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How is Alexander Mogilny not in the HOF?

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Old
07-29-2014, 08:26 PM
  #26
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
It's just me but I think Bure was more talented and a better player. Mogilny though is the 3rd best Russian winger post 1989 (Bure and Ovechkin being 1 and 2).
in terms of what he did, yeah bure was better. but to me, mogilny was the bigger talent. much better vision, much better playmaker, better wrist shot, almost as fast. i think the difference is mogilny had the physical tools and world class hockey IQ. not to say bure wasn't a smart player, but mogilny was a next level genius in terms of seeing the ice.

i think of what he could have done if he'd wanted to and i shake my head. of all wingers since 1990, jagr is the only guy where i can definitely say mogilny isn't as good as that guy. ovechkin is a maybe, bure is a maybe (though i'd lean towards no), selanne, iginla... can't say any of them were better than mogilny talent-wise without immediately doubting it.

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07-29-2014, 08:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
in terms of what he did, yeah bure was better. but to me, mogilny was the bigger talent. much better vision, much better playmaker, better wrist shot, almost as fast. i think the difference is mogilny had the physical tools and world class hockey IQ. not to say bure wasn't a smart player, but mogilny was a next level genius in terms of seeing the ice.

i think of what he could have done if he'd wanted to and i shake my head. of all wingers since 1990, jagr is the only guy where i can definitely say mogilny isn't as good as that guy. ovechkin is a maybe, bure is a maybe (though i'd lean towards no), selanne, iginla... can't say any of them were better than mogilny talent-wise without immediately doubting it.
Serious question but how do you feel about Kovalev's "talent"?

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07-29-2014, 08:51 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Serious question but how do you feel about Kovalev's "talent"?
overrated. wonderful stickhandler, all-world wrist shot, big frame. but i don't think he used those skills as productively as bure and mogilny used theirs. kovalev was a guy who stickhandled himself into corners. his wrist shot was maybe as hard and accurate as mogilny's and bure's, but he didn't get it off as quickly or as efficiently.

i think the difference is maybe best put this way: every now and then kovalev would do something awesome, like stickhandle through an entire team and roof it before the goalie even had a chance to set and everyone would say, "what a talent. imagine if he always tried this hard." but in actual fact, kovalev could only do that when all his ducks were in a row and the opening presented itself. bure and mogilny could create those openings for themselves.

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07-29-2014, 08:54 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
in terms of what he did, yeah bure was better. but to me, mogilny was the bigger talent. much better vision, much better playmaker, better wrist shot, almost as fast. i think the difference is mogilny had the physical tools and world class hockey IQ. not to say bure wasn't a smart player, but mogilny was a next level genius in terms of seeing the ice.
I think this is the case too. At his best, Mogilny was a more well rounded offensive threat in my opinion.

Bure definitely beat him in actual results though.

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07-29-2014, 10:36 PM
  #30
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Mogilny was a remarkable player. The problem is he was rather aloof and inconsistent. The Hall has their sentimental favorites like Neely whereas Mogilny will need to make it on merit alone.

Edit: Fedorov, Bure and Datsyuk were all better than Mogilny IMO. But Mogilny was better than Kovalev, although he wasn't as flashy.

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07-29-2014, 10:38 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
Mogilny was a remarkable player. The problem is he was rather aloof and inconsistent.
The word you're looking for is "enigmatic", as in "enigmatic Russian."

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07-29-2014, 11:04 PM
  #32
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For those who would like to revisit Alexander Mogilny's style of play, he is the other player I have released a video for thus far. I am hoping to continue the series soon.



Below is a link to the thread I posted when the video was released, detailing the kind of game Mogilny played when he was focused:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1266035

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07-29-2014, 11:57 PM
  #33
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This may not be fair, but I'll always remember him for his chance to win the Stanley Cup in overtime on a breakaway:


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07-29-2014, 11:58 PM
  #34
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I just think if you let guys like Bernie Federko and Clarke Gillies in, then Mogilny should get in on stats alone.
There's a thread about player intangibles elsewhere in this section. Gillies was apparently No. 4 in a 1979 coaches poll on the player they would build their team around. (Behind Lafleur, Potvin and Trottier). Ahead of Bossy, Perreault, Dionne, Clarke and Robinson. Pretty impressive. I think he's underrated by a lot of younger fans who don't realize how incredibly effective he was, how much room he opened up for Trottier and Bossy, and how skilled he was.

