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Say Bossy's health never declines

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07-14-2014, 08:13 PM
  #51
Big Phil
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Someone actually made a comparison of Jeff Carter to Mike Bossy? That's cute. I mean, Carter had a great postseason and he has that swooping stride and dangerous shot but he's never been able to finish the job nearly the way Bossy did. 9 straight years of 50 goals. 3 straight 17 goal playoffs. I mean, come on. Where's the comparison here?

Look, let's get one thing straight, Bossy scored goals at will. Honestly, who else can we say that about? And I mean in any situation. Who scored goals at will in any situation regardless? Here is my list.

Bossy
Richard
Gretzky
Mario (to an extent)
Bobby Hull
Brett Hull (to an extent)

Maybe Howe, maybe Beliveau and maybe Esposito as well. These are players who scored goals for a long time and did it in every situation. Regular season, playoffs, overtime, clutch goals, insurance goals, etc. Bossy is on a very, very short list for this. You'll notice Ovechkin isn't on this list either. Win or lose, Bossy scored goals.

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07-14-2014, 08:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You'll notice Ovechkin isn't on this list either. Win or lose, Bossy scored goals.
And why is that? He's scored in every situation. That includes the playoffs, where his GPG is phenomenal for this era. The only thing I can think of is that you're putting way too much blame on him for Caps' ineptitude at building a playoff ready team, so he doesn't have those big playoff goal statlines. But Ovechkin has been lethal in the playoffs if you have a memory that extends past a year or two. I watched in horror as he filled the net in a losing effort against the same Habs who held Crosby and Malkin to a goal each in the next round.

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07-15-2014, 07:45 AM
  #53
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Two most impressive things about Bossy:

1) Three straight 17-goal playoffs. I mean, that's just ridiculous. Only Jari Kurri in 1983, 1984, 1985 and 1987 can maybe compare, but Bossy did it three in a row. Talk about getting the job done! He scored 51 playoff goals (11 of them Game Winners) in 56 games, and won three Stanley Cups while doing it. Unbelievable.

2) As Big Phil said, the consistency. Even after the Isles stopped being a regular-season powerhouse in 1984, Bossy still scored about 60 goals a year for his last two full seasons. Very difficult for snipers' numbers not to significantly drop when the team is no longer leading in the third period every night.

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07-15-2014, 11:20 AM
  #54
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Right, that 1990 Stanley Cup and that 1994 Stanley Cup were disasters!

(Oh wait, I see you're from Vancouver.)
The point is that leadership can be, and often is, over rated just like being on a SC team Glenn Anderson anyone?

If a guy is a leader and wins a SC, it not because of his leadership being better than say Stan Smyl, but more about the actual team around him.

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07-15-2014, 04:05 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The point is that leadership can be, and often is, over rated...
Won't challenge that opinion.

However, one should consider the opinions of those in the room. His co-workers (players). Winning over the respect of peers is not as easy as winning flowery accolades from media and fans. And frankly, it's exponentially more important.

Messier has his detractors in the game, to be sure. But he earned a stellar reputation as a leader among teammates. His "final acts" in Vancouver and NYC (Pt. II), notwithstanding.

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07-15-2014, 05:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The point is that leadership can be, and often is, over rated just like being on a SC team Glenn Anderson anyone?

If a guy is a leader and wins a SC, it not because of his leadership being better than say Stan Smyl, but more about the actual team around him.
But you don't get 214 playoff points by being a passenger either right? I wouldn't call Anderson just "along for the ride" either. His game winning goals, his overtime goals, man, the guy was programmed for the big games. No accident at all he wins 6 Cups.

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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
And why is that? He's scored in every situation. That includes the playoffs, where his GPG is phenomenal for this era. The only thing I can think of is that you're putting way too much blame on him for Caps' ineptitude at building a playoff ready team, so he doesn't have those big playoff goal statlines. But Ovechkin has been lethal in the playoffs if you have a memory that extends past a year or two. I watched in horror as he filled the net in a losing effort against the same Habs who held Crosby and Malkin to a goal each in the next round.
Mostly because when you need a goal badly we've seen Ovechkin not deliver the goods. Bossy was always the guy who did this. The net was filled by the flick of his wrists before you even needed to ask. His numbers are sexy, but he hasn't always - always - produced when you needed him. The Olympics are a prime example of this. the comparison for Bossy is the Canada Cups. He thrived in both of them he played in. No, if you need a goal - and I mean NEED a goal - you knew Bossy would do it. We can't say the same thing about Ovechkin despite some of his gaudy stats.

