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The Armchair GM Thread - LXXXII

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Old
07-12-2014, 02:51 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
His results have been worse with worse players? Go figure

I probably reached a little with the Hansen comparison but imo it's a big deal that Dorsett has shown he can play those minutes. I've been banging this drum for a while... having a 4th line that can play tough defensive minutes is a big deal for a hockey team. The effect it has compared to a 4th line that doesn't play or has to be sheltered is drastic. We need it.
Dorsett can play those minutes when he's the worst player on his line. When he's playing with other players at his level the results are no better than the Canucks were getting from a guy like Lapierre. Seems like an odd target to acquire via trade.

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Old
07-12-2014, 02:52 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
His results have been worse with worse players? Go figure

I probably reached a little with the Hansen comparison but imo it's a big deal that Dorsett has shown he can play those minutes. I've been banging this drum for a while... having a 4th line that can play tough defensive minutes is a big deal for a hockey team. The effect it has compared to a 4th line that doesn't play or has to be sheltered is drastic. We need it.
You're reaching big time. I think the best that can be said for Dorsett is that if you want a guy that can fight, he's a decent choice. If he's on a 4th line that can play 10-11 minutes (Richardson/Matthias are 2/3 of an above-avg 4th line), he's probably not a player that will hurt the line. He can chip in 7-9 goals and can provide at least mediocre results in middling difficulty 4th line minutes. That's actually a not bad feature for a 4th line.

I tend to think they overpaid for him and didn't love the move. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I'll also note that far worse options like Engelland got astronomical contracts, and Bollig returned a similar pick (and is an inferior player imo), so it's not terrible. It's the same reaction I've had to most of Benning's moves: I don't think they're pointed in quite the right direction, but I do think they're at least accomplishing decent value (not good, but decent) on the moves they are making.

Probably the best thing for this team next year would be a few key injuries and a forced tank, though.

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Old
07-12-2014, 02:57 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
You're reaching big time. I think the best that can be said for Dorsett is that if you want a guy that can fight, he's a decent choice. If he's on a 4th line that can play 10-11 minutes (Richardson/Matthias are 2/3 of an above-avg 4th line), he's probably not a player that will hurt the line. He can chip in 7-9 goals and can provide at least mediocre results in middling difficulty 4th line minutes. That's actually a not bad feature for a 4th line.

I tend to think they overpaid for him and didn't love the move. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I'll also note that far worse options like Engelland got astronomical contracts, and Bollig returned a similar pick (and is an inferior player imo), so it's not terrible. It's the same reaction I've had to most of Benning's moves: I don't think they're pointed in quite the right direction, but I do think they're at least accomplishing decent value (not good, but decent) on the moves they are making.

Probably the best thing for this team next year would be a few key injuries and a forced tank, though.
If thats the case a guy like Dorsett who competes on a game to game basis, will fight and hit will provide good entertainment for the fans. I'd like to see them bring another one in too make life a living hell for visiting teams.

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07-12-2014, 02:58 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Dorsett can play those minutes when he's the worst player on his line. When he's playing with other players at his level the results are no better than the Canucks were getting from a guy like Lapierre. Seems like an odd target to acquire via trade.
Not sure I'd go quite that far. Lapierre has the worst CORSIREL in the NHL over the past three seasons. Not sure what happened, but he pretty much lost it.

(Not saying CORSIREL is the be all end all of statistics, but it suggests that Lapierre was routinely far and away the worst player on his team... except when he played with Tanner Glass, in which case they competed with each other to be the worst in the NHL )

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07-12-2014, 02:58 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Dorsett can play those minutes when he's the worst player on his line. When he's playing with other players at his level the results are no better than the Canucks were getting from a guy like Lapierre. Seems like an odd target to acquire via trade.
How good do you think Boyle and Moore are? Richardson > Moore imo, though I do like Boyle.