Would I have voted for him for the HHOF? No. His peak lasted six or seven years. He scored 67 goals over six seasons after his 28th birthday. So he didn't have longevity going for him. I would say he played at an HHOF level for six or seven years, but he wasn't at such an incredible level that you induct him on the strength of six or seven years. (Along with his four Cup rings).

But voters gave him the benefit of the doubt, in his 12th year of eligibility, because of everything he brought to the table, the type of player he was for those six or seven years, and the impact he had on a dynasty.

That being said, I'd vote for Gillies long before I would vote for Mogilny. The Mogilny name doesn't always conjure up the best of sentiments among hockey people. If you want to get a sense of how they regarded Mogilny for various times in his career, pick up a copy of the 1999 THN Draft Preview, and note how one hockey person compared Pavel Brendl to Mogilny. (Note: it's not meant as a compliment).

I don't think he'll ever get in. Too inconsistent. Too unreliable. Too many games and seasons in which you wanted more. A dazzling talent and a total offensive weapon who could dominate in any way you wanted, but he lacked work ethic and consistency. He was a farce his final years in Vancouver, and wasn't an impact guy that you would expect on New Jersey's Cup champion in 2000. The following year, he reminded everyone of how great he could be by scoring 43 goals (in a contract year, mind you), then had a very prolonged drought in the playoffs. His playoff record as a whole is underwhelming for a player of his ability.

The regular season numbers are great. Not as great as you would want from someone of Mogilny's skill, but still great. But he was capable of so much more. He's going to go down as an underachiever, a floater and a player you couldn't count on. The latter statement is a huge knock against a professional hockey player.

I've railed against the HHOF selection committee in the past (mostly for its small size and its procedures), but it's endearing element is that it's comprised of coaches, GMs and former players. Most of those guys know about Mogilny. And it's not hard to convince them that Mogilny doesn't belong.

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07-30-2014, 04:45 AM
  #35
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What's all the Clark Gillies bashing? Okay, he probably shouldn't be in, but IMO he was an exceptional power forward for many seasons - certainly not just a 'lucky to play on a legendary line' kind of guy.

As for Mogilny, I think he did enough... just about. Yes, I would like to see some other Russians get in first, especially Makarov.

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07-30-2014, 07:32 AM
  #36
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This may not be fair, but I'll always remember him for his chance to win the Stanley Cup in overtime on a breakaway:

I'll always remember him hitting the post in the Cup finals in 2001, then sulking rather than backchecking, while his man raced up the ice and scored.

Wish I had a video.

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07-30-2014, 07:34 AM
  #37
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Nice work. He really schooled the Avalanche on those power plays from the halfboards.

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07-30-2014, 07:34 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
If you want to get a sense of how they regarded Mogilny for various times in his career, pick up a copy of the 1999 THN Draft Preview, and note how one hockey person compared Pavel Brendl to Mogilny. (Note: it's not meant as a compliment).
Ouch!

And yet I'm not totally surprised

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07-30-2014, 07:40 AM
  #39
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He also didn't play that physical of a game. Fedorov didn't either, despite their frames. Finesse players. You only have to watch a few clips from the 89 World Juniors to notice who was the natural hustler on that line.

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07-30-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
What's all the Clark Gillies bashing? Okay, he probably shouldn't be in, but IMO he was an exceptional power forward for many seasons - certainly not just a 'lucky to play on a legendary line' kind of guy.
People who didn't see him play just look at the stats.

Gillies was a first team all star a couple of times and (along with Larry Robinson) dismantled the mystique of the Broadstreet Bullies too.

He is a weak induction because, as someone mentioned above, his longevity left something to be desired but that isn't really unusual for guys who played like him.


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As for Mogilny, I think he did enough... just about. Yes, I would like to see some other Russians get in first, especially Makarov.
I agree.. Mogilny is kind of a bubble case. He would be in already if he had been consistent.

Makarov should definitely be in already.

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07-30-2014, 10:30 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
There's a thread about player intangibles elsewhere in this section. Gillies was apparently No. 4 in a 1979 coaches poll on the player they would build their team around. (Behind Lafleur, Potvin and Trottier). Ahead of Bossy, Perreault, Dionne, Clarke and Robinson. Pretty impressive. I think he's underrated by a lot of younger fans who don't realize how incredibly effective he was, how much room he opened up for Trottier and Bossy, and how skilled he was.
At the time, Gillies' resume looked like this:
- Just turned 25 years old
- Five seasons of NHL experience
- 25+ goals in every season, with the last four all being 33+ (162 goals in five years)
- Two straight 50+ assist seasons
- 339 points in those five seasons, with 176 coming in the previous two
- Two consecutive first-team All-Star appearances

At the time, that looked like a future first-ballot HOFer with the chance to get him at age 25. He could play in all situations at a high level, something that Bossy, Dionne, and Perreault couldn't do. He wasn't thought to be a product of his team, like may have been the case with Robinson. What GM wouldn't want someone like that?

