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Does Gretzky or Lemieux Benefit More if the Other Never Existed?

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Old
07-28-2014, 02:14 PM
  #151
Ageless
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't see it as any better than Gordie Howe's 52-53 season.
He returned from cancer treatment and scored 51 points in his final 20 games. He's the only player to reach Gretzky level. Howe never did he was consistent though

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07-28-2014, 03:35 PM
  #152
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There's good arguments for both sides here. I'll go with "No Gretzky helps Lemieux more" and here's why....

Without Lemieux, Gretzky goes from solid but arguable 1st to a lock for 1st. In other words, you can't really get better than number 1. The arguments for Bobby Orr being better overall are somewhat legitimized by Lemieux making similar but inferior runs to Gretzky. But most still rank Gretzky number 1.

Without Gretzky, Lemieux is elevated from number 2, number 3, or number 4 depending on who you ask, to probably number 1 since all-time greats in most sports are (fairly or unfairly) often ranked by offensive output. Guys like me who already rank Lemieux number 1, I do understand, are in the minority.

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07-28-2014, 03:43 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The early 80s are not the same thing as the late 80s for the context under discussion. And it's no one's fault when they're born, and there's no suggestion that one player should be punished, but you do have to consider all of the context that you can consider. Raw numbers can be misleading.
1986 and 1989 are two (actual) seasons apart (1986-87 and 1987-88 being the two in between). I don't think the game of hockey changed that much over those two seasons. In 1986, Gretzky scored 215 points (his best ever) and a ridiculous 163 assists. In 1989, Lemieux scored 199 points and 114 assists (both being his best). Gretzky beats him quite handily in points with a 16 point lead…but DESTROYS him in assists.

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07-28-2014, 04:19 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
1986 and 1989 are two (actual) seasons apart (1986-87 and 1987-88 being the two in between). I don't think the game of hockey changed that much over those two seasons. In 1986, Gretzky scored 215 points (his best ever) and a ridiculous 163 assists. In 1989, Lemieux scored 199 points and 114 assists (both being his best). Gretzky beats him quite handily in points with a 16 point lead…but DESTROYS him in assists.
The average team scored 0.25 goals per game less in the latter season than the earlier. It's not a huge difference but you can't pretend it's not there.

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07-28-2014, 04:24 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The average team scored 0.25 goals per game less in the latter season than the earlier. It's not a huge difference but you can't pretend it's not there.
Gretzky won the scoring title by 74 points in 85-86 over a pre-peak Lemieux. Lemieux won by 31 points in 88-89 over a post peak Gretzky. It really doesn't matter what the league did when it comes to these two guys. They dictate when and how often they are going to score. I'd only put a few other players in this category - Orr, Howe and Robert Marvin Hull.

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07-28-2014, 04:39 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Gretzky won the scoring title by 74 points in 85-86 over a pre-peak Lemieux. Lemieux won by 31 points in 88-89 over a post peak Gretzky. It really doesn't matter what the league did when it comes to these two guys. They dictate when and how often they are going to score. I'd only put a few other players in this category - Orr, Howe and Robert Marvin Hull.
It's simplistic to say that they could dictate when they would score. If the league's goaltenders were getting better as a whole, for example, such a player might be affected less by this change, but you cannot say they wouldn't be affected at all.

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07-28-2014, 04:51 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
It's simplistic to say that they could dictate when they would score. If the league's goaltenders were getting better as a whole, for example, such a player might be affected less by this change, but you cannot say they wouldn't be affected at all.
These 4 or 5 players were better than anyone else in history at executing their offensive gifts and likely could in any era of hockey history.

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07-28-2014, 11:03 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The average team scored 0.25 goals per game less in the latter season than the earlier. It's not a huge difference but you can't pretend it's not there.
Does the change in league average account for an extra 16 points mathematically though?

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07-28-2014, 11:08 PM
  #159
vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The early 80s are not the same thing as the late 80s for the context under discussion. And it's no one's fault when they're born, and there's no suggestion that one player should be punished, but you do have to consider all of the context that you can consider. Raw numbers can be misleading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
1986 and 1989 are two (actual) seasons apart (1986-87 and 1987-88 being the two in between). I don't think the game of hockey changed that much over those two seasons. In 1986, Gretzky scored 215 points (his best ever) and a ridiculous 163 assists. In 1989, Lemieux scored 199 points and 114 assists (both being his best). Gretzky beats him quite handily in points with a 16 point lead…but DESTROYS him in assists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
The average team scored 0.25 goals per game less in the latter season than the earlier. It's not a huge difference but you can't pretend it's not there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
It's simplistic to say that they could dictate when they would score. If the league's goaltenders were getting better as a whole, for example, such a player might be affected less by this change, but you cannot say they wouldn't be affected at all.
a wise man once mansplained to me: "Before you answer a question, make sure there is a question that needs answering. . . By insisting that there must be some specific explanation, you deny that chance plays any role in hockey stats from year to year."

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07-29-2014, 01:47 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
He's the only player to reach Gretzky level. Howe never did
The numbers above show that he did reach a level on par with the best seasons of Lemieux.

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Old
07-29-2014, 04:30 PM
  #161
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Offensively, Howe and Hull aren't in Gretzky and Mario's class. They are in the next tier with the rest of the greats but 99/66 get their own seats at the top.

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07-30-2014, 09:58 AM
  #162
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Is Gretzky's season in the WHA ever brought up in the comparisons of the 2 players?

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08-02-2014, 02:14 PM
  #163
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Howe beats them all for longevity. He had 103 points as a 40 year old, good for 3rd in the NHL that year. That's incredible. Not to mention 20 years of being top 5 in scoring. Amazing.

As for peak value, a 1989 and 1993 Mario are out of this world to be honest. Those years compare with a peak Gretzky. But Gretzky of course had many more of these seasons. Howe has the better all around game than Mario but offensively I'll still give Mario the edge.

3rd best offensive player though is Howe, without a doubt in my mind.

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08-02-2014, 02:45 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
3rd best offensive player though is Howe, without a doubt in my mind.
Ya I dont know about that Phil. Maurice Richard, a lot more dangerous from the Blue~Line
in IMO. Bobby Hull. Then theres the Garbageman, Phil Esposito; the Sniper, Mike Bossy..............

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08-03-2014, 01:31 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya I dont know about that Phil. Maurice Richard, a lot more dangerous from the Blue~Line
in IMO. Bobby Hull. Then theres the Garbageman, Phil Esposito; the Sniper, Mike Bossy..............
I would put Howe ahead of all three of them.

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