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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-27-2014, 12:02 PM
  #476
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by kmad View Post
I'm done my top 80 but I'm going to spend the next week or so reading these discussions and tweaking it when someone makes a good point.

I don't have Bun Cook very high on my list.
I agree with MXD, Bun Cook is very Glenn Anderson like without the playoff resume.

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07-27-2014, 12:07 PM
  #477
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I agree with MXD, Bun Cook is very Glenn Anderson like without the playoff resume.
Bun Cook's regular season offense is a small but clear step up from Glenn Anderson's though, and Bun did bring a solid two-way game. I think they are pretty close to each other - both in the mix of guys who wouldn't look out of place either on or off the list

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07-27-2014, 01:41 PM
  #478
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Bun Cook's regular season offense is a small but clear step up from Glenn Anderson's though, and Bun did bring a solid two-way game. I think they are pretty close to each other - both in the mix of guys who wouldn't look out of place either on or off the list
Cook had a lot more help though, didn't he? He was by far the third best member of his line, Anderson usually second best by far.

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07-27-2014, 02:01 PM
  #479
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Cook had a lot more help though, didn't he? He was by far the third best member of his line, Anderson usually second best by far.
In a post-expansion world, you aren't going to see lines with 3 HHOFers very often anymore.

I can't see Bun Cook getting more help than the 4th best forward on the 80s Edmonton Oilers. Even if Anderson "only" played with Messier at even strength, he still got his share of PP time, right?

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07-27-2014, 02:26 PM
  #480
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Oh good, I love when you all do this. So much great discussion. I just always feel much too young to be able to comment

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07-27-2014, 02:46 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Not specifically no. Would just like to see a little more discussion on them.

I have Bentley, Jackson, Hextall, Schriner and Drillon all fairly high on my list, inside top 40. All seem to be locks from what I can see.

Howe and Patrick comfortably in the 40-50 range. Bun Cook looks like a nice fit somewhere in the bottom 10-15 spots.

But Dumart, Bauer and especially Ace Bailey I am having a tough time nailing down. Bailey had a short career, but a few seasons at a high level. Dumart had a solid career, Bauer a shorter one, but best seasons came between 40 and 47. How much attributed to weaker WWII era?
I really don't understand on why Patrick should be ranked that high. He essentially had 3 really good seasons and the rest was almost average. He's having a hard time making My top 60.

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07-27-2014, 02:47 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Not specifically no. Would just like to see a little more discussion on them.

I have Bentley, Jackson, Hextall, Schriner and Drillon all fairly high on my list, inside top 40. All seem to be locks from what I can see.

Howe and Patrick comfortably in the 40-50 range. Bun Cook looks like a nice fit somewhere in the bottom 10-15 spots.

But Dumart, Bauer and especially Ace Bailey I am having a tough time nailing down. Bailey had a short career, but a few seasons at a high level. Dumart had a solid career, Bauer a shorter one, but best seasons came between 40 and 47. How much attributed to weaker WWII era?
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bun Cook's regular season offense is a small but clear step up from Glenn Anderson's though, and Bun did bring a solid two-way game. I think they are pretty close to each other - both in the mix of guys who wouldn't look out of place either on or off the list
Cook isn't in My top 60. Anderson isn't either.

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07-27-2014, 03:03 PM
  #483
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This is some discussion guys, thanks.

I found last night while re-arranging my list (and effectively re-doing the entire bottom 40) that the hardest spot to pick was #80. I had a list of a dozen guys that I had a hard time justifying 1 over the others.

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07-27-2014, 03:09 PM
  #484
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I really don't understand on why Patrick should be ranked that high. He essentially had 3 really good seasons and the rest was almost average. He's having a hard time making My top 60.
With some tinkering last night I ended up with him closer to Cecil Dillon than Syd Howe. Now more in the 50-60 range.

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07-27-2014, 03:16 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
With some tinkering last night I ended up with him closer to Cecil Dillon than Syd Howe. Now more in the 50-60 range.
Well...
If the order goes Howe, Dillon and Patrick, that really makes sense.

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07-27-2014, 03:52 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well...
If the order goes Howe, Dillon and Patrick, that really makes sense.
They're very close, but I don't see why Dillon has to be ahead of Patrick.

