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Sakic/Forsberg vs Crosby/Malkin

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Old
07-28-2014, 02:57 AM
  #26
Sadekuuro
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Sakic and Forsberg, for sure. More likely to perform under pressure.

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07-28-2014, 10:15 AM
  #27
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
With Crosby and Malkin we've rarely seen them both be great at the same time. That year was 2009. Malkin wins the Art Ross with 113 points and Crosby has 103. They win the Cup with 36 and 31 playoff points respectably. Other than that, either one of them has been injured, or Malkin has been inconsistent or one of them has just been bad in the playoffs. Or both of them. Imagine if both of these guys were "on" at the same time?

I guess in a way Sakic and Forsberg have that as well. In the postseason one of them was usually more noticeable than the other. But to be honest they carried the Avs better than Crosby and Malkin carried the Pens. Maybe they lose to Dallas a couple times in the conference final, but they don't lose to the Rangers, Canadiens, Flyers in poor fashion. I guess 1998 is the only time that they lost to a team that made you think "Woah, that shouldn't happen."
i'd add minnesota in '03.

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07-28-2014, 10:32 AM
  #28
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Sakic and Forsberg are miles beyond Sid and Geno. They played in much tougher era with much greater success. In playoffs it's not even a contest: they would usually only lose to the eventual Cup winner or at least a team of equal greatness. Unlike Pens who you can pretty much count upon to implode against weaker opposition.

The regular season trophies don't mean much either. Neither Crosby nor Malkin win a single Hart against Lemieux, Hasek, and Jagr.

Skills-wise the Avs are also better, as both offensive weapons and as two-way players.

You people are funny.

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07-28-2014, 01:55 PM
  #29
Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Sakic and Forsberg are miles beyond Sid and Geno. They played in much tougher era with much greater success. In playoffs it's not even a contest: they would usually only lose to the eventual Cup winner or at least a team of equal greatness. Unlike Pens who you can pretty much count upon to implode against weaker opposition.

The regular season trophies don't mean much either. Neither Crosby nor Malkin win a single Hart against Lemieux, Hasek, and Jagr.

Skills-wise the Avs are also better, as both offensive weapons and as two-way players.

You people are funny.
I chose Sakic and Forsberg as well, but to say they are miles beyond Crosby and Malkin is quite wrong IMO. Using the fact of how much better their teams did is not really fair, since Colorado always had a deeper team than Pittsburgh, and the second best (arguably the very best) goalie of all-time.

Also, I could have sworn I saw you say Crosby and Malkin are both superior to Forsberg, which means you must think the world of Sakic to rank him and Forsberg easily over Crosby and Malkin.

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07-28-2014, 05:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I guess in a way Sakic and Forsberg have that as well. In the postseason one of them was usually more noticeable than the other. But to be honest they carried the Avs better than Crosby and Malkin carried the Pens.
I'd probably take Sakic and Forsberg too, for this reason. They faced some brutal playoff competition in the late '90s/early '00s and rarely failed to shine.

But... in fairness, they also had more support. Swap out Patrick Roy for Marc-Andre Fleury and those Avs might never have won a single Cup. Or, alternatively — in a cap-constrained world, Sakic and Forsberg likely would've had weaker support on the wings.

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07-28-2014, 06:19 PM
  #31
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I'd probably take Sakic and Forsberg too, for this reason. They faced some brutal playoff competition in the late '90s/early '00s and rarely failed to shine.

But... in fairness, they also had more support. Swap out Patrick Roy for Marc-Andre Fleury and those Avs might never have won a single Cup. Or, alternatively in a cap-constrained world, Sakic and Forsberg likely would've had weaker support on the wings.
the first hypothesis: yeah, maybe. MAF has had his moments, but obviously the wings and stars were tougher than any team he's beaten in his career.

the second one: i don't know about that. in 96, forsberg would still be on an ELC. in '01, i think hejduk and tanguay are still on their ELCs and drury too (though i think he mostly played center). and it's not like the avs were stacked with ringers on the wing, not in the years they won, anyway. claude lemieux would be the big money guy in '96, but young and kamensky wouldn't have broken the bank with forsberg still cheap.

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07-28-2014, 09:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
the first hypothesis: yeah, maybe. MAF has had his moments, but obviously the wings and stars were tougher than any team he's beaten in his career.

the second one: i don't know about that. in 96, forsberg would still be on an ELC. in '01, i think hejduk and tanguay are still on their ELCs and drury too (though i think he mostly played center). and it's not like the avs were stacked with ringers on the wing, not in the years they won, anyway. claude lemieux would be the big money guy in '96, but young and kamensky wouldn't have broken the bank with forsberg still cheap.
Yeah, fair points — a salary cap wouldn't have affected them much in 1996 at all.

