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Jagr's playoff legacy

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Old
07-30-2014, 06:52 PM
  #26
Beau Knows
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
In who's eyes?

Crosby's oft brought up Cup run where he scored 31 Pts saw him only garner a PPG of 1.29.

In comparison, in 1995-96, Jagr's PPG was 1.28 (3rd best in the entire playoffs behind Lemieux and Sakic).

Jagr had many instances where he led the entire playoffs in PPG, 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06 being prime examples of this. I think you refuse to acknowledge the fact that having a strong playoff run always requires being placed in a position to do so. Crosby had 3 Pts in 7 games BTW in that Finals appearance where he scored 31 Pts.
Things tend to get tougher with each round. It would have been nice to see Jagr make a 25-30 point Finals run like Forsberg, Sakic, etc did. Sure he didn't have as many opportunities to do so as they did, but it is still something he doesn't have under his belt that some of his peers did.

Btw you can't just compare ppg from different eras like that, 1996 was higher scoring than 2009.

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07-30-2014, 06:56 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Things tend to get tougher with each round. It would have been nice to see Jagr make a 25-30 point Finals run like Forsberg, Sakic, etc did. Sure he didn't have as many opportunities to do so as they did, but it is still something he doesn't have under his belt that some of his peers did.
The parts I highlighted in bold say it all.

Forsberg had Sakic, Sakic had Forsberg.

When Lemieux retired, who did Jagr have exactly? Sakic and Forsberg are often cited as being 2 of the 5 best players of the DPE, Jagr had no one near that quality of a linemate or teammate to take pressure off of him. He was the sole target and was hounded on the ice every game and yet still put up those numbers.

If Jagr had more opportunities, I'm sure the results would have been different as well.

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07-30-2014, 06:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Things tend to get tougher with each round. It would have been nice to see Jagr make a 25-30 point Finals run like Forsberg, Sakic, etc did. Sure he didn't have as many opportunities to do so as they did, but it is still something he doesn't have under his belt that some of his peers did.

Btw you can't just compare ppg from different eras like that, 1996 was higher scoring than 2009.
The regular season was yes, but it seems like once the playoffs started, the DPE was in full effect (something that had started in 1994-95), hence why the Panthers even beat the Penguins in the ECF to begin with.

In 1995-96 there were 5.88 goals per game in the playoffs, in 2008-09 there were 5.48 goals per game, hardly a big difference.

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07-30-2014, 07:01 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
If Jagr had more opportunities, I'm sure the results would have been different as well.
Probably. But Forsberg and Sakic do have those runs on their resumes. It's better to have a 4 round 34 points post-season than a 23 point 3rd round one. Maybe Jagr scores 11 points in the finals that year if they made it and ties Sakic, but he didn't. I certainly view the 4 rounds by Sakic as better than 3 by Jagr.

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07-30-2014, 07:54 PM
  #30
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When the stats don't support Jagr, it's anecdote time.

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07-30-2014, 08:39 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Anyways, good playoff resume, but it is missing that one really strong deep playoff run that most similar players have had at least once.
We've seen Crosby disappear at critical times in physical series vs. Flyers in '12, Bruins in '13, and Rangers in '14.

If he turtles against those types of teams... well, the early 90s Bruins, Messier's Rangers, Lindros' Flyers, and Stevens' Devils would have eaten him alive, for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and dessert.

If you really want to portray Crosby as the better peak playoff performer, that's fine, but most of us who've seen both of these greats play in the playoffs know who was the warrior and who was the wimp.

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07-30-2014, 08:40 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
So Beliveau and Hull weren't amazing?

Plain and simple, Jagr had the 3rd best playoff PPG of the DPE if you remove Lemieux (Sakic and Forsberg were 1 and 2 and they had each other), and since this board is obsessed with primes and peaks and PPG's, isn't it amazing? Players like Federov, Yzerman, Modano who are considered playoff heroes had worse PPG's than Jagr did during the DPE.

