HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Rink
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Rink For the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.

Beer League Frustrations Vent Thread II

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-11-2014, 02:16 PM
  #476
Malarowski
Registered User
 
Malarowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 380
vCash: 500
Yeah I once got run over while on all fours, didn't feel great and once I got completely wrecked by a guy backchecking and just staying on course while I cut inside. The second one yielded a penalty though, but sure didn't feel great. It happens, if somebody ever was malicious, the refs would have handled it I am sure.

Malarowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-11-2014, 02:45 PM
  #477
Mr Fahrenheit
Valar Morghulis
 
Mr Fahrenheit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
I thought of another one, although minor:

I play in a weekly pick-up skate that's been going on for a few years now. Mix of skill levels ranging from one or two Junior A (Tier III) guys to guys in their 40s and 50s just looking to have fun. Some father-son combos out there. Everyone is respectful for the most part and there's never any fighting or problems.

The one think that irks me however is the team composition. Every week the organizer of the skate assigns jersey colors while we're getting dressed. He plays white every week, and his team is almost always better than the black team. Sometimes it's only a slight difference, other nights it seems like black is on the penalty kill.

Most of us have played together for years, so there's no real excuse for not knowing how good certain players are or which team is likely to outperform the other. It's immediately evident during warm-ups how the night is going to play out.

He's not a super competitive guy and just seems to be out there to genuinely have fun, which makes it more inexplicable in a way. But whether it's intentional or subconscious, it can be frustrating some nights trying to break the cycle of three or four very good high school players while both your defensemen on the ice are on the wrong side of 50.

It's not losing that bothers me as much as just the unbalanced nature of play, for example spending an entire shift feeling helpless on the wing while your team can't execute a simple breakout. I don't care if I "lose" a pick-up skate when it's all said and done, as long as there's some good back and forth trading of chances and a decent amount of time in the opposition's zone.
When he assigns jerseys on the locker room, if they are unbalanced nicely ask him to redo the teams

Mr Fahrenheit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2014, 08:41 AM
  #478
Ozz
Registered User
 
Ozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hockeytown
Country: United States
Posts: 7,008
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fahrenheit View Post
When he assigns jerseys on the locker room, if they are unbalanced nicely ask him to redo the teams
I'd agree. When we have an open/scrimmage type night like that, whenever the teams end up lopsided, we swap a few players around to even it out. It really makes it better for all involved.

Ozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2014, 12:12 PM
  #479
wingfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malarowski View Post
No, you don't ever need a 'goon'. They are borderline useless in the NHL and I doubt having a meathead in beer league won't help.

If there is somebody cheap shotting people, just tell the ref. They are usually good about taking care of that. There is virtually never a reason to go outside of the rules and take justice in your own hands.
I don't know man, I play in a league with a lot of young kids(18-24) and they always get chippy. I had a kid want to drop the gloves with me because I was standing in front of the net screening the goalie. He elbowed me in the back of the head, butt ending me, etc. the refs didn't do a thing until I got the puck down low and he literally bear hugged me and tackled me to the ice. When he got out of the box he tried fighting me, I told him to piss off, he kept coming at me, so I went to the bench and sent my brother out. I think he mistook my brother for me and started going at him, tried cross checking him in the head, my brother snapped the kids stick, and put him on his ass. Didn't see anymore of that garbage from him the rest of the game...

wingfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-12-2014, 10:50 PM
  #480
AD1066
HFBoards Sponsor
 
AD1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
I'd agree. When we have an open/scrimmage type night like that, whenever the teams end up lopsided, we swap a few players around to even it out. It really makes it better for all involved.
Yeah, I've brought it up before and so have a few other guys. He'll swap one or two inconsequential players or give us one extra player so we can somehow "wear down the other team". As if giving us one more 40 year old on the bench is going to tire out a bunch of 21-24 year olds.

It doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but some shifts are definitely frustrating when you spend the entire time in the defensive zone. Just disappointing really after a few minutes on the bench, you finally get out there and it's effectively a penalty kill.

