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Where does Brett Hull rank all-time?

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Old
07-10-2014, 03:28 PM
  #26
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ovechkin also drove puck possession in a way Hull never did and was a much more productive playmaker. I think current Ovechkin, the one who doesn't handle the puck much but gets in position to take passes from teammates to shoot, plays a very similar style to Hull.
I'd agree that Hull had more of a goalscoring bias in his play than Ovechkin but although Hull is most famous for that one-timer.. I think you'd downplaying a bit how much else Hull did at least during his prime years.

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07-10-2014, 03:31 PM
  #27
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I'd agree that Hull had more of a goalscoring bias in his play than Ovechkin but although Hull is most famous for that one-timer.. I think you'd downplaying a bit how much else Hull did at least during his prime years.
What else did Hull do?

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07-10-2014, 09:12 PM
  #28
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What else did Hull do?
Occasionally provide a glib or pithy remark, sometimes a pouting one.

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07-10-2014, 10:54 PM
  #29
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What else did Hull do?
Carry the puck a lot more than you seem to be implying with the current Ovechkin comparison.

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:52 PM
  #30
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Yes.

Saying Oates deserves *as much* credit as Hull is nonsense.

Hull scored at a 76 goal pace in the quarter season without Oates in 1990-91 when the replacement was obviously not the playmaker Oates was..

That being said -- of course they had great chemistry and played very well together and no doubt helped one another.
What do you mean "in the quarter of a season without Oates"? How many games? It's important to be able to figure out just how much better he was with Oates, since it's bound to be better then the 86 goal pace if 76 was it without him.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Saying Oates deserves *as much* credit as Hull is nonsense.
I think it's hard to say it's exactly 50-50, but to be sure Oates averaged 1.89 points per game and Hull 1.68. So that leaves a bit of room even for people who, just like me, think the average goal are worth more then aforemost all the average secondary assist.


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Old
07-11-2014, 07:35 AM
  #31
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What do you mean "in the quarter of a season without Oates"? How many games? It's important to be able to figure out just how much better he was with Oates, since it's bound to be better then the 86 goal pace if 76 was it without him.

I think it's hard to say it's exactly 50-50, but to be sure Oates averaged 1.89 points per game and Hull 1.68. So that leaves a bit of room even for people who, just like me, think the average goal are worth more then aforemost all the average secondary assist.
If Hull was scoring at a 76 goal pace without him and scored 70+ when Peter Zezel had as many assists on his goals as Oates did.. I think it is fair to say that Oates deserves some credit for helping push him up to 86 but 50-50 credit is pretty rich for 10 goals out of 70-80 goals or so..

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07-11-2014, 09:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
If Hull was scoring at a 76 goal pace without him and scored 70+ when Peter Zezel had as many assists on his goals as Oates did.. I think it is fair to say that Oates deserves some credit for helping push him up to 86 but 50-50 credit is pretty rich for 10 goals out of 70-80 goals or so..
10 goals? I thought this link that Hawkey Down provided in post 5 said 41. The 50-50 credit obviously means Oates points as well, in a package. A claim that they in that case were equals offensively, nothing else. That should be obvious to anyone that does not think goals, goals, goals, then maybe after a few more goals, an assist can be admitted.


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Old
07-11-2014, 10:21 AM
  #33
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10 goals? I thought this link that Hawkey Down provided in post 5 said 41. The 50-50 credit obviously means Oates points as well, in a package. A claim that they in that case were equals offensively, nothing else. That should be obvious to anyone that does not think goals, goals, goals, then maybe after a few more goals, an assist can be admitted.
You can't take these stats in a vacuum. You have to essentially compare Hull's goals w/ Oates vs. Hull's goals w/ replacement 1st line center.


I.e. instead of Oates, give Hull an "average" 1st line center. Hull would likely score at least 70 goals still in that season, so in other words, Oates added 10-15 goals on top of what Hull would expect with a more average center.

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Old
07-11-2014, 10:25 AM
  #34
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You can't take these stats in a vacuum. You have to essentially compare Hull's goals w/ Oates vs. Hull's goals w/ replacement 1st line center.


I.e. instead of Oates, give Hull an "average" 1st line center. Hull would likely score at least 70 goals still in that season, so in other words, Oates added 10-15 goals on top of what Hull would expect with a more average center.
Dont you think i know that? This has been shown in the thread.

All we really need to conclude here is that Hull's 86-goal season risks giving a false picture of him amongst the all-time great players and goal scorers. Some people are obsessed with bringing that number up. Obviously the era he did it in does not help either. He was a great goal scorer with good longivety, but there are a number of players better a goal scorer then he is. Not many, but they exist.

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07-11-2014, 02:33 PM
  #35
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I had him on the #53-76 tier on the all-time pyramid.

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07-11-2014, 04:21 PM
  #36
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I suppose Mario's 85 goal season is an outlier too. He never approached that total again. Only 99 approached his 92 goal season with 87 two years later and scored 70 or more for 4 years. Not to mention scoring 200+ points 5 out of 6 years.