I suggest you take Jagr's PPG before he came back from the KHL and compare it to any player ahead of him at the time. I will give you a hint, there weren't 10 players who played as many or more games and who had a better PPG.

There was Wayne, Mario, Messier, Bossy, Kurri, Stastny, Sakic, Forsberg....

Steve Yzerman is even lower than Jagr on the list, I don't see anyone discrediting him.
You seem to have a major problem following my point.

Clearly you have an agenda to follow for Mr. Jagr. Anything not a pat on the back is taken as a slap in the face. Time for me to bow out of this tunnel vision discussion.

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07-30-2014, 10:20 PM
  #33
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Crosbys 27 points in 20 games 1.35 ppg is above anything jagr ever did in the playoffs. He led them to the cup finals as a 20 year old

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07-30-2014, 11:22 PM
  #34
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Crosbys 27 points in 20 games 1.35 ppg is above anything jagr ever did in the playoffs. He led them to the cup finals as a 20 year old
... and lost. Malkin's point totals weren't too bad either now were they?

Jagr's had 4 playoffs in which his PPG was better, most recently as a 36 years in 2008.

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07-30-2014, 11:22 PM
  #35
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Jagr`s stats in the conference/cup finals: 42 games, 6 goals, 21 assists, 27 points, broken down as follows:

1991 and 1992 (limited ice time, particularly on the powerplay, on a deep team): 20 games, 5 goals, 11 assists, 16 points

1996 (Conference Finals against Florida): 7 games, 1 goal, 4 assits, 6 points

2001 (Conference Finals against New Jersey - while injured): 5 games, 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points

2013 (while obviously past his prime): 10 games, 0 goals, 6 assists, 6 points

Jagr's playoff legacy, particularly in the later rounds, is hard to read. He scored at a 53 point pace in those two rounds, but, as I've shown, almost all of those games were when he was before/past his prime or injured. It's surprising that Jagr had just one healthy, prime series, past the second round, in his entire career. His play was average that series, but we're really basing his body of work on one seven game stretch. I certainly wouldn`t rate Jagr a poor performer in the Conference/Cup finals, but I`d likely give him an ``incomplete`` rating - we just didn`t see enough of him (while healthy and in his prime) to really see how he performed during the last two rounds of the playoffs.

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07-30-2014, 11:33 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
We've seen Crosby disappear at critical times in physical series vs. Flyers in '12, Bruins in '13, and Rangers in '14.

If he turtles against those types of teams... well, the early 90s Bruins, Messier's Rangers, Lindros' Flyers, and Stevens' Devils would have eaten him alive, for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and dessert.

If you really want to portray Crosby as the better peak playoff performer, that's fine, but most of us who've seen both of these greats play in the playoffs know who was the warrior and who was the wimp.
Crosby had 8 points in 6 games against the Flyers, better than a lot of Jagr's series.

We saw Jagr score 5 points in 7 games against the '93 Islanders (not exactly a juggernaut) and go pointless in 5 games against the '01 Devils. Let's not pretend Jagr didn't have his share of difficult series.

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07-31-2014, 12:59 AM
  #37
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I don't understand how people can call Jagr's Pens "weak team.". Jagr, Lemieux, Straka, Kovalev, Lang, Morozov -- all excellent players! Pens underachieved like crazy -- that's another story.
Straka and Lang were castaways before coming to the Jagr Pens.
Straka's career was basically Jagr-ressurrected and then later improved on in NY.
Morozov was just about to become the player he was supposed to be when the lockout hit, and he stayed in Russia.

Mario was out for the bigger part.

Regardless, which Pens year are we talking about?

Even in 2001, when Mario came back, they had no real chance vs NJ in the ECF:

Hans Jonsson, Ian Moran, A. Ference (rookie), Bob Boughner, Janne Laukkannen.

This was their D. I can't recall any D as poor as that actually making it to a Conference Final.

Not to mention the 1999 Penguins which beat the #1 NJ team.
With German Titov, Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina playing with Jagr, etc.
Straka had 80ish points that year playing with Jagr, Titov was 3rd on the team with 50ish.

