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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Sakic/Forsberg vs Crosby/Malkin

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Old
07-30-2014, 12:38 AM
  #76
livewell68
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Weird, since Detroit had more PP opportunities than Pittsburgh did in the 2009 finals. Seems like the refs weren't doing a very good job fixing the series. I wonder why they didn't call the obvious play where Zetterberg covered the puck with his glove in the crease on a Crosby attempt. You would think in a fixed series the refs would catch that one, but somehow they didn't. But please whine more.
I'm not whining, simply discussing events.

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07-30-2014, 12:41 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I'm not whining, simply discussing events.
You are complaining about a call from 6 years ago in a series Pittsburgh won in 5 games. Good thing the Penguins had the refs on their side that year because they really needed them losing a total of 2 games on the way to the Finals.

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07-30-2014, 12:47 AM
  #78
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Comparing the success of the Avs and Penguins just because of the centre combo is ridiculous. The Penguins with Patrick Roy in net instead of Fleury is a very, very different animal, let alone the depth that the Avalanche had.

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07-30-2014, 12:53 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I'm not whining, simply discussing events.
By the way, here is a video of that game:



The penalty was taken on Malone, not Crosby who wasn't even on the ice at the time. Crosby drew 0 penalties in that game. Here is the box score:

http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2007030225

The Rangers killed the penalty and the Penguins scored at even strength almost 5 minutes after that.

Calls in the series:
PIT - 32 penalties
NYR - 29 penalties

So to recap, the Penguins won the series in 5 games and didn't even score on the PP you are complaining about from 6 years ago where the Rangers had more PP opportunities in the series.


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-30-2014 at 01:02 AM.
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Old
07-30-2014, 02:04 AM
  #80
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Ask me again in 10 years.

That said, there's certainly an advantage to the Avalanche pairing being in a situation where the team was able to surround them with so much talent while the Pens now operate in a salary cap environment.

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07-30-2014, 02:05 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
So to recap, the Penguins won the series in 5 games and didn't even score on the PP you are complaining about from 6 years ago where the Rangers had more PP opportunities in the series.
The Pens were the better team, they deserved to win.

My only grudge from that series was Orpik, who hit Jagr high and I thought a bit late after his goal in game 4 (?). That was also the series where Jagr called out Crosby for diving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Weird, since Detroit had more PP opportunities than Pittsburgh did in the 2009 finals. Seems like the refs weren't doing a very good job fixing the series. I wonder why they didn't call the obvious play where Zetterberg covered the puck with his glove in the crease on a Crosby attempt. You would think in a fixed series the refs would catch that one, but somehow they didn't. But please whine more.
The refs have been horrible for as long as I can remember. They blow calls and miss things all the time, and are inconsistent.

What made the missed too many men on the ice call so unusual, was that they didn't miss it. No, they caught it, but then instructed a Pens player to go back to the bench while the clock was running. That's a bit unusual, wouldn't you say? I mean, this wasn't a split second change gone wrong with play at center ice... this was the Pens controlling the puck on the power play and the refs blatantly helping them, rather than following the rules.

Anyways, my question still stands: Who was the best team the Pens beat (or what was their most impressive series win) in the Eastern Conference playoffs, since Crosby entered the league?

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07-30-2014, 02:21 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
No, they caught it, but then instructed a Pens player to go back to the bench while the clock was running. That's a bit unusual, wouldn't you say?.
Link?

Also why did Detroit get more PPs in the series if the refs were so biased? And wouldn't this ruin the integrity of the refs for every season in history? Or was the league and/or the refs only biased in that one year, somehow?


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-30-2014 at 02:28 AM.
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Old
07-30-2014, 05:30 AM
  #83
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Ask me again in 10 years.

That said, there's certainly an advantage to the Avalanche pairing being in a situation where the team was able to surround them with so much talent while the Pens now operate in a salary cap environment.
As always these types of comparisons need a grain of salt. Sakic and Forsberg get credit for seasons and playoffs when they were well into their 30's. A more reasonable comparison would be through 8 seasons of playing together.

