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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-28-2014, 12:57 PM
  #501
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Playing on a team with someone who is among the best 15 wingers ever is pretty exceptional, wouldn't you say? I mean, Malkin has pretty much been a 2nd line player for most of his career...
Sure but Malkin is a poor example as he has excelled as a #1 center at times in dependantof Crosby.

It doesn't require a leap of faith or guesswork to evaluate Malkin and his elite status .

not the case with Dillion.

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07-28-2014, 12:59 PM
  #502
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Sure but Malkin is a poor example as he has excelled as a #1 center at times in dependantof Crosby.

It doesn't require a leap of faith or guesswork to evaluate Malkin and his elite status .

not the case with Dillion.
I think it's fair to say that if Cecil Dillon played on the powerplay regularly, he'd likely score more points

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07-28-2014, 01:06 PM
  #503
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I think it's fair to say that if Cecil Dillon played on the powerplay regularly, he'd likely score more points
Sure thingand that Iis true of any player but do we have any breakdowns of ES, P P and SH scoring from his Era?

We can micro analyze the modern guys UTfor limited Iinformation guys it's ot fair to the process to automatically assume "the best case Iimagined scenario" for each player.

sadly this seems to be the case most times especially for players with lost timeto WW 2

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07-28-2014, 01:09 PM
  #504
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Sure thingand that Iis true of any player but do we have any breakdowns of ES, P P and SH scoring from his Era?

We can micro analyze the modern guys UTfor limited Iinformation guys it's ot fair to the process to automatically assume "the best case Iimagined scenario" for each player.

sadly this seems to be the case most times especially for players with lost timeto WW 2
We know that the 1st PP unit usually played the entire PP right through the O6 era, with the 2nd PP unit slowly starting to see more ice time through the 70s and 80s. We also know that Dillon spent most of his career on the 2nd or 3rd line behind Bill Cook.

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07-28-2014, 04:22 PM
  #505
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We know that the 1st PP unit usually played the entire PP right through the O6 era, with the 2nd PP unit slowly starting to see more ice time through the 70s and 80s. We also know that Dillon spent most of his career on the 2nd or 3rd line behind Bill Cook.
We also know that most teams played at least 4 forwards on the PP in the 30s. Boston used Shore and 4 forwards. Detroit used Goodfellow and 4 forwards (which was 5 forwards when Goodfellow was playing C.) Toronto used Clancy and 4 forwards, later 5 forwards.

I don't know who the Rangers used, but they didn't have any high-scoring defencemen. My guess is they used 4 or 5 forwards on the PP. Dillon was always one of the top four scorers on his team, and often first or second. I would assume he was almost certainly in a full-time PP role, even when he was behind Bill Cook at RW.

Newspaper research is probably the only way to determine this for sure.

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07-28-2014, 04:28 PM
  #506
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We also know that most teams played at least 4 forwards on the PP in the 30s. Boston used Shore and 4 forwards. Detroit used Goodfellow and 4 forwards (which was 5 forwards when Goodfellow was playing C.) Toronto used Clancy and 4 forwards, later 5 forwards.

I don't know who the Rangers used, but they didn't have any high-scoring defencemen. My guess is they used 4 or 5 forwards on the PP. Dillon was always one of the top four scorers on his team, and often first or second. I would assume he was almost certainly in a full-time PP role, even when he was behind Bill Cook at RW.

Newspaper research is probably the only way to determine this for sure.
Worth looking into in Round 2, for sure

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07-28-2014, 10:08 PM
  #507
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Sure but Malkin is a poor example as he has excelled as a #1 center at times in dependantof Crosby.

It doesn't require a leap of faith or guesswork to evaluate Malkin and his elite status .

not the case with Dillion.
When Bill Cook started declining big time -- that is, when he turned 39 years old -- Dillon answered with three straight AST berths on right wing.

My point about Dillon? Here's a case of a player that is better than stats indicate.

And what the **** with those 37-38 AST votings results?

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07-28-2014, 10:24 PM
  #508
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When Bill Cook started declining big time -- that is, when he turned 39 years old -- Dillon answered with three straight AST berths on right wing.

My point about Dillon? Here's a case of a player that is better than stats indicate.

And what the **** with those 37-38 AST votings results?
That's an interesting conclusion to come to considering the competition and the all time greatness, or rather lack of it for many all stars in the mid 30's to the early 40's.

The lack of his name actually even coming up outside of 1 year other than those 3 tells a different story than the one you are portraying here.

I guess that will come up if his name comes up in round 2

Dillon also has a 7 year peak and then very little else to his career and that peak coincides with Cook and Boucher in their primes for the most part as well.