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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
You're reaching big time. I think the best that can be said for Dorsett is that if you want a guy that can fight, he's a decent choice. If he's on a 4th line that can play 10-11 minutes (Richardson/Matthias are 2/3 of an above-avg 4th line), he's probably not a player that will hurt the line. He can chip in 7-9 goals and can provide at least mediocre results in middling difficulty 4th line minutes. That's actually a not bad feature for a 4th line.

I tend to think they overpaid for him and didn't love the move. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I'll also note that far worse options like Engelland got astronomical contracts, and Bollig returned a similar pick (and is an inferior player imo), so it's not terrible. It's the same reaction I've had to most of Benning's moves: I don't think they're pointed in quite the right direction, but I do think they're at least accomplishing decent value (not good, but decent) on the moves they are making.

Probably the best thing for this team next year would be a few key injuries and a forced tank, though.
Or great results in very difficult minutes. You're not going to acknowledge that he had a pretty great year playing the same role Hansen did for AV? He was playing with Dominic Moore and Brian Boyle, it's not like he was being carried by a couple studs.

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Old
07-12-2014, 03:10 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Or great results in very difficult minutes. You're not going to acknowledge that he had a pretty great year playing the same role Hansen did for AV? He was playing with Dominic Moore and Brian Boyle, it's not like he was being carried by a couple studs.
I think Moore and Boyle are both better players, but Hansen provided 300% more offense in the same role. Yes, it's nice to saw off minutes, but doing it without providing very much offense is of far less utility. Look at their GF rates. Hansen is a significantly better player for only 900k more a season.

Dorsett to me could be an above average 4th liner if he's in the right situation. I don't think a 3rd is bad value for that necessarily, but I'm also not sure it was something this team specifically needed. But if it means not seeing Sestito, I can live with it.

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Old
07-12-2014, 03:18 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I think Moore and Boyle are both better players, but Hansen provided 300% more offense in the same role. Yes, it's nice to saw off minutes, but doing it without providing very much offense is of far less utility. Look at their GF rates. Hansen is a significantly better player for only 900k more a season.
Better than who? Definitely not better than Malhotra/Torres.

Hansen is a better player. Having a guy that can play those defensive minutes for 900k less is a good deal imo.

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Dorsett to me could be an above average 4th liner if he's in the right situation. I don't think a 3rd is bad value for that necessarily, but I'm also not sure it was something this team specifically needed. But if it means not seeing Sestito, I can live with it.
You're still not giving him his due. Whatever.

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Old
07-12-2014, 03:21 PM
  #758
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I don't want to rag on Dorsett because I don't hate the guy, I just don't believe he is a guy you spend a 3rd round pick on...he's a 4th line agitator. If we have a good showing by one or two of our prospects, a guy like Dorsett could be spending a lot of time in the press box.

I don't have a problem with bringing a guy like Dorsett in as a depth player, but a 3rd round pick is way too much IMO.

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Old
07-12-2014, 03:27 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I don't want to rag on Dorsett because I don't hate the guy, I just don't believe he is a guy you spend a 3rd round pick on...he's a 4th line agitator. If we have a good showing by one or two of our prospects, a guy like Dorsett could be spending a lot of time in the press box.

I don't have a problem with bringing a guy like Dorsett in as a depth player, but a 3rd round pick is way too much IMO.
The move clearly indicates Benning targeted specific players for each position, especially Dorsett and Vey. Not surprised Desjardins coached both of them. I don't see any prospect with the ability to take over Dorsett's 4th line RW position. We don't have those prospects ready. Archibald, Lain did not show much improvement last year.

If a guy like Horvat, Fox or Gaunce makes the team, it certainly won't be at the expense of Dorsett, but rather Hansen. Benning wants the 4th line to be physical and gritty.

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Old
07-12-2014, 03:32 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
The move clearly indicates Benning targeted specific players for each position, especially Dorsett and Vey. Not surprised Desjardins coached both of them. I don't see any prospect with the ability to take over Dorsett's 4th line RW position. We don't have those prospects ready. Archibald, Lain did not show much improvement last year.