If that were the case then it's likely Crosby/Malkin on both peak and prime.

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07-30-2014, 05:59 AM
  #84
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Aside from trophy counting (which is unfair to Forsberg and Sakic since they played during Jagr, Hasek and Lemieux' primes), Sakic and Forsberg were both better all-around players than Crosby is and offensively they were very close with Sakic being a superior goal scorer and playoff player.
You need to show some numbers to backup the Sakic claim and whether it's peak or prime.

A prime Sakic had a 1.26 PPG and a 0.50 GPG while a prime Crosby has a 1.40 PPG and 0.50 GPG. Factor in the higher scoring era for half a Sakic's #'s and Crosby is clearly the better offensive player and better goalscorer.

Crosby has a higher prime playoff PPG while Sakic had the higher peak.

And how much do weigh all-around play in rating them? Is Forsberg's and Sakic's advantage in 2-way play over Crosby as much as their advantage over a player who was much more reknowned for being offensive-minded like Jagr?

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07-30-2014, 09:33 AM
  #85
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Since I expect I won't be given a link to a source showing how the linesmen told Scuderi to get off the ice. Here is what actually happened from the Penguins Stanley Cup DVD:



Skip to 43:45. Scuderi is told by the Penguins bench, not the linesmen to get off the ice. In fact the Penguins bench were the only ones who noticed that there were too many men after Guerin alerted the coaching staff. So they tried to alert Scuderi without the refs or the Red Wings bench hearing them. They succeeded and Scuderi got off the ice without the refs noticing.

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07-30-2014, 10:00 AM
  #86
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This is why I am not as obsessed with stats as some of the people here. Only people who don't remember the 90s can claim that Crosby and Malkin are even in the same ballpark as Feds, Y, Sakic, and Forsberg. Here is where the eye test trumps everything, IMO. There is a reason why those Wings-Avs battles were legendary and these Pens repeatedly fail to make conference finals in the East.

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07-30-2014, 10:02 AM
  #87
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Not even in the same ballpark?

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07-30-2014, 10:05 AM
  #88
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Not even in the same ballpark?
You are talking to a guy who think Claude Lemieux is better than Crosby.

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07-30-2014, 10:14 AM
  #89
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Apparently the majority of people who participated in the History of Hockey top 60 centers project don't remember the 90's according to Sentinel.

Here's how they ranked these players:
10. Sakic
13. Yzerman
20. Forsberg
22. Crosby
29. Fedorov
40. Malkin

Malkin has some work to do to catch Fedorov but Crosby is already ahead of him and after last season is probably ahead of Forsberg as well in my mind. Now remember that Crosby and Malkin aren't even in their 30's yet and it seems pretty obvious that they could climb higher in the coming seasons.

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07-30-2014, 10:22 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Apparently the majority of people who participated in the History of Hockey top 60 centers project don't remember the 90's according to Sentinel.

Here's how they ranked these players:
10. Sakic
13. Yzerman
20. Forsberg
22. Crosby
29. Fedorov
40. Malkin

Malkin has some work to do to catch Fedorov but Crosby is already ahead of him and after last season is probably ahead of Forsberg as well in my mind. Now remember that Crosby and Malkin aren't even in their 30's yet and it seems pretty obvious that they could climb higher in the coming seasons.
Or even drop lower.

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07-30-2014, 10:25 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Or even drop lower.
I don't see them dropping lower. Unless they both completely fall off the map. When the ranking was done, it was done taking in to account what has happened. Not what is projected to happen.

If Crosby has good longevity, with only mediocre seasons (by his standards) now on, he will likely climb in to the Sakic/Yzerman range.

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07-30-2014, 10:27 AM
  #92
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Or even drop lower.
We all know that you will be hoping so. But it certainly seems unlikely. Crosby should be a safe bet for 100 points for at least several more seasons. Malkin needs to stay healthier than he has in the last couple years. His point production is a little bit harder to predict on a year-to-year basis, but I see him winning another Art Ross or Hart by the time he is done. At least we have moved passed the poorly remember penalties from 5+ years ago stage of the argument.