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07-15-2014, 06:30 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The point is that leadership can be, and often is, over rated just like being on a SC team Glenn Anderson anyone?
Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

Glenn Anderson was like Rocket Richard from 1980 to 1990. He terrorized NHL goaltenders, racking up almost 500 of the most exciting regular season goals ever seen. He was also a great playmaker. He was arguably the fastest-skating forward in the NHL in the first half of the 80s at least, and could make moves at top speed. From 1980 to 1984, Anderson was probably the Oilers' 2nd best player after Gretzky, as they established their franchise.

More than all this, he was a big-game player when it counted. He scored several OT playoff goals and was larger-than-life in the '87 and '90 SC Finals. (And in '94, even though he was past his prime and near the end, he also basically won one game in the Finals for the Rangers in Vancouver.)

A little respect is due.

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07-15-2014, 08:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Sorry, I don't understand this comment.

Glenn Anderson was like Rocket Richard from 1980 to 1990. He terrorized NHL goaltenders, racking up almost 500 of the most exciting regular season goals ever seen. He was also a great playmaker. He was arguably the fastest-skating forward in the NHL in the first half of the 80s at least, and could make moves at top speed. From 1980 to 1984, Anderson was probably the Oilers' 2nd best player after Gretzky, as they established their franchise.

More than all this, he was a big-game player when it counted. He scored several OT playoff goals and was larger-than-life in the '87 and '90 SC Finals. (And in '94, even though he was past his prime and near the end, he also basically won one game in the Finals for the Rangers in Vancouver.)

A little respect is due.
Anderson had very very little to do with the Rangers SC, Trottier has 6 SC as well as Anderson but he was a focal point on his first 4 SC teams.

Anderson at best was the 5th best guy on those Oiler teams and yes Wayne was that freaking good and the real difference on those teams.

There is another thread about guys who looked better than they were, fits Anderson to a tee.

As "great" as Anderson was here are his all star voting finishes in Edmonton.

5,4,5,6,3,9 and 11

After his age 27 season he doesn't get another AS vote despite still playing on a really good Oiler team for 3 more years then with Gilmour in Toronto for a couple.

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07-15-2014, 08:58 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Anderson had very very little to do with the Rangers SC, Trottier has 6 SC as well as Anderson but he was a focal point on his first 4 SC teams.

Anderson at best was the 5th best guy on those Oiler teams and yes Wayne was that freaking good and the real difference on those teams.

There is another thread about guys who looked better than they were, fits Anderson to a tee.

As "great" as Anderson was here are his all star voting finishes in Edmonton.

5,4,5,6,3,9 and 11

After his age 27 season he doesn't get another AS vote despite still playing on a really good Oiler team for 3 more years then with Gilmour in Toronto for a couple.
Yeah, I agree with this assessment. Highly overrated player who scored some big goals and was in the right place at the right time. Lots of room for him to do his thing with so much focus on 99, 17, 11 and 7. I liken him to Bob Nystrom on the Isles. Both very talented and provided depth and key scoring, but when those dynasty's are talked about, their names usually only come up when discussing some big goals. Still takes a lot of talent to do that, but when the main cogs of the dynasty are the focal point of the opposition and most talked about that leaves a lot of room and opportunity for these types to shine. Opportunities that were only there because of the main cogs.

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07-16-2014, 12:10 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Anderson had very very little to do with the Rangers SC, Trottier has 6 SC as well as Anderson but he was a focal point on his first 4 SC teams.

Anderson at best was the 5th best guy on those Oiler teams and yes Wayne was that freaking good and the real difference on those teams.

There is another thread about guys who looked better than they were, fits Anderson to a tee.

As "great" as Anderson was here are his all star voting finishes in Edmonton.

5,4,5,6,3,9 and 11

After his age 27 season he doesn't get another AS vote despite still playing on a really good Oiler team for 3 more years then with Gilmour in Toronto for a couple.
I think the better question is, how many players out there would be able to surpass Gretzky, Messier, Coffey and Kurri on a Cup winner? Not many. Lots of great players would still slot in behind them. Anderson was put in a fine situation but he also made it great because of what he did. 93 playoff goals, let's think about that for a second. Is it possible to be a leech and get those numbers?

I think you also have to remember one thing here, the right wing position was hard to garner all-star selections. With Bossy and Kurri filling those spots up mostly.

