HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Jagr's playoff legacy

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-30-2014, 07:33 AM
  #1
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Jagr's playoff legacy

Do you think Jagr's playoff legacy hurts his overall rating?

Although I think he generally met expectations with his playoff performances in his Art Ross years, he doesn't have a great individual playoff run where he put a big number because his team didn't go deep. His most memorable playoff was in 1992 mainly because of his age, rather than his numbers. Compared to the all-time greats, his great regular season to great playoff run ratio is probably the worst among the top 10 offensive forwards.

Although he is usually rated above his peers from the same era, Forsberg and Sakic get extra points for their playoff performances bringing them closer than what their regular season #'s would indicate.

His closest current rival, Crosby, has him beat in playoff peak already regardless of how the rest of his career goes.

Do you think it's fair to judge him on something arguably out of his control or, similar an injury, it is what it is, and one cannot assume he would have had a big playoff run if his team got to the finals?

daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:36 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,956
vCash: 500
I think his playoff record is similar to Phil Esposito's. Not bad at all. Actually, compared to almost any other player in the league, pretty great. But still not quite living up to his regular season dominance.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 08:40 AM
  #3
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think his playoff record is similar to Phil Esposito's. Not bad at all. Actually, compared to almost any other player in the league, pretty great. But still not quite living up to his regular season dominance.
But unlike Jagr, Phil has big cup-final runs on his resume.

daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 09:11 AM
  #4
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Do you think Jagr's playoff legacy hurts his overall rating?

Although I think he generally met expectations with his playoff performances in his Art Ross years, he doesn't have a great individual playoff run where he put a big number because his team didn't go deep. His most memorable playoff was in 1992 mainly because of his age, rather than his numbers. Compared to the all-time greats, his great regular season to great playoff run ratio is probably the worst among the top 10 offensive forwards.

Although he is usually rated above his peers from the same era, Forsberg and Sakic get extra points for their playoff performances bringing them closer than what their regular season #'s would indicate.

His closest current rival, Crosby, has him beat in playoff peak already regardless of how the rest of his career goes.

Do you think it's fair to judge him on something arguably out of his control or, similar an injury, it is what it is, and one cannot assume he would have had a big playoff run if his team got to the finals?
It is an unfair comparison for Jagr because when he was in his prime and at his best his team was going bankrupt and disintegrating around him.

He performed consistently in the playoffs despite having weak teams during that time and being the sole focus of every opposition's game plan.

You say Sakic and Forsberg get extra points for their playoffs during that era but imagine swapping one of them and putting prime Jagr on the Avs with one of those centers and Bourque / Blake / Roy etc. instead of what Jagr had to work with.. I can easily imagine those bonus points getting given to Jagr instead. The D and goaltending on those Pittsburgh teams.. yikes.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 09:18 AM
  #5
zeropotentate
Registered User
 
zeropotentate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 294
vCash: 500
Jagr sits at 199 playoff points. Only 4 others have more: Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Gretzky.

Hopefully Jagr will get at least 1 more point in the playoffs before retiring. And if he never went to the KHL his playoff point totals might be higher than Anderson's.

I don't see how that hurts his legacy, wouldn't it add to it?

zeropotentate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 09:41 AM
  #6
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 11,801
vCash: 500
What's with the obsession about Jagr and poking at his resume?

I think he has stellar playoff resume. But true, not as good as his regular-season would suggest he is capable of. It still is good enough to not weight him down on the all-time ranking. Granted, it is not giving him a big boost either.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 10:00 AM
  #7
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
But unlike Jagr, Phil has big cup-final runs on his resume.
In '91, Jagr was an 18-19 y/o homesick rookie. If the Pens lose game 2 in OT, they would be down 0-2 and headed back to Jersey for 3 in a row, but:

Jagr OT Goal vs. Devils 1991 Playoffs

In '92 Jagr led the playoffs in ES goals, scored 3 consecutive GWG goals to close out round 2 vs. Rangers and open round 3 vs. Bruins.
Some of Jagr's large role in that Cup run can be seen here (approx. 5:45-7:30 & 9:00-9:20):

Against the Odds Part 4

... and here (approx. 3:15-4:00):

Against the Odds Part 5

and his legendary goal very late in the third period of game 1 of the SCF, with his team down by a goal vs. a Chicago team that had won 11 in a row:

Jagr Game 1 Goal in 1992 SCF

Then there was the dispatching of #1 seeded Devils in '99.
The comeback OT win in Game 6 to avoid elimination (comeback starts at approx. 3:50):

Pens vs. Devils 1999 Game 6

When at age 20 you can stick handle through almost the entire team late in 3rd period of a SCF game, against a team known for their team defense, who had won 11 in a row in the playoffs after leading the West (2nd in league) in GA, to tie the score... or when you can tie the score with ~ 2 minutes left in an elimination game, then score in OT, on the road, against one of the great defensive teams of the past few decades, despite a serious injury... then I don't see it as much of a stretch to assume he could have a big Cup run and score clutch playoff goals... because he did both already (the first outside his prime, and the second despite injuries and being on weak teams against top competition).


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-30-2014 at 10:12 AM.
Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 10:15 AM
  #8
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
What's with the obsession about Jagr and poking at his resume?

I think he has stellar playoff resume. But true, not as good as his regular-season would suggest he is capable of. It still is good enough to not weight him down on the all-time ranking. Granted, it is not giving him a big boost either.
While I'll refuse to comment on the judgement of obsession, I didn't think I was poking him, merely pointing out an oft-stated fact that his playoff resume is lacking when compared to the other greats and asking opinions if this lowers his status.


Last edited by daver: 07-30-2014 at 10:58 AM.
daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 10:17 AM
  #9
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,189
vCash: 500
Yeah he doesn't really have that one great playoff run. His 91 and 92 runs had some key moments. But he only scored 13 points in 20 games in the first Cup - tied with Phil Bourque for 13th on the team.

In the 2nd Cup run he was better with 24 points in 21 games, but considering the high scoring era those aren't especially great numbers and he was 4th on the team in scoring.

Outside of that 23 points in 18 games is his best in a significant amount of games in 1995-1996. But again considering the era the numbers aren't exactly amazing there, Sakic had 34 points in 22 games that season.


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-30-2014 at 10:37 AM.
Beau Knows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 11:28 AM
  #10
Rexor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brno
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeropotentate View Post
Jagr sits at 199 playoff points. Only 4 others have more: Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Gretzky.
Yep. Most playoff points out of all those who never played for the 1980's Oilers. It's quite amazing if you think about it.

Rexor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 12:02 PM
  #11
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Yeah he doesn't really have that one great playoff run. His 91 and 92 runs had some key moments. But he only scored 13 points in 20 games in the first Cup - tied with Phil Bourque for 13th on the team.

In the 2nd Cup run he was better with 24 points in 21 games, but considering the high scoring era those aren't especially great numbers and he was 4th on the team in scoring.

Outside of that 23 points in 18 games is his best in a significant amount of games in 1995-1996. But again considering the era the numbers aren't exactly amazing there, Sakic had 34 points in 22 games that season.
In '91, besides that critical OT goal I posted which helped propel them on their run, he tied or set record for most assists in SCF of any rookie in history. No, he wasn't the main factor or anything close to that, but remember this was a 19 y/o rookie Jagr, fresh from overseas, and stuck on the 3rd line with no PP time. Given the context, he did pretty well I'd say.