I was thinking more of the late '90s/early 2000s. The Avs had the 3rd-highest payroll in 2001 (behind Detroit and of course the New York Rangers), so a cap might've hurt their depth a bit there. Though, on the flip side, it would've knocked down their big rivals Detroit and Dallas a peg as well. And Forsberg wouldn't have been able to make $11 million per year or whatever it was. So I guess it's not so clear how this would all shake out.


Last edited by Dissonance: 07-28-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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07-28-2014, 10:22 PM
  #33
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Yeah, fair points a salary cap wouldn't have affected them much in 1996 at all.

I was thinking more of the late '90s/early 2000s. The Avs had the 3rd-highest payroll in 2001 (behind Detroit and of course the New York Rangers), so a cap might've hurt their depth a bit there. Though, on the flip side, it would've knocked down their big rivals Detroit and Dallas a peg as well. And Forsberg wouldn't have been able to make $11 million per year or whatever it was. So I guess it's not so clear how this would all shake out.
i think you're absolutely right that the avs wouldn't have been able to keep together a team with sakic, forsberg, roy, and foote for as long as they did with the salary cap. and they certainly wouldn't have been able to add bourque and/or blake. but whatever those hypothetical avs would have lost in a cap era, it wouldn't have been on the wings; that was the position they tended to skimp on... just like today's penguins. the wingers with the third and fourth highest icetime when they won the cup in 2001: shjon podein and ville nieminen (not counting drury, who replaced forsberg at center).

sakic/forsberg had a much much much better goalie than crosby/malkin do. but in terms of depth elsewhere in the lineup, i think it's not that far off. both teams were generally top heavy, and especially center-heavy.

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07-28-2014, 10:29 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I'd probably take Sakic and Forsberg too, for this reason. They faced some brutal playoff competition in the late '90s/early '00s and rarely failed to shine.

But... in fairness, they also had more support. Swap out Patrick Roy for Marc-Andre Fleury and those Avs might never have won a single Cup. Or, alternatively in a cap-constrained world, Sakic and Forsberg likely would've had weaker support on the wings.
Did they really have any better of wingers than the Pens have had though? Milan Hejduk comes to mind as the best. Alex Tanguay I guess was briefly good at one point but never a star. Before that you have Kamensky for a couple of years and the always unpredictable (not in a good way) Claude Lemieux. Theo Fleury is there for one playoff too. Is it really any better than James Neal, Chris Kunitz, Marian Hossa, Bill Guerin, Petr Sykora? Not much. I'll agree with the Roy vs. Fleury thing.

Look at who the Avs lost to as well. The Red Wings twice. The Stars twice. Won the Cup twice. Lost to the Oilers and Wild, both went to Game 7. A couple of series they should have taken, but the Pens lost to Detroit in 2008, won the cup, lost to a much inferior team in Montreal, their best players were injured in 2011 but they lost anyway, lost to Philly in 2012, lost to Boston in 2013 and Rangers in 2014. Detroit I can see in 2008. No problem. The only other team that makes sense is Boston. However, they got swept and Crosby, Malkin, Iginla, Neal and Letang didn't have a point. They just have a bad habit of losing ugly. It's like the Twilight Zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'd add minnesota in '03.
fair enough. Still, their losses look a lot better than the Pens losses. Plus, they won two Cups compared to the Pens' 1.

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07-29-2014, 07:14 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by FinProspects View Post
If we take the best goal and assist totals for each player, dont know if that makes any sense (Bernie Nicholls would beat all of them..):
Regular season:
Crosby 51+84=135
Malkin 50+78=128
Sakic 51+69=120
Forsberg 30+86=116

Playoffs:
Crosby 15+21=36
Malkin 14+22=36
Sakic 18+17=35
Forsberg 10+18=28

.
nope nope nope.

Malkin has not scored 128p and crosby hasnt scored 135p.

1. Crosby 120p
2. Sakic 120p
3. Forsberg 116p
4. Malkin 113p

playoffs:

1. Malkin 36p
2. Sakic 34p
3. Crosby 31p
4. Forsberg 29p


while forsberg has the "worst" playoff points total in a postseason, he is the only one that reached 29p without playing the finals. If Colorado had gotten by Detroit or Dallas, Forsberg would definitely had his postseason run in the mid 30s as well. Especially that year when the wings just ran over the canes.


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07-29-2014, 07:35 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by LarsVonTrier View Post
nope nope nope.

Malkin has not scored 128p and crosby hasnt scored 135p.