And do we really need to go over the names of the 5th best players on a dynasty? For the Red Wings who would that be, Delvecchio? Habs maybe Moore? Leafs might be George Armstrong. Habs again perhaps Gainey or Savard. Islanders Tonelli for my money. Only Tonelli isn't in the HHOF there. Just saying, you don't get 93 goals by accident.

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07-16-2014, 12:52 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Anderson had very very little to do with the Rangers SC, Trottier has 6 SC as well as Anderson but he was a focal point on his first 4 SC teams.
I didn't say anything about Anderson on the Rangers, except that he was past his prime but did engineer one of the four wins in the Final.
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Anderson at best was the 5th best guy on those Oiler teams
Oilers goals-per-game in 1980-81 (Anderson was a rookie):
1) Gretzky: 0.69
2) Anderson: 0.52
3) Callighen: 0.45
4) Kurri: 0.43

Oilers overall scoring in 1981-82:
1) Gretzky 212
2) Anderson 105
3) Coffey 89
4) Messier 88

Oilers points-per-game in 1982-83:
1) Gretzky 2.45
2) Anderson 1.44
3) Messier 1.38
4) Kurri 1.30

After 1983, Anderson never plays on Gretzky's line again.

Oilers goals-per-game in 1983-84:
1) Gretzky 1.18
2) Kurri 0.81
3) Anderson 0.68

Oilers 1984-85: Anderson falls to 4th in goals, 5th in points

Oilers goals-per-game in 1985-86:
1) Kurri 0.87
2) Anderson 0.75
3) Gretzky 0.65

In 1986-87, Anderson falls to 5th in goals (he had something like a 10-game drought at one point), but in the playoffs, goals-per-game:
1) Kurri 0.71
2) Anderson 0.67
3) Messier 0.57

In 1987-88, Anderson is 4th/5th in Oilers' regular season and playoffs goals and scoring.

1988-89 was his rock-bottom season. He crapped out. And so did the Oil in the 1st round of playoffs.

Oilers goals-per-game in 1989-90:
1) Messier 0.57
2) Anderson 0.47
3) Kurri 0.42
In the 1990 playoffs, Anderson was tied for 3rd on the team with 10 goals.

During these 10 years with Edmonton, Anderson had the 7th-most goals in the entire NHL, and was 3rd-best on the Oilers (his GPG for ten years is higher than Messier's). In those same 10 years, he was 11th-best in total points in the whole NHL.

Meanwhile, in the playoffs, he is 3rd-best for those 10 years in total goals (behind only Gretzky and Kurri). By the way, he is also 2nd-best in even-strength goals (ahead of Gretzky and only behind Kurri).

For his entire career, Anderson is 5th-all time in playoff game-winning-goals, ahead of no-names like Jagr, Kurri, and Lafleur.


Given all of this, I'm curious as to an explanation of how you rate him the 6th-best player on the Oilers in this era?
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
and yes Wayne was that freaking good and the real difference on those teams.
Wayne was indeed that good, but if he was the "real difference" then how did the Oilers win the Stanley Cup without him in 1990? This is a key question.



Certainly, Anderson was never the same after spring 1990, but I think 10 straight seasons (one partial misfire in '88-'89) of top-notch regular season and playoff scoring proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't riding anyone's coattails to greatness.

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07-16-2014, 12:58 AM
  #62
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I think the better question is, how many players out there would be able to surpass Gretzky, Messier, Coffey and Kurri on a Cup winner?
Exactly. And as I think my post (above) proves, Anderson DID surpass Messier, Coffey, and Kurri on several occasions (for 10 years, he even scored more playoff ES goals than Gretzky). Until about 1987, there was great debate over whether Anderson or Messier was the better player.

I think what we have here is the case of some critical fans who only remember Anderson with The Rangers for a few months when he was basically washed-up.

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07-16-2014, 08:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Someone actually made a comparison of Jeff Carter to Mike Bossy? That's cute. I mean, Carter had a great postseason and he has that swooping stride and dangerous shot but he's never been able to finish the job nearly the way Bossy did. 9 straight years of 50 goals. 3 straight 17 goal playoffs. I mean, come on. Where's the comparison here?

Look, let's get one thing straight, Bossy scored goals at will. Honestly, who else can we say that about? And I mean in any situation. Who scored goals at will in any situation regardless? Here is my list.