Also the frustration is compounded by the fact that several of the older attendees demand to play defense every shift, and if you're already out there playing defense, they'll come out and demand that you go play forward. Then you get to watch as a winger as they get burned repeatedly. I understand it's easier on them, but it's also my natural position.

AD1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-13-2014, 09:07 AM
  #481
Ozz
Registered User
 
Ozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hockeytown
Country: United States
Posts: 7,008
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
Yeah, I've brought it up before and so have a few other guys. He'll swap one or two inconsequential players or give us one extra player so we can somehow "wear down the other team". As if giving us one more 40 year old on the bench is going to tire out a bunch of 21-24 year olds.

It doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but some shifts are definitely frustrating when you spend the entire time in the defensive zone. Just disappointing really after a few minutes on the bench, you finally get out there and it's effectively a penalty kill.

Also the frustration is compounded by the fact that several of the older attendees demand to play defense every shift, and if you're already out there playing defense, they'll come out and demand that you go play forward. Then you get to watch as a winger as they get burned repeatedly. I understand it's easier on them, but it's also my natural position.
That's just stupid of him. Sucks that you and the others have to deal with that.

I play on teams that vary in talent, and we often mix the groups at our private practices/scrimmages so we can all get some competitive playing time. Since I know everyone, I do well at splitting up teams so all is fair. Once in a while the less talented guys want a real challenge so they have me team up w/the more talented guys and we put the screws to 'em. Sometimes we have a couple plugs with us, and if we trade them over and play short-handed then that only helps us as we have less to worry about and more ice to skate on. Kinda the same point you brought up where changing 1-2 guys doesn't help AT ALL and may as well be a slap in the face at appearing to care about the people you're playing with. For us, whenever we have a couple of the best guys playing, we like to round out their team w/the worst of whose left. Then they can even out while the good players try to set up the others for some goals all night.

Ozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2014, 03:44 PM
  #482
ChiTownHawks
Registered User
 
ChiTownHawks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orland Park, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
That's just stupid of him. Sucks that you and the others have to deal with that.

I play on teams that vary in talent, and we often mix the groups at our private practices/scrimmages so we can all get some competitive playing time. Since I know everyone, I do well at splitting up teams so all is fair. Once in a while the less talented guys want a real challenge so they have me team up w/the more talented guys and we put the screws to 'em. Sometimes we have a couple plugs with us, and if we trade them over and play short-handed then that only helps us as we have less to worry about and more ice to skate on. Kinda the same point you brought up where changing 1-2 guys doesn't help AT ALL and may as well be a slap in the face at appearing to care about the people you're playing with. For us, whenever we have a couple of the best guys playing, we like to round out their team w/the worst of whose left. Then they can even out while the good players try to set up the others for some goals all night.
This point exactly. Getting a couple more bad players will make things worse and not better.

No matter how nice this guy is off the ice he is taking advantage of the fact that he runs the skate. It's sad that some people want to win that bad in rat hockey.

ChiTownHawks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2014, 04:42 PM
  #483
MattGTI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Milford
Country: United States
Posts: 238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownHawks View Post
This point exactly. Getting a couple more bad players will make things worse and not better.

No matter how nice this guy is off the ice he is taking advantage of the fact that he runs the skate. It's sad that some people want to win that bad in rat hockey.
I used to play in a pickup that was run the same way. The guy organizing it did a great job of ensuring 20 guys, and two goalies were there for the 2+ hour skate every week. He was an extremely nice guy, everyone there got along for the most part, and as it was a lot of fun for a few months.

Then, instead of switching teams up every week, certain guys would only play with certain other guys, one goalie was a lot better than the other(so certain guys flocked to that side), the guy running it was always on the dominant team, and so on and so forth. It was becoming very lopsided, teams were never changing, and a lot of the fun for many of the guys was taken out of it(on both sides). A lot of guys dropped off, and last I heard the skate wasn't happening anymore.

