HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Sakic/Forsberg vs Crosby/Malkin

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-25-2014, 12:37 PM
  #1
FedorBure
Registered User
 
FedorBure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 65
vCash: 500
Sakic/Forsberg vs Crosby/Malkin

Hello,

In their primes, not injured, which duo would you rather have on your team? Why?

FedorBure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 12:43 PM
  #2
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,912
vCash: 500
I'll probably lean in with Crosby/Malkin.

I feel that at their best Crosby is the most consistent player. In fact, the only thing ever stopping Crosby from being the best/top-3 player in the world are injuries. Malkin is maybe the weakest link here, but he is not a big downgrade from Forsberg or Sakic.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 12:47 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,035
vCash: 500
I think it depends on which version of Malkin we are getting

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 12:55 PM
  #4
Thenameless
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 324
vCash: 500
I like both pairs.

In their primes, not injured, I'd rather have Crosby/Malkin.

Put it this way. Neither pair can win a Hart if a healthy Lemieux is around. But if all four played at the same time without a generational talent like Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux, then Crosby would get the lion's share of Hart trophies.

Something I do like about the Sakic/Forsberg pair though, is that they are both self-motivated players. They can both carry a team. And both always give their best. It seems to me that Malkin tries WAY harder to carry the team when Crosby's not around, and I don't like that. On the rare occasion that Malkin gives it his all when Crosby's healthy, this pair should be enough to win you a Stanley Cup.

Thenameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 01:23 PM
  #5
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,362
vCash: 500
Absolute peak? Crosby/Malkin

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 04:20 PM
  #6
FinProspects
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 687
vCash: 500
If we take the best goal and assist totals for each player, dont know if that makes any sense (Bernie Nicholls would beat all of them..):
Regular season:
Crosby 51+84=135
Malkin 50+78=128
Sakic 51+69=120
Forsberg 30+86=116

Playoffs:
Crosby 15+21=36
Malkin 14+22=36
Sakic 18+17=35
Forsberg 10+18=28

At this point of their careers IŽd rank them:
1a. Crosby
1b. Sakic
3. Forsberg
4. Malkin

So its very, very close. Reg season, IŽll take Crosby/Malkin. Playoffs, give me Sakic Foppa.

All things considered, IŽll give a tiny edge to Crosby/Malkin.

FinProspects is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 04:28 PM
  #7
maketrades
Registered User
 
maketrades's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Country: Canada
Posts: 558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinProspects View Post
If we take the best goal and assist totals for each player, dont know if that makes any sense (Bernie Nicholls would beat all of them..):
Regular season:
Crosby 51+84=135
Malkin 50+78=128

Sakic 51+69=120
Forsberg 30+86=116

Playoffs:
Crosby 15+21=36
Malkin 14+22=36
Sakic 18+17=35
Forsberg 10+18=28

At this point of their careers IŽd rank them:
1a. Crosby
1b. Sakic
3. Forsberg
4. Malkin

So its very, very close. Reg season, IŽll take Crosby/Malkin. Playoffs, give me Sakic Foppa.

All things considered, IŽll give a tiny edge to Crosby/Malkin.
What?

maketrades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 05:12 PM
  #8
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by maketrades View Post
What?
It's best assist and goal total from any season. Crosby is counted from his assist in sophomore season and goals from his rocket years. Which seems kind of an odd way to compare players.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 05:23 PM
  #9
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinProspects View Post
If we take the best goal and assist totals for each player

Crosby 51+84=135
Crosby's Rocket Richard season came at the sacrifice of his playmaking. Since 2007, the only season where Crosby has not been top-3 in assists-per-game is 2010, the 51 goal season, where he finished 13th in APG. Combining the best of two seasons where he focused on different aspects of his game is a little silly. Even if he had maintained his 2011 pace, he would not have been a 135 point scorer.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 05:44 PM
  #10
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,017
vCash: 500
who's healthy?

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 05:51 PM
  #11
The Kingslayer
Registered User
 
The Kingslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Yuck horse piss!
Country: Cambodia
Posts: 23,501
vCash: 966
What era of hockey are we talking here?

The Kingslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 05:57 PM
  #12
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kingslayer View Post
What era of hockey are we talking here?
Why does it matter?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-25-2014, 07:19 PM
  #13
Ageless
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 950
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorBure View Post
Hello,

In their primes, not injured, which duo would you rather have on your team? Why?
Crosby/Malkin

4 Lindsay's
4 Art rosses
3 harts
6 first team all star
1 richard

Ageless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 09:43 AM
  #14
Horvath Broncos
Registered User
 
Horvath Broncos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,399
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Crosby/Malkin

4 Lindsay's
4 Art rosses
3 harts
6 first team all star
1 richard
i would give the edge to Crosby/Malkin atleast in the regular season, but trophy counting is not a great way to justify this cause Malkin and Crosby competed with Ovy/Thornton/Sedins/Stamkos where as Sakic and Foppa competed with Mario/Gretzky/prime-Jagr/Lindros/Bure.

i would like the give edge on the playoffs to Sakic/Foppa but then again playing in the pre-cap Colorado made it easier to succeed in the post season.