Of course, we know what happened. Gillies would only hit 55 points twice more in his career, and 25 goals twice more. He was basically done before his 29th birthday.

Quote:
Would I have voted for him for the HHOF? No. His peak lasted six or seven years. He scored 67 goals over six seasons after his 28th birthday. So he didn't have longevity going for him. I would say he played at an HHOF level for six or seven years, but he wasn't at such an incredible level that you induct him on the strength of six or seven years. (Along with his four Cup rings).

But voters gave him the benefit of the doubt, in his 12th year of eligibility, because of everything he brought to the table, the type of player he was for those six or seven years, and the impact he had on a dynasty.
In his best seasons (1974-75 to 1981-82), Gillies ranks:
- 17th in goals, behind seven non-HOFers (34 in GPG)
- 23rd in assists, behind 11 non-HOFers (48th in APG)
- 20th in points, behind seven non-HOFers (43rd in PPG)
- 7th in games played

That's cherry-picking Gillies' best years against a random clustering of other guys, several of whom were past their primes and several who weren't there yet. He's not the only power forward in that group either.

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07-30-2014, 10:36 AM
  #42
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FWIW in 1999 Mogilny's stakes were way low. He revitalized himself after being traded to the Devils.

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07-30-2014, 11:13 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
People who didn't see him play just look at the stats.

Gillies was a first team all star a couple of times
You do realize that the number of First All-Star Teams he made is itself a stat?

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07-30-2014, 12:20 PM
  #44
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Mogilny's not in the HoF the same way I'm not. Not enough votes.

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07-30-2014, 02:04 PM
  #45
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Mogilny's not in the HoF the same way I'm not. Not enough votes.
I suspect he's gotten a few more votes than you have, but we'll never actually know.

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07-30-2014, 02:22 PM
  #46
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Isn't Pat Quinn on a high horse on the committee? Didn't he say Mogilny "was the most talented player he ever coached" or something like that? And he pushed both Bure & Sundin into the Hall in 2012.

I suspect he will coup in Mogilny next year...

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07-30-2014, 02:34 PM
  #47
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I always have felt like Mogilny suffered from nagging injury issues pretty much all the time. That feeling, which wasn't based on stats, is now backed up by the fact that he only played in 77% of the games during his 16 years in the league. He never once played an entire schedule and had only 5 of 15 seasons (omitting the lockout year) where he managed to play over 70 games. I don't know the specifics of all those issues, but that has to be a factor in his productivity.

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07-30-2014, 02:49 PM
  #48
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^ I think he missed quite a bunch of games early on in his first seasons with Buffalo because of fear of flying, before all the injuries set in.

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07-30-2014, 07:40 PM
  #49
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No I wouldn't put him in. He's a guy you wish is in there already though, but I think he gets a pass with revisionist history a lot for some reason. He was a very frustrating player. It was common knowledge that he took years off unless he was in a contract year. It was a punch line. We all knew it. So all of this talk about him being in the HHOF all of the sudden is a little puzzling to me. Mogilny wasn't thought of a whole lot different than Yashin or Kovalev when it came down to reliability. You never knew what you were going to get. Just because he had HHOF talent, doesn't mean he showed it.

People are using Federko as a template. This shouldn't be. Federko, despite all of the grumblings about him, had 10 straight seasons of at least 50 assists. Gretzky broke that record but if that doesn't show you remarkable consistency, then I don't know what does. Give me Federko, reliable in the postseason, good for 100 points year after year, over the bi-polar Mogilny anyday.

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07-31-2014, 02:49 AM
  #50
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People are using Federko as a template. This shouldn't be. Federko, despite all of the grumblings about him, had 10 straight seasons of at least 50 assists. Gretzky broke that record but if that doesn't show you remarkable consistency, then I don't know what does. Give me Federko, reliable in the postseason, good for 100 points year after year, over the bi-polar Mogilny anyday.
100 year after year...in the 80's, where did he rank among his peers? Mogilny was enigmatic, but even in his ''bad'' years in Vancouver he had 45 in 51, and others that were damn near a PPG and people were calling for his head. During dead puck hockey none the less.

Hall of fame talent and HOF resume, he needs to be in.


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