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Does Gretzky or Lemieux Benefit More if the Other Never Existed?

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Old
07-26-2014, 04:28 AM
  #101
TAnnala
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Oh, I get it now.

You have a point.

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07-26-2014, 10:01 AM
  #102
LeBlondeDemon10
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If there is no Gretzky, do people actually rank Lemieux ahead of Howe and Orr? I can't see any decent rationalization for it as 9 and 4 were more complete players.

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07-26-2014, 10:07 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
If there is no Gretzky, do people actually rank Lemieux ahead of Howe and Orr? I can't see any decent rationalization for it as 9 and 4 were more complete players.
I think more would. Without Gretzky, Lemieux has the single season records.

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07-26-2014, 10:12 AM
  #104
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I think more would. Without Gretzky, Lemieux has the single season records.
Yeah, looking at it that way, it does change one's perspective.

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07-26-2014, 04:13 PM
  #105
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If no Gretzky Lemieux is the undisputed best player of all time or at least forward of all time

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07-26-2014, 04:15 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
If no Gretzky Lemieux is the undisputed best player of all time or at least forward of all time
Not true. Even with Gretzky, there are some who would take Gordie Howe over him. With no Gretzky, I would imagine a lively Lemieux vs Howe debate for #1 forward of all-time.

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07-26-2014, 04:43 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Not true. Even with Gretzky, there are some who would take Gordie Howe over him. With no Gretzky, I would imagine a lively Lemieux vs Howe debate for #1 forward of all-time.
Lemieux at his peak is just as good as Gretzky though

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07-26-2014, 05:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Lemieux at his peak is just as good as Gretzky though
No he's not.

Gretzky scored 200 + Pts four times in his carer, and had career highs of 92 and 87 goals.

Lemieux at his absolute best just got to Gretzky's level but barely when he scored 85 goals and had 199 Pts, coincidentally, Brett Hull had a better goals scoring season when he scored 86 goals.

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07-26-2014, 06:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
No he's not.

Gretzky scored 200 + Pts four times in his carer, and had career highs of 92 and 87 goals.

Lemieux at his absolute best just got to Gretzky's level but barely when he scored 85 goals and had 199 Pts, coincidentally, Brett Hull had a better goals scoring season when he scored 86 goals.
Gretzkys best was 215 in 80 games
Lemieuxs was 199 in 76 which is 209 points. So a peak Lemieux notice how I said peak was at the same level. Lemieux 93 was on pace for 213 as well...

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07-26-2014, 07:45 PM
  #110
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I would have to say Lemieux would benefit more, based simply on the fact that Gretzky is basically the unanimous GOAT as is, so he has nowhere to go.

I know, his records would be even more impressive and he would have a few more trophies but overall the way he is looked upon by everyone is still basically the same.

Lemieux on the other hand, would be considered far and away the best offensive player to ever play the game, reaching levels that nobody thought were even imaginable. Even though he doesn't end up with the most points but he still ends up with the single season record, single post season record, and has the most scoring titles despite his health.

On top of this his illness/comeback would have been that much more legendary. It would be like "this guy just had cancer and still put up more points than anyone ever has in a season".

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07-26-2014, 07:55 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Plastic Joseph View Post
Lemieux on the other hand, would be considered far and away the best offensive player to ever play the game, reaching levels that nobody thought were even imaginable.
That would only be the case if both Gretzky and Gordie Howe never existed.

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07-26-2014, 08:02 PM
  #112
Plastic Joseph
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
That would only be the case if both Gretzky and Gordie Howe never existed.
Howe never had anything near 199 points.

Like I said, even though he didn't end up scoring more points overall I think his single seasons and 7 scoring titles despite injuries would put him #1.

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07-26-2014, 08:08 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Joseph View Post
Howe never had anything near 199 points.

Like I said, even though he didn't end up scoring more points overall I think his single seasons and 7 scoring titles despite injuries would put him #1.
Howe also played in a different era and won 4 of his 6 Art Rosses by very large margins

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07-26-2014, 08:14 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Joseph View Post
Howe never had anything near 199 points.
Nobody in the O6 era scored more than 100 points while tons of players did in the 1980s. Scoring relative to peers is what matters.

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07-26-2014, 08:15 PM
  #115
Plastic Joseph
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Howe also played in a different era and won 4 of his 6 Art Rosses by very large margins
Different eras no doubt, and yes although Howe did outpace his peers by a larger margin of points in many of his Art Ross years, it is the fact that Mario was even able to win so many despite missing so much time.

It would be a debate for sure, but 199 points would be out of this world insane, 44 points better than anyone ever. His span from 87-97 would easily be the most dominant 10 years for any player, but Howe would have longevity on his side.

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07-26-2014, 08:16 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Nobody in the O6 era scored more than 100 points while tons of players did in the 1980s. Scoring relative to peers is what matters.
Yes and relative to anyone ever (including his peers) he would have 44 more.

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07-26-2014, 08:17 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Joseph View Post
Howe never had anything near 199 points.

Like I said, even though he didn't end up scoring more points overall I think his single seasons and 7 scoring titles despite injuries would put him #1.
I though Mario only won 6 art rosses, but I could be mistaken.

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07-26-2014, 08:30 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Joseph View Post
Yes and relative to anyone ever (including his peers) he would have 44 more.
More in depth:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
I want to address the issue of whether Lemieux or Howe was more dominant in their primes. I've compared how many points they scored, relative to the rest of the league, during each of their six Art Ross victories. Note that this is the most favourable possible comparison for Lemieux; if I expanded this and included more years, Howe's significant edge in longevity would become apparent.