I found a better skate, with all the same things that were good about the first, only there are different teams each week. Its solid. I can't make it out there too often(I have 2 league games a week, and with a 10 month old son, I honestly don't need/want to be out more than two nights a week). So all hope isn't lost. There are still guys that want to have a good, clean, uptempo, fair skate, out there.

MattGTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 08:57 AM
  #484
ChiTownHawks
Registered User
 
ChiTownHawks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orland Park, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGTI View Post
I used to play in a pickup that was run the same way. The guy organizing it did a great job of ensuring 20 guys, and two goalies were there for the 2+ hour skate every week. He was an extremely nice guy, everyone there got along for the most part, and as it was a lot of fun for a few months.

Then, instead of switching teams up every week, certain guys would only play with certain other guys, one goalie was a lot better than the other(so certain guys flocked to that side), the guy running it was always on the dominant team, and so on and so forth. It was becoming very lopsided, teams were never changing, and a lot of the fun for many of the guys was taken out of it(on both sides). A lot of guys dropped off, and last I heard the skate wasn't happening anymore.

I found a better skate, with all the same things that were good about the first, only there are different teams each week. Its solid. I can't make it out there too often(I have 2 league games a week, and with a 10 month old son, I honestly don't need/want to be out more than two nights a week). So all hope isn't lost. There are still guys that want to have a good, clean, uptempo, fair skate, out there.
Glad to hear you found a better skate.

I guess I just can't imagine grown men acting like this, well actually I can, but it still surprises me. Anytime we play pick up, where we rent the ice and are in control of the teams, we always try to make it fair. Sometimes it does not work out and during the game one of the better players will switch jerseys to open things up. I am always open to switching to the worse team if I think it will even the field and so is everyone else I play with. Also if we asked someone to move saying no would not really be an option.

ChiTownHawks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 09:11 AM
  #485
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacifist Goon View Post
You need a goon on your team. Not someone that will drop the gloves and chase the guy around the ice, but someone that will introduce themselves first and then if the behaviour is repeated, at the appropriate time and opportunity will absolutely rock the guy, with interest. All's fair in love, war and even beer league if someone else wants to start something or go around cheap shotting people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malarowski View Post
No, you don't ever need a 'goon'. They are borderline useless in the NHL and I doubt having a meathead in beer league won't help.

If there is somebody cheap shotting people, just tell the ref. They are usually good about taking care of that. There is virtually never a reason to go outside of the rules and take justice in your own hands.
I have to agree with Pacifist here. If someone is continuing to cross the line or crosses it badly once, I think someone needs to self police them. Most refs don't want to deal with it, just want to get the game done and out of there. Even if they do something, a penalty or suspension means nothing to me if someone 2 hands me across the back, goes for a cross check to my face, full speed blind side elbows me in the head, etc. (All things that have happened, by the way.) I'm not going to "tell the ref", I'm going to show the player how I feel about it.

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 11:39 AM
  #486
Trl3789
Registered User
 
Trl3789's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryer98 View Post
I have to agree with Pacifist here. If someone is continuing to cross the line or crosses it badly once, I think someone needs to self police them. Most refs don't want to deal with it, just want to get the game done and out of there. Even if they do something, a penalty or suspension means nothing to me if someone 2 hands me across the back, goes for a cross check to my face, full speed blind side elbows me in the head, etc. (All things that have happened, by the way.) I'm not going to "tell the ref", I'm going to show the player how I feel about it.
I don't think teams need designated goons though. If Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all get run by player x on the other team, you shouldn't have one guy named Mark who will take care of it. Having Mark on the team is probably what got Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all run in the first place.

When one player on a team is taking cheap shots, not only do people feel animosity towards that person, they feel it toward the entire other team.

Now if someone blatantly takes a shot at me, I'm going to protect myself, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to have one person to do all the "protecting". It actually makes most situations worse.

Trl3789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 11:50 AM
  #487
TieClark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,115
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trl3789 View Post
I don't think teams need designated goons though. If Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all get run by player x on the other team, you shouldn't have one guy named Mark who will take care of it. Having Mark on the team is probably what got Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all run in the first place.