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07-30-2014, 10:31 AM
  #93
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Crosby is only 27. If healthy I see at least 3 more harts art rosses and lindsays

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07-30-2014, 10:34 AM
  #94
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Crosby is only 27. If healthy I see at least 3 more harts art rosses and lindsays
That kind of projection is useless. There are numerous examples where players start to regress/improve/stay same/have injuries/have their career end/etc.
Projecting 3 more Hart's, Art's and Lindsay's to Crosby is as accurate as me saying he will end up with less than 1000 career points.

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07-30-2014, 10:37 AM
  #95
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Crosby is only 27. If healthy I see at least 3 more harts art rosses and lindsays
Hart wins are hard to predict, they have a lot to do with story lines and being in the right situation at the right time. Even outperforming your peers by a lot doesn't guarantee you the award, see Lemieux in 1989.

But I certainly see him improving his Hart trophy shares by a good amount:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Hart trophy voting record
*Updated through 2014 season
* Will have to double check but I believe this is 1947 - present only (cut-off looks reasonable as it includes Richard but not Shore)

Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth Total
Gordie Howe 6 1 5 2 1 15
Wayne Gretzky 9 1 1 1 1 13
Jean Beliveau 2 4 1 2 0 9
Bobby Hull 2 2 4 0 1 9
Mario Lemieux 3 3 1 1 0 8
Bobby Orr 3 0 4 1 0 8
Jaromir Jagr 1 4 1 1 0 7
Martin Brodeur 0 0 3 2 2 7
Guy Lafleur 2 1 1 1 1 6
Bobby Clarke 3 1 0 1 0 5
Phil Esposito 2 2 1 0 0 5
Dominik Hasek 2 1 2 0 0 5
Stan Mikita 2 1 0 1 1 5
Bryan Trottier 1 2 1 0 1 5
Maurice Richard 1 1 3 0 0 5
Ray Bourque 0 2 0 1 2 5
Patrick Roy 0 1 1 1 2 5
Doug Harvey 0 1 1 0 3 5
Glenn Hall 0 0 1 2 2 5
Alexander Ovechkin 3 1 0 0 0 4
Sidney Crosby 2 1 1 0 0 4
Andy Bathgate 1 1 1 0 1 4
Ted Kennedy 1 1 0 0 2 4
Red Kelly 0 1 1 2 0 4
Terry Sawchuk 0 0 1 2 1 4
Mark Messier 2 1 0 0 0 3
Evgeni Malkin 1 2 0 0 0 3
Jarome Iginla 1 1 1 0 0 3
Milt Schmidt 1 1 0 1 0 3
Brett Hull 1 0 2 0 0 3
Joe Thornton 1 0 0 1 1 3
Marcel Dionne 0 1 2 0 0 3
Tony Esposito 0 1 1 0 1 3
Ken Dryden 0 1 0 2 0 3
Rod Langway 0 1 0 2 0 3
Doug Gilmour 0 1 0 1 1 3
Markus Naslund 0 1 0 0 2 3
Teemu Selanne 0 0 1 0 2 3
Brad Park 0 0 0 0 3 3


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-30-2014 at 10:49 AM.
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07-30-2014, 01:45 PM
  #96
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Here are the first 9 seasons for Crosby and Forsberg in the NHL. Both players had some great season as well as some great seasons cut short by injury. So here are their actual numbers, then there paces and then their adjusted points from their actual numbers.