If you think those Pens team underachieved, I honestly don't think you watched them back then.
They were carried by Jagr and then later he had the KLS line to help.
But they had bad bottom-6, horrible D and very mediocre goaltending with an aging, often-injured Barrasso.

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07-31-2014, 03:32 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Crosby had 8 points in 6 games against the Flyers, better than a lot of Jagr's series.

We saw Jagr score 5 points in 7 games against the '93 Islanders (not exactly a juggernaut) and go pointless in 5 games against the '01 Devils. Let's not pretend Jagr didn't have his share of difficult series.
Crosby disappeared and acted out for much of the 2012 series vs. the Flyers. He scored a couple of nice goals in a 6 games series filled with them, but other than that wasn't really a factor.

Jagr didn't have a great series vs. the Islanders, but that was before his prime, and there was certainly plenty of blame to go around for that upset.

The 2001 ECF was a case of Jagr being injured to the point of being completely ineffective, and a Pens team that already overachieved by upsetting the Caps and beating Hasek's Sabres going up against the vaunted defense of the Devils. Even with a healthy Jagr, I wouldn't expect that series to go more than 5 games, the Devils were just that good and the Pens that mediocre.

I'm not saying Jagr didn't have some mediocre series, but he always showed up when not severely injured (and often even when he was) and was a force to be reckoned with. He never had close to the stretch of often mediocre play that Crosby has the past 4 playoffs. Even at age 19 or age 41, at least he was trying his damnedest and contributed at some crucial times. He didn't self-destruct.

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07-31-2014, 04:00 AM
  #39
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Since this is turning into a Crosby vs Jagr thread (again...), add my vote as someone who thinks the only thing Jagr has on Crosby in the playoffs is quantity.

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07-31-2014, 06:54 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
If Jagr had more opportunities, I'm sure the results would have been different as well.
Based on what exactly? As pointed out he never played in the later rounds in his prime, aside from the one time where he was injured (which btw should be applied to Crosby's past playoff), so we don't know how he would have performed.

"Incomplete" sounds like a good term to apply to Jagr in terms of his playoff legacy. Similar to applying "incomplete" to Crosby's injured seasons.

IMO, assuming he would have kept is PPG at the same rate in later rounds is the same as assuming Crosby would have finished his injury shortened seasons with a peak point total. Both were probable and reasonable assumptions but you can't give them credit for something they didn't achieve.

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07-31-2014, 09:19 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
We've seen Crosby disappear at critical times in physical series vs. Flyers in '12, Bruins in '13, and Rangers in '14.
Not sure why you and livewell bring up Crosby in every Jagr thread and Jagr in every other thread on the site.

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07-31-2014, 09:32 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Not sure why you and livewell bring up Crosby in every Jagr thread and Jagr in every other thread on the site.
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since this is turning into a Crosby vs Jagr thread (again...)
To be fair, it's actually in the OP:

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His closest current rival, Crosby, has him beat in playoff peak already regardless of how the rest of his career goes.

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07-31-2014, 10:42 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
To be fair, it's actually in the OP:
The context in the OP was that like other all-time greats (assuming he reaches that status), Crosby has two big playoff runs, something Jagr lacks. I don't think that should open up a discussion on playoff performances other than that as I clearly indicated Jagr's playoff performance met expectations but I'll leave that to the Mods to decide.

For example, Sakic gets a lot of credit for his 18 goal, 34 point run which tends to gloss over his performances in other years which compared to Jagr arguably could be rated lower.

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07-31-2014, 03:56 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
Not sure why you and livewell bring up Crosby in every Jagr thread and Jagr in every other thread on the site.
From the OP:

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Originally Posted by daver View Post
His closest current rival, Crosby, has him beat in playoff peak already regardless of how the rest of his career goes.
It's natural that some of the best recent forwards' names get mentioned in relation to one another (Forsberg/Jagr, Jagr/Crosby, Forsberg/Crosby, etc.). I simply try to set the record straight, rather than let others promote myths that suit their agendas.