When one player on a team is taking cheap shots, not only do people feel animosity towards that person, they feel it toward the entire other team.

Now if someone blatantly takes a shot at me, I'm going to protect myself, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to have one person to do all the "protecting". It actually makes most situations worse.
This all seems ridiculously stupid for beer league.

That said, Mark doesn't have to be running anybody. Just because Mark can deal with player "x" doesn't mean Mark has to act like player "x".

TieClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 12:09 PM
  #488
MattGTI
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Milford
Country: United States
Posts: 238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
This all seems ridiculously stupid for beer league.

That said, Mark doesn't have to be running anybody. Just because Mark can deal with player "x" doesn't mean Mark has to act like player "x".
Mark only shows up for the early games anyhow.

MattGTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 12:56 PM
  #489
Trl3789
Registered User
 
Trl3789's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
This all seems ridiculously stupid for beer league.

That said, Mark doesn't have to be running anybody. Just because Mark can deal with player "x" doesn't mean Mark has to act like player "x".
That was my point, "goons" and people who take cheap shots are pointless and just make it less enjoyable for everyone.

Trl3789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 03:31 PM
  #490
ChiTownHawks
Registered User
 
ChiTownHawks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orland Park, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trl3789 View Post
That was my point, "goons" and people who take cheap shots are pointless and just make it less enjoyable for everyone.
Agreed. My teammates and I all stick up for each other if someone gets way out of hand. We don't need someone on our team designated to do that.

ChiTownHawks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 07:30 AM
  #491
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trl3789 View Post
I don't think teams need designated goons though. If Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all get run by player x on the other team, you shouldn't have one guy named Mark who will take care of it. Having Mark on the team is probably what got Jon, Sarah, and Aaron all run in the first place.

When one player on a team is taking cheap shots, not only do people feel animosity towards that person, they feel it toward the entire other team.

Now if someone blatantly takes a shot at me, I'm going to protect myself, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to have one person to do all the "protecting". It actually makes most situations worse.
I agree that you there isn't a designated goon, but the same 3-4 end up in that position usually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
This all seems ridiculously stupid for beer league.

That said, Mark doesn't have to be running anybody. Just because Mark can deal with player "x" doesn't mean Mark has to act like player "x".
So, what would you do if a player blind side elbows you in the head? Or your team mate? Just be happy you got a power play and move on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownHawks View Post
Agreed. My teammates and I all stick up for each other if someone gets way out of hand. We don't need someone on our team designated to do that.
This.

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 07:37 AM
  #492
GoldenBearHockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,003
vCash: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryer98 View Post
I agree that you there isn't a designated goon, but the same 3-4 end up in that position usually.


So, what would you do if a player blind side elbows you in the head? Or your team mate? Just be happy you got a power play and move on?


This.
Sounds like you are promoting that they blindside them back or worse?

Let me turn the question back, what would you do if a player blind side elbows you in the head?

GoldenBearHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 10:00 AM
  #493
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBearHockey View Post
Sounds like you are promoting that they blindside them back or worse?

Let me turn the question back, what would you do if a player blind side elbows you in the head?
If it was blatant, then I absolutely promote doing something back to them.

I don't have to play "What would..." because it's happened to me a few times. I got up and went after him. Their action could have an affect on my life so I should be happy with a power play in a meaningless game? Or their 1-2 game suspension that they couldn't care less about?

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 10:44 AM
  #494
TieClark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,115
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryer98 View Post
So, what would you do if a player blind side elbows you in the head? Or your team mate? Just be happy you got a power play and move on?
It's beer league dude... Time to stop acting like its junior and were all tough guys.

TieClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 11:06 AM
  #495
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It's beer league dude... Time to stop acting like its junior and were all tough guys.
How am I the tough guy if I react to someone doing something to potentially ruin my life? What do you propose I do instead? Sue them?