If a guy like Horvat, Fox or Gaunce makes the team, it certainly won't be at the expense of Dorsett, but rather Hansen. Benning wants the 4th line to be physical and gritty.
If Dorsett is in the lineup over Hansen then our coach has rocks for brains.

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Old
07-12-2014, 05:30 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I don't want to rag on Dorsett because I don't hate the guy, I just don't believe he is a guy you spend a 3rd round pick on...he's a 4th line agitator. If we have a good showing by one or two of our prospects, a guy like Dorsett could be spending a lot of time in the press box.

I don't have a problem with bringing a guy like Dorsett in as a depth player, but a 3rd round pick is way too much IMO.
In a vacuum sure, but we all know he was brought to the club for more than his playing ability.

If you're chasing a guy, sometimes you have to cough up. You guys can whine about the value forever, but he was still on contract and Benning/Willie wanted him.

At least we didn't sign Pouliot or Engelland. Or Scott (lol SJ).

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07-12-2014, 05:41 PM
  #762
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dorsett is "pretty good, for a plug". this isn't worth a lot of money.

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07-12-2014, 07:01 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I don't want to rag on Dorsett because I don't hate the guy, I just don't believe he is a guy you spend a 3rd round pick on...he's a 4th line agitator. If we have a good showing by one or two of our prospects, a guy like Dorsett could be spending a lot of time in the press box.

I don't have a problem with bringing a guy like Dorsett in as a depth player, but a 3rd round pick is way too much IMO.
Dorsett was part of the NYR's 4th line which did very well. He can play good hockey, he can cycle, he can hit, he can skate. He does everything alot better than Sestito. We needed more depth and more competition in our lineup, get a quantity of guys and let them dig it out. A 3rd round pick is a 3rd round pick, we have a load of prospects but we don't have a load of NHL depth.

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Old
07-12-2014, 07:07 PM
  #764
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The negatives either had to happen, apparently, (Kesler, the moving of a defender), led to better things (Garrison and Kesler being moved gave us additional cap space to pursue free agents we might not have been able to sign otherwise), or was bad simply due to the imaginations of HFers (Kesler not returning Ottawa's 1st, Silfverberg and Etem, not moving Edler for Kane+, not getting Reinhart, not getting Statsny, Niskanen, probably Kane/Toews).

The team hasn't even fully formed this summer and the new management is already catching crap? I just don't get it. We wanted or saw the need for moves, we got them, and yet everyone is absolutist that Benning/Linden are either saviours or the devil(s). Let's see what this product looks like before we ask for an exchange.
Great idea, but it will never happen. Most of these guys agree to disagree on everything and anything because it's the most fun.

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Old
07-12-2014, 11:11 PM
  #765
Canucker
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Originally Posted by BobbyJazzLegs View Post
In a vacuum sure, but we all know he was brought to the club for more than his playing ability.

If you're chasing a guy, sometimes you have to cough up. You guys can whine about the value forever, but he was still on contract and Benning/Willie wanted him.

At least we didn't sign Pouliot or Engelland. Or Scott (lol SJ).

I question the thought process behind "going after" a guy like Dorsett and overpaying for him...a 3rd rounder for a run of the mill 4th line plug is over priced.

And I wouldn't have minded Pouliot, but not at $4m/year.


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Originally Posted by Ray Ferraro View Post
Dorsett was part of the NYR's 4th line which did very well. He can play good hockey, he can cycle, he can hit, he can skate. He does everything alot better than Sestito. We needed more depth and more competition in our lineup, get a quantity of guys and let them dig it out. A 3rd round pick is a 3rd round pick, we have a load of prospects but we don't have a load of NHL depth.
I'm not going to argue that he's not better than Sestito, a shaved ape could replace Sestito. If you are looking for depth players, look to UFA's....plus the Rangers were looking to shed salary, I doubt they had GM's banging down their door, fighting to get their paws on Dorsett.

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Old
07-12-2014, 11:24 PM
  #766
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We don't know how this team will perform, so calling the moves bad, or the process bad, is incredibly premature.
the result isn't relevant to the discussion. how do you not understand this?