94-95 Forsberg:
Actual: 47GP - 50P
Pace: 87P
Adjusted: 87P

05-06 Crosby:
Actual: 81GP - 102P
Pace: 103P
Adjusted: 99P

95-96 Forsberg:
Actual: 82 GP - 116P
Pace: 116P
Adjusted: 112P

06-07 Crosby:
Actual: 79 GP - 120P
Pace: 124P
Adjusted: 122P

96-97 Forsberg:
Actual: 65GP - 86P
Pace: 108P
Adjusted: 89P

07-08 Crosby:
Actual: 53GP - 72P
Pace: 111P
Adjusted: 78P

97-98 Forsberg:
Actual: 72GP - 91P
Pace: 103P
Adjusted: 105P

08-09 Crosby:
Actual: 77GP - 103P
Pace: 109P
Adjusted: 106P

98-99 Forsberg:
Actual: 78GP - 97P
Pace: 101P
Adjusted: 110P

09-10 Crosby:
Actual: 81GP - 109P
Pace: 110P
Adjusted: 117P

99-00 Forsberg:
Actual: 49GP - 51P
Pace: 85P
Adjusted: 55P

10-11 Crosby:
Actual: 41GP - 66P
Pace: 132P
Adjusted: 71P

00-01 Forsberg:
Actual: 73GP - 89P
Pace: 99P
Adjusted: 95P

11-12 Crosby:
Actual: 22GP - 37P
Pace: 137P
Adjusted: 41P

01-02 Forsberg:
Actual: 0GP
Pace: 0P
Adjusted: 0P

12-13 Crosby:
Actual: 36GP - 56P
Pace: 127P
Adjusted: 106P

02-03 Forsberg:
Actual: 75GP - 106P
Pace: 115P
Adjusted: 118P

13-14 Crosby:
Actual: 80GP - 104P
Pace: 106P
Adjusted: 116P

-Forsberg beat Crosby 7 times in either actual, pace or adjusted. Crosby beat him 17 times, 20 if you count the season where Forsberg didn't play.

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Old
07-30-2014, 03:22 PM
  #97
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In playoffs I take Claude Lemieux over post-09 Crosby. And I most certainly take Feds over Crosby at any point of their careers (again, in playoffs).

If Crosby collapses a few more times in 2nd-3rd round, even Pens fans will rank him lower than Fedorov.

This board is obsessed with regular season numbers and awards (case point -- Mikita). I don't subscribe to this.

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07-30-2014, 05:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
In playoffs I take Claude Lemieux over post-09 Crosby. And I most certainly take Feds over Crosby at any point of their careers (again, in playoffs).

If Crosby collapses a few more times in 2nd-3rd round, even Pens fans will rank him lower than Fedorov.This board is obsessed with regular season numbers and awards (case point -- Mikita). I don't subscribe to this.
Highly doubtful.

You may personally rank him higher, but you have consistently shown your personal bias.

IIRC you are the same guy who tried to tell me that Justin Williams is a better player than Sidney Crosby...

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07-30-2014, 05:05 PM
  #99
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I take 14 PO Justine Williams over 14 PO Sidney Crosby.


Last edited by Sentinel: 07-30-2014 at 05:33 PM.
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07-30-2014, 05:27 PM
  #100
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Basically your comparison grows much much larger than just the centers that play on both teams...it becomes who flanked the wing and how the team did....


Ill take the 00-01 Stanley cup winning Avs vs the 08-09 Penguins....

For each team i will take the top 5 players and there point totals...and goaltender comparisons..


Avalanche

Sakic 118 points
Forsberg 89 points
Hejduk 79 points
Tanguay 77 points
Drury 65 points

Roy 2.21 GAA .913 SV%

Penguins

Malkin 113 points
Crosby 103 points
Staal 49 points
Sykora 46 points
Fedotenko 39 points

MAF 2.67 GAA .912 SV%

As you can see merely by this sample comparison of both Stanley cup winners via the regular season...The Crosby, Malkin Combo is stronger when it comes to stats...when compared to just Sakic and Forsberg....but the supporting cast is very weak...as indicated by MAF's GAA....The Penguins clearly gave up more shots against per game than the Avs.

Now before people jump down my throat for the crosby malkin, sakic and forsberg comparison

Crosby and malkin appeared in 159 games, combining for 216 points
Sakic and Forsberg appeared in 155 games, combining for 207 points

Crosby Malkin = 1.35 PPG
Sakic Forsberg = 1.33 PPG


TBH...Ill take Crosby and Malkin but ill take the supporting cast Sakic and Forsberg had.

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