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07-11-2014, 04:40 PM
  #37
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Among the top 100 players of all time.

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07-12-2014, 06:28 AM
  #38
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Somewhere between Judas Iscariot and Benedict Arnold, maybe in the Guy Fawkes range. Top 10 for sure.

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07-12-2014, 09:09 AM
  #39
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Somewhere between Judas Iscariot and Benedict Arnold, maybe in the Guy Fawkes range. Top 10 for sure.
What, no Brutus?

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07-12-2014, 09:46 AM
  #40
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What, no Brutus?
Brutus is overrated. Nothing without Shakespeare. Hull ranks well above him...

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Old
07-12-2014, 08:36 PM
  #41
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I have Hull ranked #6 among right wingers behind Howe, Jagr, Richard, Lafleur and Bossy with apologies to Selanne and Kurri.

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07-12-2014, 08:37 PM
  #42
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Bondra scored 52 playing on a line with Nikolishin/Pivonka. He only played regularly with Oates on the PP. Only 11 of Bondra's 52 were on the PP btw.
2 outta 3 ain't bad...

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Old
07-13-2014, 09:45 AM
  #43
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Adam Oates missed 19 games in 1990-91. In those 19 games, Hull scored I believe 18 goals (I did the work before but can't recall exactly and I dont feel like doing it again). Slightly off pace, but still good enough for 76 goals over 80 games. Who really knows what he does with that over a whole season. Possibly a few less, but it's also quite possible he scores a few more. He was still about a goal a game pace though.

I'm positive that Hull played mostly with Peter Zezel the season prior too when he popped 72 and outscored Oates by 11 points in the same number of games.

And Wayne Gretzky was a 200 point player for a brief window himself. Still played with Kurri afterwards but didnt hit that mark again. Players just dont peak and then stay there for a real extended period of time. Hull's no different.

The chemistry between the two was unreal, but the whole "Oates made Hull" thing gets overblown. Imagine having a player on the ice with you that can get open like Hull could. Kind of makes your job a lot easier when it comes to dishing off the puck.

I think Ed Wood's ranking above is close. Ranking Hull #6 behind Howe, Jagr, Richard, Bossy, and Lafleur. That's pretty accurate. Place Howe and Jagr at #1 and #2 and you could almost put the others in a hat though.


Last edited by tjcurrie: 07-13-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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Old
07-14-2014, 03:01 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
All we really need to conclude here is that Hull's 86-goal season risks giving a false picture of him amongst the all-time great players and goal scorers.
I don't agree with this at all. How is it "false" when he actually did it? Now, if you're saying he only did 80+ goals once, that's valid -- but he did 70+ goals three years in a row, which only one other player in history has done.

Further, if you want to dismiss the raw stats (again which aren't imagined or pro-rated, but which he actually achieved - itself a sketchy position to start from), you can then look at the level of domination over his peers. As pointed out elsewhere, Hull's 86 goals was 35 more than 2nd-best in the NHL. That is crazy domination, regardless of raw stats.

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07-14-2014, 03:06 AM
  #45
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And Wayne Gretzky was a 200 point player for a brief window himself. Still played with Kurri afterwards but didnt hit that mark again.
Let's put these two in perspective here -- Gretzky scored at a 200-point pace from January 1981 to December 1986. That's six years straight, which is exactly twice as long as Hull was a 70-goal scorer. Rather significant difference.

Further, in 1987 when Gretzky scored "only" 183 points, scoring in the NHL was down and Gretzky actually won the scoring title by the largest percentage over 2nd-place in his career. Likewise, he was on pace for 184 points his last year in Edmonton, but lost 16 games to injury.

So, basically, we can say Gretzky at his most elite peak from January 1981 to spring 1988. That's 7.5 seasons, which is way longer than Hull's goal-scoring peak of three. (Not that Hull's other 40+/50+ goal seasons are anything to sneeze at.)

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Old
07-14-2014, 10:05 AM
  #46
Wrath
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Dont you think i know that? This has been shown in the thread.
It has indeed but yet you say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
10 goals? I thought this link that Hawkey Down provided in post 5 said 41. The 50-50 credit obviously means Oates points as well, in a package. A claim that they in that case were equals offensively, nothing else. That should be obvious to anyone that does not think goals, goals, goals, then maybe after a few more goals, an assist can be admitted.
Oates gets credit for providing 10-15 more goals than the average first line center.

I am not sure where the 50-50 comes in then. Are Oates and Hull 50-50 responsible for getting those extra 10-15 goals? So we're saying that Oates and Hull helped each other net 10-15 extra assists and goals respectively? Okay. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Hull would have scored 70+ goals with a pedestrian first line center.


I don't understand why you're trying downgrade Hull on the count that Oates maybe bumped him up from a 70-75 goal scorer to a 86 goal scorer for one season. So he isn't, on his own, as good at goal scoring as Mario or Gretzky..... He still peaks above Bossy, Bure, etc. even with "just" 3 consecutive 70+ goal seasons.

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