1. Crosby 120p
2. Sakic 120p
3. Forsberg 116p
4. Malkin 113p

playoffs:

1. Malkin 36p
2. Sakic 34p
3. Crosby 31p
4. Forsberg 29p


while forsberg has the "worst" playoff points total in a postseason, he is the only one that reached 29p without playing the finals. If Colorado had gotten by Detroit or Dallas, Forsberg would definitely had his postseason run in the mid 30s as well. Especially that year when the wings just ran over the canes.
You do realize that he wasn't talking about one single season? It was best goal-scoring finish + best assist finish.

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07-29-2014, 07:50 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
You do realize that he wasn't talking about one single season? It was best goal-scoring finish + best assist finish.
that seems like a terrible comparison.

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07-29-2014, 07:52 AM
  #38
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that seems like a terrible comparison.
It is basically useless. But that's what he was doing.

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07-29-2014, 08:02 AM
  #39
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Hard to go against all the statistical manipulations and my boy Crosby (especially that trophy case), but I think I'd have to take Sakic/Forsberg. Tried and true against some of the very best ever and representatives of some of the best "all-round" hockey that anyone has ever witnessed.

It's close, though; like weighing Yzerman/Fedorov against the same Avs duo.

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07-29-2014, 08:59 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hard to go against all the statistical manipulations and my boy Crosby (especially that trophy case), but I think I'd have to take Sakic/Forsberg. Tried and true against some of the very best ever and representatives of some of the best "all-round" hockey that anyone has ever witnessed.

It's close, though; like weighing Yzerman/Fedorov against the same Avs duo.
Yeah.

I think when it is all said and done for these all, the order will be:

Crosby/Malkin (Mainly due to Crosby, cause he will probably be considered as the best player out of the group of these 6 players)
Sakic/Forsberg (I think Sakic is marginally better than Yzerman and Forsberg is marginally better than Feds)
Yzerman/Fedorov (Not a shame to come out last spot here. Both awesome players. But not quite as good as the two other groups)

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07-29-2014, 09:38 AM
  #41
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Gee, 2 HoF top 100 players all time vs 2 who are not. It's such a tough call.

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07-29-2014, 09:53 AM
  #42
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Gee, 2 HoF top 100 players all time vs 2 who are not. It's such a tough call.
All 4 of those players will be in the HHOF. The top 60 centers project that was done half way through last season had Forsberg just 2 spots ahead of Crosby. Since that time he added a Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross, 1st team all star and a Gold Medal. If that list was done now, they might have flipped spots. Certainly Crosby will be ahead of him when his career is done, if he isn't already.

Malkin placed 40th on the list. But we are talking about peak here anyways. Malkin has been inconsistent and injured thus holding his ranking back. But at his peak he is a 110 point player who had a 36 point playoff run.

Sakic was much higher at 10th all-time. But I would argue that is more to do with his career accomplishments and longevity rather than him being a better player than Crosby.

The way I see it is:
Crosby > Sakic
Forsberg > Malkin

So I would take the pair that had the best player, Crosby + Malkin.

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07-29-2014, 10:32 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
Gee, 2 HoF top 100 players all time vs 2 who are not. It's such a tough call.
Forsberg

1 art Ross
1 hart

Sakic

1 hart
1 Lindsay
1 Smythe

Crosby

2 harts
2 art Ross
3 lindsays
1 richard

Malkin

1 hart
2 art Ross
1 Lindsay
1 Smythe

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07-29-2014, 10:35 AM
  #44
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All 4 of those players will be in the HHOF. The top 60 centers project that was done half way through last season had Forsberg just 2 spots ahead of Crosby. Since that time he added a Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross, 1st team all star and a Gold Medal. If that list was done now, they might have flipped spots. Certainly Crosby will be ahead of him when his career is done, if he isn't already.

Malkin placed 40th on the list. But we are talking about peak here anyways. Malkin has been inconsistent and injured thus holding his ranking back. But at his peak he is a 110 point player who had a 36 point playoff run.

Sakic was much higher at 10th all-time. But I would argue that is more to do with his career accomplishments and longevity rather than him being a better player than Crosby.

The way I see it is:
Crosby > Sakic
Forsberg > Malkin

So I would take the pair that had the best player, Crosby + Malkin.
Are we?

All these discussions about "not showing up in the playoffs", "only plays well when the other is injured", etc. make me think we're not taking their hypothetical peaks.