VsX Comparison:
Patrick - 81.2/80.0
Dillon - 78.4

Hart finishes:
Patrick - 1 3rd place
Dillon - none

Top 5 Goals:
Patrick - 2 (1st, 5th)
Dillon - 2 (2nd, 4th)

Top 5 Points:
Patrick - 3 (2nd, 2nd, 4th)
Dillon - 2 (4th, 5th)

Career GP-G-A-P:
Patrick - 455-145-190-335
Dillon - 453-167-131-298

All-Star Selections:
Patrick - 1 1st team, 1 2nd team
Dillon - 1 1st team, 2 2nd team


They seem close enough that either could be a few spots ahead of the other.

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07-27-2014, 03:57 PM
  #487
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Holik's tough. His domestic record makes him look like he should be a lock for the list, but he received no international accolades (though his international stats are pretty good). He's on my list because I think he's worth talking about in Round 2.
Seems like a reverse case of the Nedomanský mystery. Vaclav Nedomanský: Impressive international resume, disappointing Golden Stick record. Jiří Holík: the other way round. His best World Championship record we're aware of: third among LWs (behind Kharlamov and Yakushev) in 1972 All-Star voting. (We don't have voting data for 1973, 1975 and 1976 though).

Food for thought: In two of the three seasons Nedomanský made the World Championship All-Star Team he still ended up behind Holík in Golden Stick voting.

1969: Holík 4th, Nedomanský 6th. Difference in domestic scoring is negligible (29+18=47 for Holík, 28+20=48 for Nedomanský) and Nedomanský made the bigger impression on international observers at the Worlds.

1974: Holík 2nd, Nedomanský 5th. Nedomanský was far and away the best scorer in the Czechoslovak league that season and besides being a World Championship All-Star he was also honoured as best forward by the IIHF directorate.

Now Holík is renowned as a two-way player while Nedomanský has confirmed he didn't do a lot of back-checking in his Czechoslovak days. Is it possible that over the course of a two-week tournament involving some opponents who are not exactly world-beaters Holik's defensive work didn't get the attention it deserved? While Nedomansky's defensive shortcomings were covered by more responsible line-mates? Guess what: no other than Jiří Holík himself was LW on Nedomansky's line for parts of the 1969 World Championship and for the entire 1974 Worlds. Exactly the two tournaments mentioned above for prompting the question why the Czechoslovaks ranked Holík ahead of Nedomanský when the latter was the one to receive international accolade.

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07-27-2014, 04:11 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Seems like a reverse case of the Nedomanský mystery. Vaclav Nedomanský: Impressive international resume, disappointing Golden Stick record. Jiří Holík: the other way round. His best World Championship record we're aware of: third among LWs (behind Kharlamov and Yakushev) in 1972 All-Star voting. (We don't have voting data for 1973, 1975 and 1976 though).

Food for thought: In two of the three seasons Nedomanský made the World Championship All-Star Team he still ended up behind Holík in Golden Stick voting.

1969: Holík 4th, Nedomanský 6th. Difference in domestic scoring is negligible (29+18=47 for Holík, 28+20=48 for Nedomanský) and Nedomanský made the bigger impression on international observers at the Worlds.

1974: Holík 2nd, Nedomanský 5th. Nedomanský was far and away the best scorer in the Czechoslovak league that season and besides being a World Championship All-Star he was also honoured as best forward by the IIHF directorate.

Now Holík is renowned as a two-way player while Nedomanský has confirmed he didn't do a lot of back-checking in his Czechoslovak days. Is it possible that over the course of a two-week tournament involving some opponents who are not exactly world-beaters Holik's defensive work didn't get the attention it deserved? While Nedomansky's defensive shortcomings were covered by more responsible line-mates? Guess what: no other than Jiří Holík himself was LW on Nedomansky's line for parts of the 1969 World Championship and for the entire 1974 Worlds. Exactly the two tournaments mentioned above for prompting the question why the Czechoslovaks ranked Holík ahead of Nedomanský when the latter was the one to receive international accolade.
Thanks for all this. To add, this was around the time Czechoslovakia created the left wing lock to slow down the Soviets, and as their top LW, Jiri Holik would have had a ton of defensive responsibilities. The old Czechoslovak LW lock was apparently more rigid than the system Bowman brought to Detroit. In Bowman's system, it wasn't always the LW who would drop back as a 3rd defenseman to defend the opponent's transition game, but in the old CSSR system, it seems to have been:

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It is said that the left wing lock was invented in Czechoslovakia to counter the great Soviet teams of the 1970s.

