. In some ways you can't go wrong either way. Having Oduya and Leddy as 4/5 defenseman is pretty good IMO. It'll be interesting to see what direction they go b/c I feel like both of those guys are Bowman favorites. I'd say keep Leddy for sure, but he's disappointed big time in the playoffs. So kind of indifferent.
To be candid, part of my reticence is probably as a result of 'Leafs fan hangover' (after the Hawks, the Leafs are my favourite team). While it would obviously be idiotic to create any bridge b/w Hawks and Leafs management - I will say having watched the Leafs my entire life, I have become oh too familiar with young players tossed away by the Leafs who have blossomed elsewhere that I do become a bit twitchy when I think of the Hawks removing young players who have elite skills.

Like I said - Bowman has nothing to do with Leafs management's unending embrace of incompetence...but I am a human being and, even if I am being overly alarmist, it does come from a good place.

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07-11-2014, 03:02 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by zytz View Post
recall that Bollig was more effective than Bickell this past RS - let that sink in for a moment.
I don't really agree with this, unless you are holding Bickell missing games for being injured against him.

Bollig was completely worthless as an actual hockey player unless Q put him with Marcus Kruger and Ben Smith. He had zero chemistry with any other combination.

Although Bickell fared best when he got to be on a top line with Toews, I also liked him at the end of the regular season with Regin and Morin. That may also have been a time period where he finally was fully healthy and feeling good following injuries.

And if you are going by the tough guy/enforcer stuff... recall that Bollig did nothing when Toews was taken out against the Penguins. The next game when one of the Hawks' star players got hit and Bickell was in the lineup he went right after the opposing player that did it.

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07-11-2014, 03:04 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Easton Modano Curve View Post
At least to me right now, Bickell is a pure playoff performer. He had 80 hits in the playoffs. The next guy with the most hits had 41. As much as he disappointed during the regular season, I thought the Hawks needed him in the playoffs.
Totally.

It's impossible for me to put together a 2015-16 Hawks lineup that still has Bickell a member of the Hawks when the cap crunch comes, but that doesn't mean the Hawks won't miss the physicality he brings to things when playoff time comes. He also was a surprisingly good possession player this playoffs I thought.

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07-11-2014, 03:26 AM
  #482
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Yes, they are in a great position compared to us.

Just because Williams and Stoll can make that much money doesn't mean it will be with the Kings. They aren't essential players. Even if Muzzin get's $4mil it's not bad.

...and as far as Richards goes, the trade voided his NMC.

Lol, keep spinning it however you want but the Kings' situation is nowhere near as bad as ours. Nice try, though
Even if you minimize the Williams clutch factor, which I think is a mistake... how can you say Stoll is not an essential player for the Kings when the whole claim to fame of the Kings' superior depth is based on them having four great centers on each line?

Here is the 2015-16 Kings roster on cap geek presuming a $74 million cap:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster

FORWARDS
Marian Gaborik ($4.875m) / Anze Kopitar ($6.800m) / Dustin Brown ($5.875m)
??????/ Jeff Carter ($5.273m) / ??????
??????/ Mike Richards ($5.750m) / ??????
??????/ Trevor Lewis ($1.525m) / ??????

DEFENSEMEN
????????? / Drew Doughty ($7.000m)
????????? / Slava Voynov ($4.167m)
Jeff Schultz ($0.850m) / Matt Greene ($2.500m)

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Quick ($5.800m)
?????????

BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $74,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $50,414,394; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (11-man roster): $23,585,606

Just going by the guys currently under contract (and presuming they choose Mike Richards over Stoll... although I am not sure they will or should) that's 23.5 million to fill 6 winger spots, 2 top 4 D-man spots, a backup goalie, and any extra players.

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07-11-2014, 05:49 AM
  #483
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I still don't think Bickell should get traded.

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07-11-2014, 07:37 AM
  #484
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I still don't think Bickell should get traded.
Would you rather trade Sharp than Bickell? I agree that it is closer than people think.

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07-11-2014, 08:29 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
I still don't think Bickell should get traded.
Nor do I, but I also want to retain Sharp........ unless of course Hawks have decided it will take a few years before they are serious contenders for the SC again. If that's the case, any player over 30, with the exception of Keith, should be expendable if the return is decent. Bring up the prospects, let them show what they can do. And not for just 10 or 15 games, but for a good stint to let them adapt and prove they belong. Q will need to show some patience and drop his penchant of quickly rating a young player... but in truth, if we go with the youth movement, he may not be the best coach going forward.
But I'm getting ahead of myself (however, I can't help but think that largely due to the greed of our 2 star players, some serious decisions need to be made about the direction of this team).