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07-29-2014, 10:43 AM
  #45
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Did they really have any better of wingers than the Pens have had though? Milan Hejduk comes to mind as the best. Alex Tanguay I guess was briefly good at one point but never a star. Before that you have Kamensky for a couple of years and the always unpredictable (not in a good way) Claude Lemieux. Theo Fleury is there for one playoff too. Is it really any better than James Neal, Chris Kunitz, Marian Hossa, Bill Guerin, Petr Sykora? Not much. I'll agree with the Roy vs. Fleury thing.

Look at who the Avs lost to as well. The Red Wings twice. The Stars twice. Won the Cup twice. Lost to the Oilers and Wild, both went to Game 7. A couple of series they should have taken, but the Pens lost to Detroit in 2008, won the cup, lost to a much inferior team in Montreal, their best players were injured in 2011 but they lost anyway, lost to Philly in 2012, lost to Boston in 2013 and Rangers in 2014. Detroit I can see in 2008. No problem. The only other team that makes sense is Boston. However, they got swept and Crosby, Malkin, Iginla, Neal and Letang didn't have a point. They just have a bad habit of losing ugly. It's like the Twilight Zone.



fair enough. Still, their losses look a lot better than the Pens losses. Plus, they won two Cups compared to the Pens' 1.
this to me is what pushes it decisively in sakic/forsberg's favour. won more against better teams with a pretty comparable supporting cast. look at the period from 96-02: they made the conference finals every year but 1. now look at the penguins 08-14: some pretty embarrassing losses in there, only one conference finals appearance after the back-to-back SC finals. for two players who are head and shoulders over the competition to fail in such abject fashion time and again is a serious blemish on their legacy as far as i'm concerned, compared with guys in sakic and forsberg that pretty well always performed brilliantly, even in defeat - forsberg leading playoff scoring without making the finals in 99 and 02, sakic leading in assists in 97 - haven't seen anything like that from C and M except maybe crosby 2010.

well, there's time for them to bounce back, but i take sakic and forsberg.

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07-29-2014, 10:45 AM
  #46
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this to me is what pushes it decisively in sakic/forsberg's favour. won more against better teams with a pretty comparable supporting cast. look at the period from 96-02: they made the conference finals every year but 1. now look at the penguins 08-14: some pretty embarrassing losses in there, only one conference finals appearance after the back-to-back SC finals. for two players who are head and shoulders over the competition to fail in such abject fashion time and again is a serious blemish on their legacy as far as i'm concerned, compared with guys in sakic and forsberg that pretty well always performed brilliantly, even in defeat - forsberg leading playoff scoring without making the finals in 99 and 02, sakic leading in assists in 97 - haven't seen anything like that from C and M except maybe crosby 2010.

well, there's time for them to bounce back, but i take sakic and forsberg.
Crosby and Malkin both had 28 points in 17 games entering the 09 finals....

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07-29-2014, 10:50 AM
  #47
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Are we?

All these discussions about "not showing up in the playoffs", "only plays well when the other is injured", etc. make me think we're not taking their hypothetical peaks.
First post says, "In their primes, not injured who would you rather have".

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07-29-2014, 11:32 AM
  #48
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Yeah.

I think when it is all said and done for these all, the order will be:

Crosby/Malkin (Mainly due to Crosby, cause he will probably be considered as the best player out of the group of these 6 players)
Sakic/Forsberg (I think Sakic is marginally better than Yzerman and Forsberg is marginally better than Feds)
Yzerman/Fedorov (Not a shame to come out last spot here. Both awesome players. But not quite as good as the two other groups)
You got them in reverse. . The Wings boys both have the highest peaks of the six.

Again, Crosby and Malkin can win exactly ONE Hart in the 90s (and I am being generous at the expense of 95 Lindros). In playoffs, where it matters, they have been mediocre at best, usually disappearing against lesser opposition. All their RS heroics mean squat.

And they had pretty good support cast, compared to the rest of the league too (Hossa, Sykora, Guerin, Neil, Kunitz, Iginla, etc). Putting them over proven playoff heroes and winners is asinine.

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07-29-2014, 11:44 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Forsberg

1 art Ross
1 hart

Sakic

1 hart
1 Lindsay
1 Smythe

Crosby

2 harts
2 art Ross
3 lindsays
1 richard

Malkin

1 hart
2 art Ross
1 Lindsay
1 Smythe
Here are some numbers on voting/placing results since coming in 2nd or 3rd, etc deserves recognition as well, especially since you can have a great season a lose to an all-time great season or player.