My exact point is it is beer league and they have no reason to do those things. If they do, I am going to do something about it. I'm not going into a game looking for conflict.

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 11:13 AM
  #496
TieClark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,115
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryer98 View Post
How am I the tough guy if I react to someone doing something to potentially ruin my life? What do you propose I do instead? Sue them?

My exact point is it is beer league and they have no reason to do those things. If they do, I am going to do something about it. I'm not going into a game looking for conflict.
Except by "doing something about it" you're just compounding the problem. You can place the blame all you want but generally what happens is the other team sees it as an accident and them they get pissed that you're wanting to start something over an accident.

Now the entire game is chippy with people potentially getting hurt. Like I said, this isn't junior or the pros... It's beer league. Let the league handle it and if it is in fact that and them yeah sue them. Chances are it's not going to be that bad however

TieClark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 11:42 AM
  #497
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Except by "doing something about it" you're just compounding the problem. You can place the blame all you want but generally what happens is the other team sees it as an accident and them they get pissed that you're wanting to start something over an accident.

Now the entire game is chippy with people potentially getting hurt. Like I said, this isn't junior or the pros... It's beer league. Let the league handle it and if it is in fact that and them yeah sue them. Chances are it's not going to be that bad however
Oh, so the cross check to the back of my head after the whistle was an accident? The flying elbow coming from full speed to my team mate's head then standing over me taunting him was an accident? Right, I'll let them slide next time. You're commenting on things you weren't even there for. I'm not talking about an accidental check when going for a 50/50 puck here.

I've been playing and reffing adult league for about as long as you have been alive, so I know what needs to be done and when it needs to be done. I don't care to "let the league handle it" and give them a 1 game suspension which will do nothing.

I know it's beer league and I know I'm not going to stand there and watch others put people's lives at risk and not do anything about it. You may call it tough guy but I call the person (like you, it sounds like) a coward for not self policing people that need it.

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 12:31 PM
  #498
GoldenBearHockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,003
vCash: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryer98 View Post
Oh, so the cross check to the back of my head after the whistle was an accident? The flying elbow coming from full speed to my team mate's head then standing over me taunting him was an accident? Right, I'll let them slide next time. You're commenting on things you weren't even there for. I'm not talking about an accidental check when going for a 50/50 puck here.

I've been playing and reffing adult league for about as long as you have been alive, so I know what needs to be done and when it needs to be done. I don't care to "let the league handle it" and give them a 1 game suspension which will do nothing.

I know it's beer league and I know I'm not going to stand there and watch others put people's lives at risk and not do anything about it. You may call it tough guy but I call the person (like you, it sounds like) a coward for not self policing people that need it.
I get it,

So you would do something equally as bad back to them, to endanger their life, or their work, or their family??

Sounds like the smart thing to do, no, really, it does.

So the next time you get an elbow, just give them a two hander in the head, they will stop, I promise you that,

After you get out of jail, let me know how that works for you, k?

GoldenBearHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 01:32 PM
  #499
fryer98
Registered User
 
fryer98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBearHockey View Post
I get it,

So you would do something equally as bad back to them, to endanger their life, or their work, or their family??

Sounds like the smart thing to do, no, really, it does.

So the next time you get an elbow, just give them a two hander in the head, they will stop, I promise you that,

After you get out of jail, let me know how that works for you, k?
I never said I would endanger their life, did I? I said I would do something back to them. I'm not dumb enough to put myself in that position but thanks for assuming that.

I guess I could have clarified though, right?

fryer98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 01:43 PM
  #500
gqmixmaster
Registered User
 
gqmixmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,246
vCash: 50
we videotape all our games and let our opponents and the referees know after. We never use it as evidence against anyone unless something egregious happens like another player intentionally injures someone or for cases where the official is abused and the video supports that.

it seemed to cut down on the major bs that can go on, there are still guys going overboard in the corners or dudes shoving or yelling, slashing etc. but not one suspendable offense has happened in any of our games for the last 4 seasons.

gqmixmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.