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07-31-2014, 04:04 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
The context in the OP was that like other all-time greats (assuming he reaches that status), Crosby has two big playoff runs, something Jagr lacks. I don't think that should open up a discussion on playoff performances other than that as I clearly indicated Jagr's playoff performance met expectations but I'll leave that to the Mods to decide.

For example, Sakic gets a lot of credit for his 18 goal, 34 point run which tends to gloss over his performances in other years which compared to Jagr arguably could be rated lower.
Sakic gets an amazing amount of credit for his big playoff runs.
It just happened that his best playoff runs came after his best regular seasons (not saying it's complete coincidence necessarily, just that it's rather fortunate to have that happen).

I think Sakic, Forsberg, and Jagr were all amazing playoff performers. Fedorov and Lindros were no slouches either. If there were players who could have maybe done a bit more, it was Selanne & Kariya IMO. However, one has to consider how bad their teams were... I mean, they were even worse than Jagr's, which when talking about playoff teams is saying something. Still, Paul & Teemu didn't exactly tear it up in the playoffs during the DPE.

If you told me that for one game or series or playoffs, that my team could have one of Sakic, Forsberg or Jagr (at random) and the other team could have one of Ovechkin, Crosby or Malkin (again, at random)... I would not feel my team would have a significant disadvantage... and most likely have an advantage.

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07-31-2014, 06:37 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
It's natural that some of the best recent forwards' names get mentioned in relation to one another (Forsberg/Jagr, Jagr/Crosby, Forsberg/Crosby, etc.). I simply try to set the record straight, rather than let others promote myths that suit their agendas.
Which record needs setting straight? It's not a matter of opinion, it's facts. Crosby had two Cup final runs that were superior to Jagr's cup runs. Jagr does not have a big playoff cup final number on his resume compared to other notable players and it's nothing but speculation that he would have a comparable big number if his team went to the finals in his prime. Even Jagr's best non-cup run in '96 wasn't as good as Crosby's three round totals in 08 and 09 even with a Mario asterix.

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07-31-2014, 07:17 PM
  #47
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Which record needs setting straight? It's not a matter of opinion, it's facts. Crosby had two Cup final runs that were superior to Jagr's cup runs. Jagr does not have a big playoff cup final number on his resume compared to other notable players and it's nothing but speculation that he would have a comparable big number if his team went to the finals in his prime. Even Jagr's best non-cup run in '96 wasn't as good as Crosby's three round totals in 08 and 09 even with a Mario asterix.
PPG finishes in playoff, per HR.com:

Jagr- 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6
Crosby- 2, 2, 3, 4

Of course, one of Jagr's third place finishes, he elevated his linemate Nylander to 1st... and when he finished 6th, he elevated his linemate Francis to 2nd.

Yes, Crosby has more raw points in one playoff season.
If you think that makes him superior to Jagr as a playoff performer, you are entitled to your opinion.

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07-31-2014, 08:42 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
PPG finishes in playoff, per HR.com:

Jagr- 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6
Crosby- 2, 2, 3, 4
Those are pretty close considering Crosby has only played 9 seasons, with only 7 of those in the playoffs.

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07-31-2014, 08:45 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
PPG finishes in playoff, per HR.com:

Jagr- 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6
Crosby- 2, 2, 3, 4

Of course, one of Jagr's third place finishes, he elevated his linemate Nylander to 1st... and when he finished 6th, he elevated his linemate Francis to 2nd.

Yes, Crosby has more raw points in one playoff season.
If you think that makes him superior to Jagr as a playoff performer, you are entitled to your opinion.
That wasn't my necessarily opinion but since you brought it up, you then must give Crosby credit for regular season PPG finishes of 1.61 and 1.56 and a higher peak than Jagr, right?

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07-31-2014, 08:50 PM
  #50
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He was no Lafleur that's for sure, regardless of team strenght.

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