Forsberg:

Hart finishes: 1, 7, 8, 11, 13, 17
Top 3: 1 times
Top 10: 3 times

Art Ross finishes: 1, 2, 4, 5, 9
Top 3: 2 times
Top 10: 5 times

Rocket Richard finishes: none
Top 3: 0 times
Top 10: 0 times

Assist finishes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10
Top 3: 3 times
Top 10: 7 times

Selke finishes: 2, 4, 6, 8, 11, 34
Top 3: 1
Top 10: 5

Sakic:

Hart finishes: 1, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8 14, 14, 15
Top 3: 1 times
Top 10: 6 times

Art Ross finishes: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9, 10
Top 3: 3 times
Top 10: 11 times

Rocket Richard finishes: 2, 5, 6, 6, 10, 15
Top 3: 1 times
Top 10: 5 times

Assist finishes: 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9
Top 3: 2 times
Top 10: 9 times

Selke finishes: 2, 9, 10, 13, 15, 15, 24
Top 3: 1
Top 10: 3

Forsberg + Sakic:
Total 1sts: 4
Total top 3s: 15
Total top 10s: 54

-----------------------------------------------------

Crosby:

Hart finishes: 1, 1, 2, 3, 6, 17, 20, 24
Top 3: 4 times
Top 10: 5 times

Art Ross finishes: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 6
Top 3: 5 times
Top 10: 6 times

Rocket Richard finishes: 1, 7
Top 3: 1 times
Top 10: 2 times

Assist finishes: 1, 2, 2, 2, 7, 8
Top 3: 4 times
Top 10: 6 times

Selke finishes: 15, 18, 30
Top 3: 0 times
Top 10: 0 times

Malkin:

Hart finishes: 1, 2, 2
Top 3: 3 times
Top 10: 3 times

Art Ross finishes: 1, 1, 2
Top 3: 3 times
Top 10: 3 times

Rocket Richard finishes: 2, 4
Top 3: 1 times
Top 10: 2 times

Assist finishes: 1, 3, 6, 10
Top 3: 2 times
Top 10: 4 times

Selke finishes: 46
Top 3: 0 times
Top 10: 0 times

Crosby + Malkin:
Total 1sts: 10
Total top 3s: 24
Total top 10s: 31

-Crosby and Malkin have the advantage in 1st place finishes and top 3s. Sakic and Forsberg in top 10s. This shows that at their peaks Crosby and Malkin have finished higher, but they haven't matched the total longevity (mainly of Sakic). I didn't include Lindsay and Conn Smythe because there aren't voting results for each season. Malkin and Sakic each have a Smythe and Crosby + Malkin have 4 Lindsays while Forsberg + Sakic have 1. Also didn't include Calder, but both duos have 1 between them


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-29-2014 at 12:16 PM.
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07-29-2014, 12:31 PM
  #50
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You got them in reverse. . The Wings boys both have the highest peaks of the six.

Again, Crosby and Malkin can win exactly ONE Hart in the 90s (and I am being generous at the expense of 95 Lindros). In playoffs, where it matters, they have been mediocre at best, usually disappearing against lesser opposition. All their RS heroics mean squat.

And they had pretty good support cast, compared to the rest of the league too (Hossa, Sykora, Guerin, Neil, Kunitz, Iginla, etc). Putting them over proven playoff heroes and winners is asinine.
Obviously they are really close. So, someone could easily make a case for the Wings duo. Considering peak only, I think Yzerman and Fedorov are the right answer. Feds is really close with Sakic in best season. Although I think Sakic beats Feds if we take the playoffs from that peak season in account too. Yzerman was really strong offensively in his 155 year. Although, funnily enough Sakic gets the exact same 128 adjusted points in his best year as Yzerman did too. But I am not sold on it being offensively as good as Yzerman's 155. Fedorov actually has the lowest offensive peak out of these all guys. But he also is the only guy who can be described as defensive minded forward. Fedorov had the least amount of offensively elite season's tough.

Malkin, in my mind is the weakest one here. Then it is Fedorov and Forsberg and I think Forsberg has the edge. Then Crosby and Sakic is still at top. But if Crosby continues on the path he is now, (assuming he bounces back to good playoff performer too) he is capable of taking the top-spot from Sakic. That is far from definite tough.

Playoff-wise, I am not sure if there actually is too much separating them. Yzerman was great playoff performer in the later stages of his career. But he really only has two truly great playoffs. Well, maybe three.

Sakic has 5 playoffs where his team did good and he was one of the best players of the whole playoffs.

Forsberg has his two magical "lead the playoffs in scoring while being out of the finals". But other than that, he really doesn't appear as much on the scoring lead. But granted, it was more about being injured.

Crosby and Malkin both have some ground to make up. But if they manage to put together one more finals appearance with great play, it is hard to put those guys significantly below any of the 4.

I still pick Crosby/Malkin first, then Avs-duo and then Wings-duo. But the margins are small.

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