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07-11-2014, 09:05 AM
  #486
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It doesn't really matter who we lose, it will be a pretty decent loss. Whether it be Sharp, Seabrook, Bickell, Oduya or Leddy. Versteeg is about the only one that wouldn't be a decent loss, but he isn't enough on his own so someone else will have to go.

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07-12-2014, 04:32 PM
  #487
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May have been discussed but how pissed do you think Keith is about his contract. I know it was really front loaded and can't recall the details but what a steal of a cap hit right now.

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07-12-2014, 04:49 PM
  #488
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Just hope he was happy with his past pay versus being dispondant about his future pay moving forward. Doubt that'll be an issue, though, as he's still making a pretty penny for the next couple years.

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07-12-2014, 04:56 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
May have been discussed but how pissed do you think Keith is about his contract. I know it was really front loaded and can't recall the details but what a steal of a cap hit right now.
Yes his deal was a steal but he said when he signed he was more concerned about the long term structure of the team meaning winning than the total or future dollars. Got a long term contract and security when he signed. Cant really describe how fortunate the team, the organization and the fans are to have someone like him.

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07-12-2014, 05:01 PM
  #490
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Yes his deal was a steal but he said when he signed he was more concerned about the long term structure of the team meaning winning than the total or future dollars. Got a long term contract and security when he signed. Cant really describe how fortunate the team, the organization and the fans are to have someone like him.
IIRC it expires when he turns 40 or so. Could definitely see him playing out the contract.

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07-12-2014, 05:12 PM
  #491
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May have been discussed but how pissed do you think Keith is about his contract. I know it was really front loaded and can't recall the details but what a steal of a cap hit right now.
If you have earned $70+ M after your career is over, you have absolutely no right to be pissed.

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07-12-2014, 05:26 PM
  #492
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IIRC it expires when he turns 40 or so. Could definitely see him playing out the contract.
Yup, I can see that as well. Hes still killing the Wingate or VO2 bike. I think he broke the pedal last year.

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07-12-2014, 05:52 PM
  #493
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If you have earned $70+ M after your career is over, you have absolutely no right to be pissed.
Easy for us to say, it really doesn't drop too bad until the last couple of years. He made 8.6 last year with bonuses.

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07-12-2014, 07:55 PM
  #494
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May have been discussed but how pissed do you think Keith is about his contract. I know it was really front loaded and can't recall the details but what a steal of a cap hit right now.
He can complain about it in his HHOF speech.

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07-12-2014, 08:39 PM
  #495
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The thing is non of us were upset(maybe just a little bit) when Sharp, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, Hammer, or any other guy got signed, even Bickell was ok(please dont respond to this post talking about Bickel that is not the point here), I mean all of them took their worth pretty much or even took a pay cut and that even goes to the Kane and Toews first contract. But this Newly signed one just does not make any sense from any perspective, these guys fully understand that their contracts will handicap the team yet they still signed them and I am sure they were probably going to 12.5 and it was brought down with negotiations. It just disgusts me a little bit that these guys dont really care about winning, fans, or their team mates that they have to sign such a ridiculous contract.

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07-12-2014, 11:41 PM
  #496
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Now we're questioning Toews and his desire to win. Hooookay.

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07-12-2014, 11:51 PM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Blackhawks View Post
The thing is non of us were upset(maybe just a little bit) when Sharp, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, Hammer, or any other guy got signed, even Bickell was ok(please dont respond to this post talking about Bickel that is not the point here), I mean all of them took their worth pretty much or even took a pay cut and that even goes to the Kane and Toews first contract. But this Newly signed one just does not make any sense from any perspective, these guys fully understand that their contracts will handicap the team yet they still signed them and I am sure they were probably going to 12.5 and it was brought down with negotiations. It just disgusts me a little bit that these guys dont really care about winning, fans, or their team mates that they have to sign such a ridiculous contract.
The conn smythe winner from the 2010 cup team and the conn smythe winner from the 2013 cup team don't care about winning

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07-12-2014, 11:54 PM
  #498
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if they cared about winning they would have signed for 8 years 7 per

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07-12-2014, 11:59 PM
  #499
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Why can't Toews and Kane be more like Bollig?

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07-13-2014, 12:05 AM
  #500
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...they could actually be doing us a favour by forcing the deadweight off the team!

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