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07-12-2014, 11:28 PM
  #767
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dorsett is "pretty good, for a plug". this isn't worth a lot of money.
Def not for a 3rd rounder. And especially considering the Rangers were in a cap crunch

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07-12-2014, 11:33 PM
  #768
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If Dorsett is in the lineup over Hansen then our coach has rocks for brains.
Yep. Solid 4th liner but not in Hansen's league.

Dorsett is a 192lb lightweight, he'll get molested by McGrattan or Gazdic, so he's no Sestito replacement. Dorsett should be the upgrade for Sestito though that we can play every game and allow us to sit Sestito expect for games against teams with heavies or big middle weights that just want to fight.

His role shoul be as a handy 4th liner that doesn't mind dropping the gloves against good players and small-medium sized pests.

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Old
07-12-2014, 11:52 PM
  #769
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We should really target O'Reilly but the price would be high.

Kesler 2.0


Last edited by Canadian Canuck: 07-13-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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07-13-2014, 02:09 AM
  #770
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Originally Posted by Bad Goalie View Post
Great idea, but it will never happen. Most of these guys agree to disagree on everything and anything because it's the most fun.
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Instructions:

1. Go down basement stairs.
2. Enter basement.
3. Close basement door.
4. Find an open wall.
5. Beat head repeatedly on brick wall.
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Rinse and repeat from thread to thread.
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Originally Posted by Bad Goalie View Post
Touche'! LOL, couldn't have finished it better.
I'm sensing a pattern here.

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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
the result isn't relevant to the discussion. how do you not understand this?
How can you judge a good process from bad by entirely discounting the result of said process? Managing a hockey club doesn't have a set formula that will determine success or failure in an absolute fashion. If there was, wouldn't every GM and every team be adhering to it religiously then?

So far Benning moved a player he had to move, and a player that allegedly wanted out. He's resigned nearly all our RFAs, signed three minor UFAs, and two UFAs expected to make some impact to areas of weakness on our roster, plus brought in a new coach to match their reported team philosophy. This is where you're viewing a problem with Benning/Linden's process, and I'm not seeing a problem, and where you and I fundamentally disagree.

Not taking the whole picture of the team into account with any additions or subtraction, especially given the limitations and mitigating factors forcing some of these actions, is just looking for evidence for a pre-existing opinion.

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07-13-2014, 05:05 AM
  #771
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How can you judge a good process from bad by entirely discounting the result of said process? Managing a hockey club doesn't have a set formula that will determine success or failure in an absolute fashion. If there was, wouldn't every GM and every team be adhering to it religiously then?
no, lots of gms are legitimately stupid old boys that got the job because of other stupid old boys

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07-13-2014, 12:31 PM
  #772
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Yep. Solid 4th liner but not in Hansen's league.

Dorsett is a 192lb lightweight, he'll get molested by McGrattan or Gazdic, so he's no Sestito replacement. Dorsett should be the upgrade for Sestito though that we can play every game and allow us to sit Sestito expect for games against teams with heavies or big middle weights that just want to fight.

His role shoul be as a handy 4th liner that doesn't mind dropping the gloves against good players and small-medium sized pests.
Ryp wasn't the biggest guy..sometimes its the fight in the dog..

That said I agree I would love to bring in a heavy upgrade on Sestito. Toughen this team up and make Rogers Arena a real nightmare to play in for other team.

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07-13-2014, 03:07 PM
  #773
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How can you judge a good process from bad by entirely discounting the result of said process?
The issue is that the team's subsequent success or failure will be only in part be attributable to whatever Benning is doing. There will be many factors in play, not least of which will be luck. And since the causal link between Benning's moves and the team's overall results is so tenuous, sometimes the results of a process can in fact be misleading about the efficacy of said process.

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Old
07-13-2014, 03:10 PM
  #774
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Dorsett will become a fan favorite. And will be a super useful bottom 6 winger.

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07-13-2014, 03:30 PM
  #775
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How does Dorsett compare to guys like Weise or Lapierre?

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