Horvath Broncos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 11:14 AM
  #15
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbylsmalkin View Post
i would like the give edge on the playoffs to Sakic/Foppa but then again playing in the pre-cap Colorado made it easier to succeed in the post season.
I understand the theory behind this, but playing in the Western Conference in the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s meant playing other teams with top-end defensive talent: Chicago (Chelios, Belfour), Detroit (Lidstrom, multiple Selke winners, and later Chelios), Dallas (Carbonneau, Lehtinen, later Belfour), Edmonton (Joseph), St. Louis (MacInnis, Pronger). It was a bigger minefield than the current-day Eastern Conference.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 12:58 PM
  #16
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I understand the theory behind this, but playing in the Western Conference in the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s meant playing other teams with top-end defensive talent: Chicago (Chelios, Belfour), Detroit (Lidstrom, multiple Selke winners, and later Chelios), Dallas (Carbonneau, Lehtinen, later Belfour), Edmonton (Joseph), St. Louis (MacInnis, Pronger). It was a bigger minefield than the current-day Eastern Conference.
Very good points here, as per usual , but it's difficult how easy or hard the compete levels are between decades and teams.

I would take the pens duo at their peaks but Malkin is the wild card as the other 3 guys consistently brought their A games while Malkin can be hit and miss at times.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 03:41 PM
  #17
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I would take the pens duo at their peaks but Malkin is the wild card as the other 3 guys consistently brought their A games while Malkin can be hit and miss at times.
I don't really see it that way. Malkin has struggled with injuries, just as each of the others did at times. When the chips are down, Malkin seems at least as consistent as Crosby.

OP said not injured, and when Forsberg and Sakic were healthy, I would be more confident that they would show up and bring their A games... or at least their B games... when the games matter most, than I would with Malkin and Crosby. I also think Forsberg/Sakic have the defensive edge.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 04:01 PM
  #18
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,017
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I understand the theory behind this, but playing in the Western Conference in the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s meant playing other teams with top-end defensive talent: Chicago (Chelios, Belfour), Detroit (Lidstrom, multiple Selke winners, and later Chelios), Dallas (Carbonneau, Lehtinen, later Belfour), Edmonton (Joseph), St. Louis (MacInnis, Pronger). It was a bigger minefield than the current-day Eastern Conference.
thinking about the ridiculous gap between the west and eastern conference in the NBA, and how the best player in the game (lebron obviously) plays in the east-- with speculation that playing in the easier east was an intentional choice for him, so he has a clear shot at the finals every year-- it's interesting to wonder what conclusions or hypotheses we can make about crosby and malkin and their careers in the weaker east.

i think by most objective measures, those are the two most talented, and "best," players in the world when healthy. but as generational/quasi-generational players, they also face significantly less travel, less physically demanding competitions, etc. than your getzlafs and kopitars slugging it out in the west (and to a lesser degree, toews, whose travel isn't that bad but whose competition in the playoffs included head-to-head matchups against MVPs like thornton and sedin, and two-way beasts like kopitar and zetterberg). these advantages have to be taken into account when talking about crosby and malkin's relative playoff shortcomings, right? in the east, it's pretty smooth sailing until you hit boston/bergeron, and the pens haven't even always gotten that far.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 05:45 PM
  #19
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,087
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I don't really see it that way. Malkin has struggled with injuries, just as each of the others did at times. When the chips are down, Malkin seems at least as consistent as Crosby.

OP said not injured, and when Forsberg and Sakic were healthy, I would be more confident that they would show up and bring their A games... or at least their B games... when the games matter most, than I would with Malkin and Crosby. I also think Forsberg/Sakic have the defensive edge.
This is how I feel as well. I would just feel safer with Forsberg and Sakic in the playoffs than I would with Crosby and Malkin. It's a tough choice, but I think I would rather have Forsberg and Sakic on my team when the chips are down than Crosby and Malkin.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 06:32 PM
  #20
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,193
vCash: 500
Crosby and Malkin. Malkin is the least consistent of the 4, but when he's on he's on.