He's one of those guys who could be on either side of 80, if people are looking and treating players fairly IMO.

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07-29-2014, 10:09 AM
  #509
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I've always thought it would be great if any discussion of individual players (excluding what position they qualify as) would be saved for the actual start of the project.

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07-29-2014, 11:40 AM
  #510
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Is Marleau even eligible for this list? He was eligible for the centers list.

St Louis needs to be there somewhere.

Iginla, Alfredsson, Hossa, Elias are other active players. Heatley and Sedin maybe too.

Edit: And Kovalchuk
Zetterberg is up there with Kovy.

IS Kovalev on anyone's list?

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07-29-2014, 11:43 AM
  #511
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around where do you guys rank:

Gordie Drillon
Bun Cook
Hec Kilrea

if at all

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07-29-2014, 11:55 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
around where do you guys rank:

Gordie Drillon
Bun Cook
Hec Kilrea

if at all
Drillon: Yes
Cook: Stiil debating
Kilrea: No

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07-29-2014, 12:42 PM
  #513
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Zetterberg is up there with Kovy.
Zetterberg made the Top 60 Centers list.

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07-29-2014, 12:43 PM
  #514
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Has a deadline been established to send all lists in by?

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07-29-2014, 12:46 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Zetterberg is up there with Kovy.

IS Kovalev on anyone's list?
I didn't even think about him. The guy had four 70+ point seasons, and three of them were with Lemieux and/or jagr in Pittsburgh.

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07-29-2014, 02:03 PM
  #516
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Has a deadline been established to send all lists in by?
Aug 8, I think

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07-29-2014, 05:14 PM
  #517
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I didn't even think about him. The guy had four 70+ point seasons, and three of them were with Lemieux and/or jagr in Pittsburgh.
But he had mad $KILLZZ bro! Do you even watch YouTube!?


On a serious note, how does everyone have Hossa and Alfredsson ranked? I feel like they should be very very close to each other.

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07-29-2014, 05:31 PM
  #518
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On a serious note, how does everyone have Hossa and Alfredsson ranked? I feel like they should be very very close to each other.
I have them right next to each other, and they're in the middle of a modern chunk that includes Shanahan, Goulet, Kovalchuk, Naslund, LeClair, Elias, and Fleury.

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07-29-2014, 10:44 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
around where do you guys rank:

Gordie Drillon
Bun Cook
Hec Kilrea

if at all
I have none currently listed, but Drillon was a hard no. I might rethink that one.

I have Hossa 14 spots above Alfredsson. I'm lower on Alfie than most. I can't shake the fact that he led Ottawa in scoring only 3 times through 17 seasons. Yashin, then Hossa, then Heatly and Spezza, they all produced more than Alfie. It's not even that he didn't do it alone (which he didn't-from 2000-2008, his prime, the Sens lowest position in goals scored was #2 in the Eastern Conference), it's that he got passed up by better players throughout his career. Alfredsson is closest to Patrick Elias among active players, and my list reflects that.

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07-30-2014, 12:55 PM
  #520
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Opinions on Rod Gilbert, Bill Barber, Steve Shutt, Rick Martin and Joe Mullen?

I have them all in the lower quarter of the list.

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07-30-2014, 01:45 PM
  #521
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Opinions on Rod Gilbert, Bill Barber, Steve Shutt, Rick Martin and Joe Mullen?

I have them all in the lower quarter of the list.
I have Shutt (as of now), Barber in my top 80

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07-30-2014, 03:15 PM
  #522
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1930s Powerplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think it's fair to say that if Cecil Dillon played on the powerplay regularly, he'd likely score more points
1930s powerplays did not offer many opportunities nor were they overly successful even though the complete two minutes had to be served.

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07-30-2014, 05:35 PM
  #523
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Opinions on Rod Gilbert, Bill Barber, Steve Shutt, Rick Martin and Joe Mullen?

I have them all in the lower quarter of the list.
Martin
Gilbert
Barber
Mullen
Shutt

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07-30-2014, 05:49 PM
  #524
seventieslord
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Martin
Gilbert
Barber
Mullen
Shutt
With neither player offering an excellent playoff resume or set of intangibles, shouldn't Gilbert be considerably ahead of Martin, considering he posted prime Martin numbers, but for twice as long?

and I mean literally. Martin posted 5 seasons with a vsx score of 70+. Gilbert did it 10 times. And was a top-20 scorer 10 times as opposed to 4 for Martin.

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07-30-2014, 06:00 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Martin
Gilbert
Barber
Mullen
Shutt
Well that's my order with Gilbert and Martin reversed though.
I just wanted to check if I'm not totally mistaken in even including them.

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