Now '92 was a whole different story. It was he, Francis, and Barrasso that kept them from getting bounced after Mario was intentionally injured early in the series vs. the Rangers. If you watch the clips from "Against All Odds" that I posted, it's obvious that he was a big factor. Yes, 4th on the team in playoff scoring... at age 20, in his second year... behind Lemieux, Lemieux's main man Stevens, and Francis. He also led the league in ES goals during the playoffs, including some of the GWG's mentioned and shown in those clips. Again, he then tied the first game of the SCF vs. Chicago, very late in the third period, with a magnificient goal, to help avoid losing game 1 at home, which would have given Chicago a dozen wins in a row in the playoffs. I'm not really sure what more could have been expected of him during that playoff run, given the circumstances.

That was a young Jagr.

An old Jagr helped Nylander finish 3rd in playoff PPG in '07 (first among those who played at least two rounds)... while he himself led the playoffs in points after two rounds in '08 (and was final leader in PO PPG that year).

A peak/prime Jagr ('95-'00) was a consistent, elite scorer in the playoffs. If you look at his PPG, clutch goals/points, and plus-minus on those relatively very weak Pens teams in the playoffs, there's no basis for saying he was anything but an outstanding playoff performer. I really don't think Forsberg or Sakic had anything on Jagr as peak playoff performers, only played on better teams that of course often went further. I would take any of the 3 over Crosby in the playoffs, without hesitation.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 01:32 PM
  #12
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I would take any of the 3 over Crosby in the playoffs, without hesitation.
As always, thru 9 seasons is the appropriate context in which to compare Jagr specifically to Crosby and I don't see how you can make a case for Jagr over Crosby in the playoffs thru 9 seasons.

1.05 PPG vs. 1.20 PPG for starters plus peak runs of 31 and 27 points.

daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 02:19 PM
  #13
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
As always, thru 9 seasons is the appropriate context in which to compare Jagr specifically to Crosby and I don't see how you can make a case for Jagr over Crosby in the playoffs thru 9 seasons.

1.05 PPG vs. 1.20 PPG for starters plus peak runs of 31 andu 27 points.
That's assuming he hasn't peaked already.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 04:12 PM
  #14
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,082
vCash: 500
Jagr was much better in the playoffs than he generally gets credit for, in his prime he was far above a point per game and I believe he had pretty good +/-.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 04:31 PM
  #15
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,032
vCash: 500
I don't understand how people can call Jagr's Pens "weak team.". Jagr, Lemieux, Straka, Kovalev, Lang, Morozov -- all excellent players! Pens underachieved like crazy -- that's another story.

Sentinel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 04:37 PM
  #16
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
That's assuming he hasn't peaked already.
Who Crosby? If he has then his career playoff PPG will decrease but that won't change the fact that his playoff peak was higher than Jagr's. Just like Jagr's regular season peak is higher thru 9 seasons.

daver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 06:09 PM
  #17
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Who Crosby? If he has then his career playoff PPG will decrease but that won't change the fact that his playoff peak was higher than Jagr's. Just like Jagr's regular season peak is higher thru 9 seasons.
Things are a lot more imbalanced in the playoffs: the number of games (or opportunity to play at all) is highly dependent on the quality of one's own team... the schedule is imbalanced... etc.

Saying Crosby's playoff peak is higher is your way of saying "Crosby was fortunate to be on a very good team where he also got plenty of playing time, including PP time." There was nothing in Crosby's performance in '08 or '09 that suggests to me that he was better than Jagr was throughout his prime in the playoffs.

I watched them play in the '08 playoffs, and Jagr was by far the best forward in that series, despite being on the much worse team and being 36 y/o. In '12, Jagr at age 40 may still have had as much net positive impact on the series as Crosby. Most who watched that series would remember Jagr's key assist where he was fending off a defender with one arm and keeping control of the puck with the other... while the entire Pens' team is just standing there agape, wondering what the 40 y/o is going to do and what they should try to do to stop him.