Beau Knows is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 11:32 PM
  #21
pensfan7477
Danny Tanner
 
pensfan7477's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
thinking about the ridiculous gap between the west and eastern conference in the NBA, and how the best player in the game (lebron obviously) plays in the east-- with speculation that playing in the easier east was an intentional choice for him, so he has a clear shot at the finals every year-- it's interesting to wonder what conclusions or hypotheses we can make about crosby and malkin and their careers in the weaker east.

i think by most objective measures, those are the two most talented, and "best," players in the world when healthy. but as generational/quasi-generational players, they also face significantly less travel, less physically demanding competitions, etc. than your getzlafs and kopitars slugging it out in the west (and to a lesser degree, toews, whose travel isn't that bad but whose competition in the playoffs included head-to-head matchups against MVPs like thornton and sedin, and two-way beasts like kopitar and zetterberg). these advantages have to be taken into account when talking about crosby and malkin's relative playoff shortcomings, right? in the east, it's pretty smooth sailing until you hit boston/bergeron, and the pens haven't even always gotten that far.
Oh please. The West is not significantly superior to the East. Crosby has the same career PPG against the West as the East. The inferiority complex is worrisome.

pensfan7477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2014, 11:54 PM
  #22
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,538
vCash: 500
With Crosby and Malkin we've rarely seen them both be great at the same time. That year was 2009. Malkin wins the Art Ross with 113 points and Crosby has 103. They win the Cup with 36 and 31 playoff points respectably. Other than that, either one of them has been injured, or Malkin has been inconsistent or one of them has just been bad in the playoffs. Or both of them. Imagine if both of these guys were "on" at the same time?

I guess in a way Sakic and Forsberg have that as well. In the postseason one of them was usually more noticeable than the other. But to be honest they carried the Avs better than Crosby and Malkin carried the Pens. Maybe they lose to Dallas a couple times in the conference final, but they don't lose to the Rangers, Canadiens, Flyers in poor fashion. I guess 1998 is the only time that they lost to a team that made you think "Woah, that shouldn't happen."

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 12:56 AM
  #23
Tam O Shanter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 246
vCash: 500
to me, at their best, aside from one playoff run (which I have seen Krejci and Franzen and Barry Pederson, etc do) Malkin is the weakest link. Depending on what I'm looking at and my mood, Crosby, Forsberg and Sakic could interchange for top spot. I feel Malkin is a very small, yet clear step inferior. Also, I never saw Forsberg or Sakic 'gotten to' in the way that I have seen Sid.

I just reread my post and it looks too one-sided. To be clear - I pick Forsberg and Sakic, but its a very good question, and I see the Sid/Malkin argument as very valid..... a virtual coinflip. Throw in Yzerman and Fedorov, and, in 4th place, but still with an argument, I'd put Zetts and Datsyuk at their best in the convo. Those two could shut down anyone when healthy, while producing.

Tam O Shanter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 03:26 AM
  #24
Offtheboard412
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam O Shanter View Post
to me, at their best, aside from one playoff run (which I have seen Krejci and Franzen and Barry Pederson, etc do) Malkin is the weakest link. Depending on what I'm looking at and my mood, Crosby, Forsberg and Sakic could interchange for top spot. I feel Malkin is a very small, yet clear step inferior. Also, I never saw Forsberg or Sakic 'gotten to' in the way that I have seen Sid.

I just reread my post and it looks too one-sided. To be clear - I pick Forsberg and Sakic, but its a very good question, and I see the Sid/Malkin argument as very valid..... a virtual coinflip. Throw in Yzerman and Fedorov, and, in 4th place, but still with an argument, I'd put Zetts and Datsyuk at their best in the convo. Those two could shut down anyone when healthy, while producing.
I feel like Malkin is every bit as good at his best as the other 3. Lead the league in points from game 1 of the regular season all the way through to the end of the playoffs in the cup year while also leading the league in takeaways. Then in 2012 He ran away with the Art Ross despite missing 8 games.

It's pretty much about as even as it gets at this point in time. If the pens duo continues to take turns leading the league in scoring for the next 2-3 years and can manage to win a cup I think it would be hard to argue against them though.

Offtheboard412 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 03:47 AM
  #25
SillyRabbit
Trix Are For Kids
 
SillyRabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I understand the theory behind this, but playing in the Western Conference in the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s meant playing other teams with top-end defensive talent: Chicago (Chelios, Belfour), Detroit (Lidstrom, multiple Selke winners, and later Chelios), Dallas (Carbonneau, Lehtinen, later Belfour), Edmonton (Joseph), St. Louis (MacInnis, Pronger). It was a bigger minefield than the current-day Eastern Conference.
This.

Sakic and Forsberg are being underrated here. They had much tougher competition.

Crosby and Malkin have never been dominant at the same time. When Crosby has been injured, Malkin has been dominant. When Malkin has been injured, Crosby has been dominant.

The same thing happened with Sakic and Forsberg. Both won Hart trophies when the other didn't play a full season.

Playoff wise, Sakic has a Smythe and so does Malkin. Forsberg led the playoffs in scoring twice, despite not making it to the finals both those years.

Personally I think if you swap the pairs and put Crosby and Malkin on the late 90's Avs and put Sakic and Forsberg into this generation, Sakic and Forsberg would have more success than Crosby and Malkin have had, while Crosby and Malkin likely don't improve on what Sakic and Forsberg did in Colorado.


Last edited by SillyRabbit: 07-28-2014 at 03:53 AM.
SillyRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.