Apparently, the best Soviets were left-handed shooters, so they usually began their attacks from their left side (the opponent's right side). To shut them down, both Czech defensemen would move to their right, focusing on that half of the ice. The Czech left winger would come back to cover the spot abandoned by the left defenseman. Between the three of them, they would "lock" the entire zone.
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/lea..._wing_lock.htm

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07-27-2014, 05:01 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
They're very close, but I don't see why Dillon has to be ahead of Patrick.

VsX Comparison:
Patrick - 81.2/80.0
Dillon - 78.4

Hart finishes:
Patrick - 1 3rd place
Dillon - none

Top 5 Goals:
Patrick - 2 (1st, 5th)
Dillon - 2 (2nd, 4th)

Top 5 Points:
Patrick - 3 (2nd, 2nd, 4th)
Dillon - 2 (4th, 5th)

Career GP-G-A-P:
Patrick - 455-145-190-335
Dillon - 453-167-131-298

All-Star Selections:
Patrick - 1 1st team, 1 2nd team
Dillon - 1 1st team, 2 2nd team


They seem close enough that either could be a few spots ahead of the other.
Their offense may be comparable, but Dillon was a much more complete player. Dillon was known as a great two-way player, and as someone that has owned Patrick in the ATD, I can say with confidence he didn't really bring much to the table in terms of intangibles. Check out Dillon's ATD bio, it mentions his backchecking and defensive play multiple times:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...4&postcount=85

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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I really don't understand on why Patrick should be ranked that high. He essentially had 3 really good seasons and the rest was almost average. He's having a hard time making My top 60.
He does have 3 big seasons, but his supporting seasons beyond that are still decent. After those 3 seasons, he has VsX scores of 47, 63, 53, 77, 66, and 65. Lynn Patrick is on my list, but not in the top 60.

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07-27-2014, 05:13 PM
  #490
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Their offense may be comparable, but Dillon was a much more complete player. Dillon was known as a great two-way player, and as someone that has owned Patrick in the ATD, I can say with confidence he didn't really bring much to the table in terms of intangibles. Check out Dillon's ATD bio, it mentions his backchecking and defensive play multiple times:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...4&postcount=85

He does have 3 big seasons, but his supporting seasons beyond that are still decent. After those 3 seasons, he has VsX scores of 47, 63, 53, 77, 66, and 65. Lynn Patrick is on my list, but not in the top 60.
Fair enough. Where could I find Patrick's bio to compare?

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07-27-2014, 05:18 PM
  #491
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Fair enough. Where could I find Patrick's bio to compare?
This thread links to a lot of ATD profiles, including a good one on Patrick: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1149019

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07-27-2014, 05:44 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
They're very close, but I don't see why Dillon has to be ahead of Patrick.

VsX Comparison:
Patrick - 81.2/80.0
Dillon - 78.4

Hart finishes:
Patrick - 1 3rd place
Dillon - none

Top 5 Goals:
Patrick - 2 (1st, 5th)
Dillon - 2 (2nd, 4th)

Top 5 Points:
Patrick - 3 (2nd, 2nd, 4th)
Dillon - 2 (4th, 5th)

Career GP-G-A-P:
Patrick - 455-145-190-335
Dillon - 453-167-131-298

All-Star Selections:
Patrick - 1 1st team, 1 2nd team
Dillon - 1 1st team, 2 2nd team


They seem close enough that either could be a few spots ahead of the other.
Dont forget that Dillon played the bulk of his career stuck behind Bill Cook with no salary cap to force a deal to, say, Montreal.

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07-27-2014, 06:08 PM
  #493
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Dont forget that Dillon played the bulk of his career stuck behind Bill Cook with no salary cap to force a deal to, say, Montreal.
We also know that some of the early stars.from Europe didn't adjust well to the NHL, are we to play the "what if" card with them?

IMO it's better to judge the actual facts a d try to fit some context around it, ie team and league dynamics.

One way to look at is the Dillion wasn't good enough to supplant Cook as the top winger on that team

There are many things to look at here.

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07-27-2014, 06:14 PM
  #494
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We also know that some of the early stars.from Europe didn't adjust well to the NHL, are we to play the "what if" card with them?