Jagr always had a knack for showing up when the chips were down and commanded the respect of opponents in a way that Crosby has only glimpsed for fleeting moments.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 06:29 PM
  #18
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexor View Post
Yep. Most playoff points out of all those who never played for the 1980's Oilers. It's quite amazing if you think about it.
Yet his PPG in the playoffs place him 36th all-time and goals per game he's 69th.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:02 PM
  #19
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Yet his PPG in the playoffs place him 36th all-time and goals per game he's 69th.
Right, because most players play most of their playoff games:

A) in the DPE
B) for mediocre/weak teams, and therefore mostly against stronger teams
C) before age 22 and at age 34 or older, not in between those ages or during their "prime"

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:12 PM
  #20
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Right, because most players play most of their playoff games:

A) in the DPE
B) for mediocre/weak teams, and therefore mostly against stronger teams
C) before age 22 and at age 34 or older, not in between those ages or during their "prime"
I was simply replying to the poster who thought it was quite amazing that Jagr had more playoff points than any non-80sOilers.

Not amazing, just a matter of playing a lot of playoff games. Only 8 forwards ever played more.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:24 PM
  #21
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I was simply replying to the poster who thought it was quite amazing that Jagr had more playoff points than any non-80sOilers.

Not amazing, just a matter of playing a lot of playoff games. Only 8 forwards ever played more.
So you don't think playing so many games outside of his prime (first 2 playoffs and last 2) hurt his PPG?

Before Jagr came back from the KHL, his PPG was in the top 10 for players who had played more than 100 games in the playoffs. In fact prior to coming back from Russia, Jagr had 181 Pts in 169 games (PPG of 1.07). That is impressive isn't it considerin he played a lot of games during the DPE?

As a matter of fact, his 1.07 PPG would have placed him in the same ballpark as Hull and Beliveau (who are both perceived as all-time greats).

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:29 PM
  #22
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,352
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
So you don't think playing so many games outside of his prime (first 2 playoffs and last 2) hurt his PPG?

Before Jagr came back from the KHL, his PPG was in the top 10 for players who had played more than 100 games in the playoffs. In fact prior to coming back from Russia, Jagr had 181 Pts in 169 games (PPG of 1.07). That is impressive isn't it consider he played a lot of games during the DPE?
I don't recall stating that. I'd imagine that would be true for many players, though.

Perhaps, but not amazing.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:35 PM
  #23
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I don't recall stating that. I'd imagine that would be true for many players, though.

Perhaps, but not amazing.
So Beliveau and Hull weren't amazing?

Plain and simple, Jagr had the 3rd best playoff PPG of the DPE if you remove Lemieux (Sakic and Forsberg were 1 and 2 and they had each other), and since this board is obsessed with primes and peaks and PPG's, isn't it amazing? Players like Federov, Yzerman, Modano who are considered playoff heroes had worse PPG's than Jagr did during the DPE.

I suggest you take Jagr's PPG before he came back from the KHL and compare it to any player ahead of him at the time. I will give you a hint, there weren't 10 players who played as many or more games and who had a better PPG.

There was Wayne, Mario, Messier, Bossy, Kurri, Stastny, Sakic, Forsberg....

Steve Yzerman is even lower than Jagr on the list, I don't see anyone discrediting him.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:36 PM
  #24
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,189
vCash: 500
Anyways, good playoff resume, but it is missing that one really strong deep playoff run that most similar players have had at least once.

Beau Knows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-30-2014, 07:40 PM
  #25
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Anyways, good playoff resume, but it is missing that one really strong deep playoff run that most similar players have had at least once.
In who's eyes?

Crosby's oft brought up Cup run where he scored 31 Pts saw him only garner a PPG of 1.29.

In comparison, in 1995-96, Jagr's PPG was 1.28 (3rd best in the entire playoffs behind Lemieux and Sakic).

Jagr had many instances where he led the entire playoffs in PPG, 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06 being prime examples of this. I think you refuse to acknowledge the fact that having a strong playoff run always requires being placed in a position to do so. Crosby had 3 Pts in 7 games BTW in that Finals appearance where he scored 31 Pts.


Last edited by livewell68: 07-30-2014 at 07:47 PM.
livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.