Here's how Lemieux did in his six best years, relative to the league:

Name GP G A Pts
Mario Lemieux 423 387 554 941 1.00
Wayne Gretzky 423 189 513 702 1.34
Steve Yzerman 468 276 401 677 1.39
Mark Messier 448 213 373 586 1.61
Luc Robitaille 468 253 305 558 1.69
Adam Oates 446 142 405 547 1.72
Doug Gilmour 467 174 365 539 1.75
Pierre Turgeon 474 210 328 538 1.75
Brett Hull 443 282 241 523 1.80
Pat LaFontaine 384 233 287 520 1.81

During his best six years, Lemieux outscored the nearest competitor by 34%. Of course, that's not exactly a fair comparison. Gretzky is the greatest scorer ever. Omitting Gretzky, we see that Lemieux outscored the next-best player, Yzerman, by 39%. After that, there's a big drop. Lemieux outscored the rest of the players on this list by 61% to 81%. All of them except Turgeon are HOFers. So, Lemieux fares extremely well. Let's see how Howe does.

Name GP G A Pts
Gordie Howe 420 254 269 528 1.00
Ted Lindsay 347 142 204 346 1.53
Maurice Richard 316 167 133 300 1.76
Red Kelly 410 98 191 289 1.83
Bernie Geoffrion 296 131 111 242 2.18
Alex Delvecchio 323 78 152 230 2.30
Sid Smith 350 116 110 226 2.34
Bert Olmstead 326 72 149 221 2.39
Doug Harvey 413 33 185 218 2.42

I think this should permanently end any doubts about whether Howe was really dominant in his prime. He didn't just outscore the rest of the league, he obliterated them. Howe finished an incredible 53% ahead of the next-best player (this is by a higher amount than Lemieux's margin of victory over Yzerman). The next best player was Howe's linemate, Ted Lindsay. The fact that Howe was able to outscore his full-time linemate, who's one of the top 20 forwards of all time, is a testament to his dominance.

Howe's dominance doesn't end there. Every player on this list is a HOFer. He outscored them by 76% to 142%. Those numbers are matched in history only by Gretzky. When a player can DOUBLE what every other player in the league has scored (except for Lindsay, Richard and Kelly!) over a six year span, they've achieved a historic accomplishment that will never again be achieved.

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07-26-2014, 09:30 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
More in depth:
Lemieux and Gretzky are the only players to score 160 or more points and Lemieux once scored 160 in 60 games. Howe never approached 66 and 99 level.

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07-26-2014, 10:43 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Gretzkys best was 215 in 80 games
Lemieuxs was 199 in 76 which is 209 points. So a peak Lemieux notice how I said peak was at the same level. Lemieux 93 was on pace for 213 as well...
Gretzky's best was NOT 215 in 80 games, if we use your standard (i.e., factoring missed games in partial seasons).

Gretzky's best was 1983-84, when he scored 205 points in 74 games. In 80 games, he was therefore on pace for 222 points.

Also, can one season be a "peak"? Gretzky put up a 200+ points-per-year average for 6 or 7 consecutive seasons (while winning 4 Stanley Cups). Lemieux did this only twice, and never for more than one season at a time.

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07-26-2014, 10:44 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Lemieux and Gretzky are the only players to score 160 or more points and Lemieux once scored 160 in 60 games. Howe never approached 66 and 99 level.
It's like you didn't read anything that followed in the post as you were quoting it

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07-26-2014, 10:45 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Lemieux and Gretzky are the only players to score 160 or more points and Lemieux once scored 160 in 60 games. Howe never approached 66 and 99 level.
Frankly, this comment seems uniformed.

Did you see the quote, above, regarding Howe's level of dominance over his (Hall of Fame) peers? Are you aware that Howe's era was one of less games and far less scoring? After considering these points, your opinion will be more valid.

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07-26-2014, 11:18 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Gretzkys best was 215 in 80 games
Lemieuxs was 199 in 76 which is 209 points. So a peak Lemieux notice how I said peak was at the same level. Lemieux 93 was on pace for 213 as well...
If you want to talk about "on pace" seasons, why are you not talking about Gretzky's 1984 season when he was on pace for 240 points (over 80 games) before he was injured (after 51 games)? And if you want to compare apples to apples, he scored 175 points over 60 games that season -- on pace for 233 points. Not really that close anymore...

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07-27-2014, 10:45 PM
  #124
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Lemieux benefits more I think.

I suppose Gretzky benefits to an extent though. Either way, Mario or no Mario Gretzky eventually declined a bit to the point where he wasn't winning scoring titles by 70 points anymore, even without Mario. Not like you can do this forever of course, but by 1989 Yzerman had 155 points to Gretzky's 168. In 1990 Gretzky had 142, Messier 129, Yzerman 127. In 1991 Gretzky had 163 to Hull's 131. Still a year where he dominates the league, and probably the last we saw of Gretzky do this, but there is still less separation from the rest of the league in 1991 as there was in 1984. 1992 Gretzky wins another Art Ross without Lemieux. Because the only ones who had more points than Gretzky's 121 were Kevin Stevens and Lemieux. And we all know there is no way Stevens does this without Mario. But the gap was closing on Gretzky more so by then. Hull had 109 points that year, which is closer.

So Gretzky gets another Art Ross, and actually one in 1988 as well, so I suppose he may be viewed even higher than he is now.

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07-27-2014, 10:47 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
No he's not.

Gretzky scored 200 + Pts four times in his carer, and had career highs of 92 and 87 goals.

Lemieux at his absolute best just got to Gretzky's level but barely when he scored 85 goals and had 199 Pts, coincidentally, Brett Hull had a better goals scoring season when he scored 86 goals.
Gretzky's prime was in the 80's.

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