IMO it's better to judge the actual facts a d try to fit some context around it, ie team and league dynamics.

One way to look at is the Dillion wasn't good enough to supplant Cook as the top winger on that team

There are many things to look at here.
Is that supposed to be a criticism?

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07-27-2014, 06:22 PM
  #495
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Is that supposed to be a criticism?
Well we are ranking player years here right ? It would take exceptional circumstances for a winger to hit the top 60 of all time and be pretty much a 2nd line player for most of his carrer.

after all we are talking g a out a span of 100 years and with a large influx of elite non Canadian talent from 1970 onwards.

hopefully we are ranking the best players and not giving eras minimum quotas.

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07-27-2014, 06:26 PM
  #496
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Well we are ranking player years here right ? It would take exceptional circumstances for a winger to hit the top 60 of all time and be pretty much a 2nd line player for most of his carrer.
Playing on a team with someone who is among the best 15 wingers ever is pretty exceptional, wouldn't you say? I mean, Malkin has pretty much been a 2nd line player for most of his career...

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07-27-2014, 06:54 PM
  #497
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Is that supposed to be a criticism?
Probably in the same way that saying Jagr's longevity is as good as Gordie Howe's.

I do understand what Theokritos is saying though. It's one thing to say Malkin is a 2nd liner because he is technically the 2nd best center on his team, while possibly still being the 2nd best center in the league. And it's another to say that a guy should be higher than his production indicates, because he played behind an all-time great.

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07-27-2014, 07:02 PM
  #498
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Probably in the same way that saying Jagr's longevity is as good as Gordie Howe's.

I do understand what Theokritos is saying though. It's one thing to say Malkin is a 2nd liner because he is technically the 2nd best center on his team, while possibly still being the 2nd best center in the league. And it's another to say that a guy should be higher than his production indicates, because he played behind an all-time great.
Last sentence captured my thoughts pretty well.

Add in that Dillon is possibly the player who got the lesser amount of offensive help from linemates, and you have the recipe for a player whose legitimately better than his offensive output would suggest.

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07-27-2014, 07:41 PM
  #499
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post

I really don't understand on why Patrick should be ranked that high. He essentially had 3 really good seasons and the rest was almost average. He's having a hard time making My top 60.
He does have 3 big seasons, but his supporting seasons beyond that are still decent. After those 3 seasons, he has VsX scores of 47, 63, 53, 77, 66, and 65. Lynn Patrick is on my list, but not in the top 60.

I also have Patrick on My list and out of the top 60 also.

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07-28-2014, 02:57 AM
  #500
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Seems like a reverse case of the Nedomanský mystery. Vaclav Nedomanský: Impressive international resume, disappointing Golden Stick record. Jiří Holík: the other way round. His best World Championship record we're aware of: third among LWs (behind Kharlamov and Yakushev) in 1972 All-Star voting. (We don't have voting data for 1973, 1975 and 1976 though).
Nedomansky did also quite poorly on that list of the best Czech players all-time by Czech experts (#10, Holik #8) http://sport.idnes.cz/dominik-hasek-...2012_sport_noc. The list does have some (other) questionable placements (Hlinka 5th? Holecek 11th?? Novy 17th???), though. I guess the defection (1974) didn't help Nedomansky's later reputation either. Then again, his disappointing Golden Stick voting record definitely suggests that he wasn't overly valued in Czechoslovakia even in his own time.

Maybe he was simply deemed 'too one-dimensional'/'just a great goal-scorer' by some in Czechoslovakia. His international numbers certainly suggest that he was basically a goal-scorer and not a set up guy; he had 78 goals and only 32 assists (in 11 WHCs/Olympics http://www.goironpigs.com/?p=1548), which is quite an exceptional ratio even for a '60s/'70s CSSR (or Soviet) forward. On the other hand, he might have been the best European goal-scorer of the late '60s/early '70s - or at least just as good as Firsov, Mikhailov, Yakushev - and there are few, if any, more important skills in hockey than the ability to score goals.

Holik's lack of individual accolades is a negative, but it is definitely somewhat compensated by his longevity & consistency (on the Czechoslovak ntl team 1964-1977), not to mention by his acknowledged two-way play. I think he was also a 'clutch player'. Overall, a career without huge highs, but also without any noticeable lows either. Ron Francis of CSSR hockey?

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