Bossy
Richard
Gretzky
Mario (to an extent)
Bobby Hull
Brett Hull (to an extent)

Maybe Howe, maybe Beliveau and maybe Esposito as well. These are players who scored goals for a long time and did it in every situation. Regular season, playoffs, overtime, clutch goals, insurance goals, etc. Bossy is on a very, very short list for this. You'll notice Ovechkin isn't on this list either. Win or lose, Bossy scored goals.
Some context to the Carter comment, it wasn't a direct comparison, it was a few years ago, after the trade from Philly and before his Columbus days in the context of "how do you move a goal scorer like Carter, who's Bossy-like" (it was one of the TSN hosts, possibly Jeff Marek who I don't think meant it the way it was interpreted - but Denis Potvin jumped in and vehemently defended Bossy saying something like "Carter ALMOST made Team Canada in the last Olympics" (paraphrasing), but Bossy's accomplishments dwarfed Carter in every way. To Trottier's point (the poster, not the player), Bossy is extremely respected by his teammates as a COMPETITOR, not solely as a goal scorer. That level of respect, especially from a team with that amount of NHL success and playoff success, against one of the best teams ever (the 83 Oilers) is not to be taken lightly.

I also believe not all Stanley Cups are created equally, not that they are easier/harder to win, but being able to deliver over 19 straight playoff series goes a bit beyond a "generic" (if that's the right word) playoff performance. And those 17 goals in three straight playoffs is a pretty special accomplishment.

Not that speaks to how his play might have "declined" but to address the comparison to Carter and respect by teammates as a competitor, not a selfish goal scorer.

And to your Ovy point below.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But you don't get 214 playoff points by being a passenger either right? I wouldn't call Anderson just "along for the ride" either. His game winning goals, his overtime goals, man, the guy was programmed for the big games. No accident at all he wins 6 Cups.

Mostly because when you need a goal badly we've seen Ovechkin not deliver the goods. Bossy was always the guy who did this. The net was filled by the flick of his wrists before you even needed to ask. His numbers are sexy, but he hasn't always - always - produced when you needed him. The Olympics are a prime example of this. the comparison for Bossy is the Canada Cups. He thrived in both of them he played in. No, if you need a goal - and I mean NEED a goal - you knew Bossy would do it. We can't say the same thing about Ovechkin despite some of his gaudy stats.
......I wonder how many of Ovy's teammates have ever mentioned, publicly, Ovechkin's leadership and willingness to win.

Ovechkin's one of the best goal scorers I've seen since Brett Hull. His physical skills (size, shot accuracy/release) are incredible but his lack of "big game play", despite the stats, is very telling and is a defining aspect of his career, to date. (Yes, it can change).

But looking at even multiple or consecutive great playoff performances, those are extremely rare. Even among the current greats like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Doughty, Kopitar. What some of these Islanders, Oilers, Habs accomplished (Glenn Anderson included), over those years is pretty special.

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07-16-2014, 08:29 PM
  #64
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But you don't get 214 playoff points by being a passenger either right? I wouldn't call Anderson just "along for the ride" either. His game winning goals, his overtime goals, man, the guy was programmed for the big games. No accident at all he wins 6 Cups.
watching Anderson with the Leafs in 92-93, I really appreciated how good of a player he was, and he definitely had an extra gear for the playoffs. Some of those great hockey players, from those great teams, truly knew how to pace themselves over 80 games and then "turn it on" and Anderson exemplified that at forward as much as Billy Smith did in goal (Smitty was very vocal about not caring about the regular season)

With the Rangers, Anderson was a shell of his former self, just like Gretzky was, even in his 90point season. Gretzky sucked and got 90 points. Yes.

Lindros in Toronto (few will remember) was also pretty washed up and many in this market (Toronto) seem to forget how dominant he was in his short prime.

Back on point, Anderson doesn't get the credit he deserves because of how incredible Gretzky was, and his other bigger guns like Messier, Coffey, Kurri.

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07-16-2014, 09:36 PM
  #65
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I'm not really much of an Anderson fan in general but I will say that I have never, ever, seen a winger better at cutting in to the net than him.

I remember this one time Harry Neale remarking about it.. something along the lines of it seemed like he could start to do it from the icing line and still get to the front of the net for a chance.

He was money in the playoffs and being the 5th best player or whatever on a team as stacked as the Oilers is nothing to be ashamed of hahah.. like Fedorov he had the luxury of being able to coast it a bit in the regular season but turned it on come spring.

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